Catholics Blame Gays for their Pedophile Problem

[Father Heathen]

I can understand an unhealthy desire being a mental sickness, but when they make the choice to act upon those desires in a way that harms innocent people, then they are to be held fully responsible and accountable for their actions.

 

[ChrisP]

On a related note... Todays opinion cartoon from Tom Scott (pretty well known " 'round here

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[The Voice of Reason]

I understand what you are saying, unfortunately due to my education I cannot agree with you. Paedophila is a mental illness, people with a mental illness are not really responsible for their actions, which in no way shape or form, should be interpreted as, they should not be held accountable for their actions. Only that the mental illness must be taken into consideration, and will be by any civilised court.

Paedophila most probably repulses me, more than it does you, unless like me you have had to help these children regain a normal life again and seen the devastation first hand. Not just with the victims but on their whole family.

This notwithstanding, I don't always succeed in helping the victims before they do themselves more personal harm. A young boy I was seeing (19), had been raped multiple times by his step-father, this caused him severe aggression problems to which he would take it out on every male who looked sideways at him or he personally thought were making advances toward him. Needless to say, one victim made many other victims and he ended up in court for his trouble and is now in gaol. The point to this, irrespective of psychological reports in court, in most cases they will be ignored, albeit will always be taken into consideration, and due to my report, the boy did get a lighter sentence. This though wasn't much compensation for his victims, who truly believed in their eyes, I was an apologetic for voilent and abusive people who don't belong in society.

While I appreciate your insinuating that your education somehow makes your opinion more valid than mine, I will say this once again. Like Father Heathen (and a couple of others), I simply do not care if the pedophile gets mistreated (to any degree) while he is incarcerated. I do not care if his sheets are not washed twice weekly. I do not care if he has poor dental hygene. I do not care if he isn't provided a well lighted reading area. I do not care if they have to wear argyle socks with wingtipped shoes.

Get it? I don't care. Can you follow that?

I don't want the scumbags released back into society. Not in five years, not in ten years, not in twenty years. Not ever. And I don't care what happens to them in the meantime, while they wait to die.

I appreciate your efforts as a mental health care professional, in treating the victims of these crimes. I wish the absolute best of luck in trying to heal the wounded psyches of these horrendous crimes. I have tremendous sympathy for the victims.

On the other hand, the pedophile himself (or herself) has, in my view, completely surrendered any footing from which to plead for leniency.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

So the progressive thing to do would be to just let them prey upon children with impunity rather than hold them accountable and make the face the repercussions? Seriously, why should they be protected from being on the receiving end of the very thing they've dealt to others? What better way for them to come to understand the damage they've done to others? how do they not deserve it? How do they not owe it to their victims? Views like yours do a great disservice to the victims, as you want to brush their pain, which will be with them until the day they die, right under the rug. Indifference and inaction is not progression. Rationalize your stance.

Could you point out exactly where I said they should get off 'scot-free?'

Of course these gentlemen should be punished but I don't think having them raped is the way to go because it uttelry defeats its own purpose. It's the same with the Death penalty: You have done (so and so) and we will now show you that (so and so) is wrong by having you (so and so)ed.

In all reality how exactly will these men being raped and molested have any impact on their victim's pain? Is it to be expected that the children will be relieved that their offender has been raped? Will the children have to watch? Will there be a legal "Rapist?" as there is an executioner? Or will these men have to be fondled by the children they've molested in the past? Will there be like a weekely raping program that these men will have to go to or is it just one session after which hooray, they're cured, they'll never rape again? This solution might actualy propel them to molest and rape again. Or do you propose that they're raped and then stuck in prison? In that case what's the purpose of rape other than just to be spiteful?

No.This "solution" is not justice, it is revenge and it is taking a step down to the level of the pedophile in the first place. I'm not brushing aside the victim's pain, but I am saying that the offenders are humans too, they've made mistakes and should be punished for them, but they should not be dehumanized as they have dehumanized their victims. Counseling should be given to the victims as their offender rots in jail.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

I'm not saying that "we should let people die of cancer". I'm saying that, personally, I don't see any benefit in trying to rehabilitate a serial pedophile that has made a conscious decision that their personal satisfaction is a higher priority than the well being of a child that cannot defend himself (or herself).

I don't really care if 10, 20, or 30 years later, some psychiatrist feels like these people have "learned their lesson". In my view, these people have conceded their right to live among a civil society. I'm not remotely interested in their well being - mental or physical.

On a side note, you seem to be struggling with referring to these people as "pedophiles". I'm working on the assumption that you feel as repulsed by the idea of someone abusing a deaf six year old boy as much as I am. The difference appears to be that you think of this as some sort of "speed bump" that can be overcome with time. I do not.

I can agree with much of this, Voice. I believe that those who rape, kill, or try to at least should be locked up till death, but I also believe that NO ONE should be raped or killed.

 

[Father Heathen]

They "owe it" to their victims? How will it help the situation of the victims one iota to have their attackers raped?

Knowing that their attacker got a dose of their own medicine would give the victim some satisfaction that would help them in healing, coping and finding closure. Obviously. Also, by being on the receiving end of what they did to others, the offender would come to understand firsthand the damage that they themselves caused and its lasting impact. It would be part of an important learning process. Now I'm not saying this should be some sort mandated legal process. That would be too macabre even for me, but if it were to happen, I wouldn't shed tears.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

... Of course these gentlemen ...

I think I'm beginning to see where we part ways, nonbeliever.

No.This "solution" is not justice, it is revenge and it is taking a step down to the level of the pedophile in the first place. I'm not brushing aside the victim's pain, but I am saying that the offenders are humans too, they've made mistakes and should be punished for them, but they should not be dehumanized as they have dehumanized their victims. Counseling should be given to the victims as their offender rots in jail.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, on where "justice" ends and "revenge" begins. Personally, I don't really care what term you use for how these pedophiles are treated. As for "taking a step down to the level of the pedophile", I don't see our actions as being anywhere near the same level as theirs. Then again, I'm biased.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

I can agree with much of this, Voice. I believe that those who rape, kill, or try to at least should be locked up till death, but I also believe that NO ONE should be raped or killed.

Fair enough.

 

[Father Heathen]

Of course these gentlemen should be punished but I don't think having them raped is the way to go because it uttelry defeats its own purpose. It's the same with the Death penalty: You have done (so and so) and we will now show you that (so and so) is wrong by having you (so and so)ed.

If someone threw a rock through your windshield, wouldn't you want restitution to fix it? Or would that bring you down to the vandal's level? If someone stole money from you, would taking that money back from them defeat the purpose? Your logic makes no sense to me.

but they should not be dehumanized as they have dehumanized their victims.

I haven't heard a good reason why not. When someone denies or violates any right of another person, their own should be forfeit.

 

[Father Heathen]

And what is justice if not revenge? I always saw them as interchangeable.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

And what is justice if not revenge? I always saw them as interchangeable.

If any component of justice involves punishment, then it is also revenge.

 

[AxisMundi]

That is YOUR definition of justice. MY definition of justice is seeing that the perpetrator of a crime pays a penalty that is equivalent to the crime they committed.


Again, you are using YOUR definition. I reject your working definition of the term "revenge". Why not use the definition that is found at Merriam Webster's website? If you wish to define the term ourselves, then I'll go with "an act of retribution intended to inflict pain or damage". Notice that, unlike your definition, mine does not invoke emotion, impugn the mental capacity of the person (or group) exacting the revenge, or address the "amount" of punishment. Going by your definition, how would someone seek revenge for the intentional murder of a family member? I mean, how could I possibly "inflict punishment far in excess" of murder? When you say "unthinking", you imply that revenge is always an act committed in the heat of the moment. When the state excutes a serial killer, it is most definitely a thinking response. It takes place (in the vast majority of cases) decades after the act.


That is what YOU are calling for. I'm calling for as brutal existence as possible for these scumbags. I couldn't possibly care less about the quality of their lives, nor do I care to have the state put even one penny into trying to rehabilitate them. For me, they relinquished all claims to having "rights" when they chose to abuse children. To hell with them, and to hell with their souls.


Well, to be honest, I haven't called for the anal rape of these people, but if that happens, then so be it. I truly don't care if they live beyond the first 24 hours in prison, nor do I care how they die. I don't care what their living conditions are, and I don't care if their cellmates are twisted, demented killers.

About the only response I can give is...


We are not barbarians, we are supposed to be a civilized society.

 

[AxisMundi]

Just to be certain I understand you - are you saying that in your mind, locking a man in a room is a fair act of justice, in response to his having raped, beaten and abused a defenseless child?

A second question - are you espousing the rehabilitation of these people, or are you saying we should just lock them up for a long time?

What I advocate for prisons, and child rapists, is perhaps off topic and a matter for another thread.

I will say I am no supporter of the failed "rehabilitation" idea, and consider it a facade for Big Corp to make money with our current prison system.

Prison is no deterent, indeed it acts as as initiation right among a few American subcultures, and it is known to promote institutionalization in some people. And it certainly acts as no deterent to pedophiles either, many of whom get out merely to commit more atrocities.

 

[AxisMundi]

If any component of justice involves punishment, then it is also revenge.

If I set my granddaughter in the corner for a timeout, is that revenge or punishment?

 

[nonbeliever_92]

If someone threw a rock through your windshield, wouldn't you want restitution to fix it? Or would that bring you down to the vandal's level? If someone stole money from you, would taking that money back from them defeat the purpose? Your logic makes no sense to me.

If someone threw a rock through my windshield I probably won't throw a rock through there's in return because revenge is childish. I'd report them to the police and they will have to pay for it. Yes I'd seek that they are punished but why make a fool out of myself by doing to them what they've done to me? If someone raped me I'm not gonna go out and rape them in return, that's dumb and rape's wrong.

I haven't heard a good reason why not. When someone denies or violates any right of another person, their own should be forfeit.

This is where you're lost. I don't believe in and eye for an eye.I believe if someone violates another's rights, there rights shall be taken away, not violated in turn.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

About the only response I can give is...


We are not barbarians, we are supposed to be a civilized society.

Palm your face all you will. If my desire to see these people punished for their insidious crimes against children bothers you, then so be it.

We obviously disagree on how a pedophile should be treated, if they are convicted of these crimes. Obviously, you and the current pope see their actions as imminently forgiveable. If you think that a fair sentence for these lowest of criminals would be to have them shag their own golf balls at the driving range, then more power to you.

If it makes you feel better to label my position as "barbaric", or "uncivilized", I'll just have to live with that shame. In my world, people that abuse kids to this degree will pay a price for satisfying themselves in such a manner. And in my world, that price is high indeed.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

If I set my granddaughter in the corner for a timeout, is that revenge or punishment?

Without more information, I can't answer that, but I would ask you - is it justice?

 

[The Voice of Reason]

What I advocate for prisons, and child rapists, is perhaps off topic and a matter for another thread.

Not at all. Feel free to answer the question. What do you feel is an appropriate way to address these "gentlemen"?

Prison is no deterent, indeed it acts as as initiation right among a few American subcultures, and it is known to promote institutionalization in some people. And it certainly acts as no deterent to pedophiles either, many of whom get out merely to commit more atrocities.

Okay. You've made it very clear that you think my ideas are barbaric, uncivilized, and over the top. What do we do in response to men (or women) that beat, rape, or mentally abuse defenseless kids, to the point that they scar them for life?

 

[The Voice of Reason]

This is where you're lost. I don't believe in and eye for an eye.

So let me get this straight. Since you disagree with "an eye for an eye", that means that Father Heathen is lost?

I didn't realize that in a debate about opinion, one could somehow be "wrong".

You seem to be struggling with the idea that others can disagree with you without being "wrong".

I believe if someone violates another's rights, there rights shall be taken away, not violated in turn.

That sounds like punishment.

You guys need to make up your mind. Is punishment part of justice, part of revenge, or is it barbaric and uncivil?

 

[Alceste]

Knowing that their attacker got a dose of their own medicine would give the victim some satisfaction that would help them in healing, coping and finding closure. Obviously. Also, by being on the receiving end of what they did to others, the offender would come to understand firsthand the damage that they themselves caused and its lasting impact. It would be part of an important learning process. Now I'm not saying this should be some sort mandated legal process. That would be too macabre even for me, but if it were to happen, I wouldn't shed tears.

I've been trying to avoid this off-topic tangent, but I would like to point out that I have doubts your theory about rape-victim psychology is correct. I should think that many rape victims would want to avoid feeling sympathy and compassion for their attackers, which would inevitably result from having them suffer the same fate.

If someone throws a rock through your windshield, isn't it better to have the windshield replaced than to have someone else throw a rock through their windshield?

Also, who is going to rape the rapist who rapes the rapist? Where does it end? Are you willing to step up yourself if there is an unpunished rapist raper wandering free? (Although that raises the question - who is going to rape you?)