Christian Magic?

[blackout]

Yeah, sure. totally ridiculous. whatever.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

FH... We both know that totally depends on what level they are and whether or not they chose the baptism skill tree or evangelism skill tree

I gotta admit, that's the funniest thing you said the entire post. LOL

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

self becoming....is manipulation
it is shining the UV torch and demanding that you grow
instead of letting the sunshine make you grow

And what if there is no sunshine?

magic is the man who builds a greenhouse
mysticism is the man who lets the tomatoes grow

If you just sit and wait for things to grow on their own without an area to grow or seeds planted... you are basically saying that you are just leaving it up to whatever to make the things grow.

the fundamental difference being the magician uses outside forces harmoniously or antagonisticly

the mystic is those outside forces and uses nothing

This is interesting...

soooo..... LHP/magic manipulates to bring about change you say... in which it damages and when it tries to possess it loses it's grasp or whatever, and with mysticism there is no manipulation cause you... become the seed which grows, or become the sun that shines? So then you don't have to do anything because you are what it is that is doing the doing...



What??!!!

Where can I go to understand this "mysticism?" Any good links or reads?

So far I am understanding magic as UV pretty much. It IS NOT will-power being exercised! Yes, self-becoming/ self-evolution is a form of manipulation. It is manipulating yourself to become a better person though. It is proactive. That is how I see it, it is using your hands and doing what needs to be done. I also understand magic to be an inexact science with a lack of lust for result. So.... it's not supposed to be a power trip, even though it is the acquisition of power you are after. It has lots of paradoxes.

but you're perspective is LHP, so I'm talking donkey poop

ha ha donkey poop ha... donkey poop frubals coming your way

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

Yeah, sure. totally ridiculous. whatever.

Magic IS totally ridiculous hun! We are totally ridiculous! And I wouldn't have it any other way! :hug:

Magic needs to stay ridiculous.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Its a "shame" so many LHP vimmen are sexy....but uh cough cough

And what if there is no sunshine?

There is always sunshine....
The Sun is the perfect thing to worship literally and symbolically

The sun GIVES, with no thought of remorse, want or need. Without the sun, all life on earth would be dead. In Hermeticism, the Solar reality is generally though of as the Christ. The mediator of things, that which is at the heart of it all...
We can see this graphically in the egyptian image of the Aten, which some confuse as sun worship, when really the Aten is symbolised by the all giving Sun, but is really the transcendant ineffable one...

If you just sit and wait for things to grow on their own without an area to grow or seeds planted... you are basically saying that you are just leaving it up to whatever to make the things grow.

Yes....

I can build a dam...and use the power of a river, the sea...
I can make electricty ofr many. But, eventually, the water will flow no matter what I do.... A person cannot hold back the sea, no matter how much they try.

When a bird flies, it does command, or bend the wind in orsder to fly
It commands and bends itself..it uses the currents of the wind..in order to be one with the wind...The bird knows it cannot change the wind...but it can change its wings...

This is interesting...

soooo..... LHP/magic manipulates to bring about change you say... in which it damages and when it tries to possess it loses it's grasp or whatever, and with mysticism there is no manipulation cause you... become the seed which grows, or become the sun that shines? So then you don't have to do anything because you are what it is that is doing the doing...



What??!!!

Where can I go to understand this "mysticism?" Any good links or reads?

The bird flies..and changes..it changes in order to become one and harmonious with the wind..to use its air currents....

symbollically... the bird becomes one with the wind..in order to fly properly
It is changed by the wind itself

just as a plant is changed by the sun, the wind and the rain,....

good reads? there are many

the upanishads
the dammapada The Dhammapada
Walden by thoreaux
tao of physics (flawed but great)
anythign by John of the cross
anything by thomas merton
the secret rose garden The Secret Rose Garden Index
alone with the alone
tao te chin
cloud of unknowing

and MANY more

So far I am understanding magic as UV pretty much. It IS NOT will-power being exercised! Yes, self-becoming/ self-evolution is a form of manipulation. It is manipulating yourself to become a better person though. It is proactive. That is how I see it, it is using your hands and doing what needs to be done. I also understand magic to be an inexact science with a lack of lust for result. So.... it's not supposed to be a power trip, even though it is the acquisition of power you are after. It has lots of paradoxes.




ha ha donkey poop ha... donkey poop frubals coming your way

magic is like a sun flower walking away from the ground...going to live in a cave...
and buying a UV lamp from amazon.com The sunflower then uses the lamp and grows.....

but it is growing in a cave, without its roots stuck in the ground, it is missing the rain as it is in a cave....

In the end, the sun flower may grow and have seeds, but it is a different sunflower...than a sun flower that stayed and let the forces of nature let it grow.

“Both therapy and mysticism begin by redirecting attention to the one who asks the question. The beginning of the answer is not ‘out there’ but ‘in here.’ In the very consciousness of the one who is looking. Our transformation and healing will commence only with sustained introspection…..

The result of this introspection for both therapy and mysticism is always the same. There are within and beyond the self hidden orders of being. ‘As above, so below.’ Consciousness is layered. Concealed strata of reality that are inaccessible to ordinary perception. They are literally meta-physical…..This unconscious hidden universe has no place in the world…..

This other dimension is not merely concealed, it flows softly beneath the surface of everything. It moves beneath what is apparent and animates it. It fills this world with ‘undreamed of’ potential meaning, for since it is beneath everything, it joins everything. It is an untamed primeval motion of ever-rearranging arrangements of only God knows what. A primary process that seems to sparkle through ordinary things and events in moments of great insight, beauty, and genius. It is reflected sunlight on water. The dancer who dances with such intensity that self-consciousness is left behind. The musicians in the orchestra who play with such devotion that their combined music is greater than the sum of their individual contributions. One body that joins with another body to form, for a moment, what seems to be a single living organism. When all things around us seem to ‘flow’ within and by the same current. When the words of prayer seem to take wings. Then have we fallen (or risen) beneath the apparent surface to some more primary process. Symbols have greater life. Linear logic recedes. The boundaries of space and time blur. The primeval and archaic return. The dream awakens even though the one who dreams remains asleep.”

- Lawrence Kushner (The River of Light)

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Mr. Cheese I dunno about Hermeticism, but you are right, Aten isn't literally the sun. The sun is a symbol. Aten is actually a form of Ra, and seen as one of the creator gods.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Mr. Cheese I dunno about Hermeticism, but you are right, Aten isn't literally the sun. The sun is a symbol. Aten is actually a form of Ra, and seen as one of the creator gods.

I see the aten more as the ineffable transcendant....
you'll also find egyptian pantheons largely depend upon which period you are examining...

earth=kingdom

foundation=yesod..moon..root chakra..genitals

Beauty= Sun, tifferet, solar plexes..the atomic engine at the heart of one's being

etc

Do not involve others in your unrighteousness,
Nor destroy your mind by believing your own untruths.
Do not flatter or give false praise
When there is fear compelling you.
Do not converse falsely with any man,
For it is abhorrent to the Gods.
If you do not separate your mind from your tongue,
Then all your plans will succeed.
You will be revered before others,
And you will be secure in the sight of Rah.
The Gods hate he who falsifies his words,
His duplicity is a great abomination.


–ancient egyptian

 

[Perfect Circle]

I gotta admit, that's the funniest thing you said the entire post. LOL

I'll be here all week

 

[Mr Cheese]

To obtain a reasonable picture of ritual magic in the world of
today is a virtual impossibility. The image presents as nasty a mess
as much modern artistic excretion. What with self-acclaimed
"Witches" inventing ritualistic covers for sex-naughtiness, and
pompous amateur Ipsissimi proclaiming themselves minor or major
Deities, magical ritualism is touching an all-time "low" at this
period of its tide. Its public image is decidedly poor to say the least
of it. As against this, there do exist genuine and dedicated souls who
keep ancient traditions going the best way they can, whether
individually or in minority groupings. Magical rites have never been
for the multitude any more than other highly specialised activities.
The peculiar secrecy surrounding magical practices is not
altogether a matter of deliberate policy, but stems from inadequacy
of verbal or other symbology to express their meaning. Bare
descriptions of the purely physical aspects of ritualism cannot
possibly convey the significance of their inner contents. Knowing
this either consciously or instinctively, practitioners of magical rites
have maintained silence or given out such garbled versions of their
activities, that very little practical use can be made of these. We
may know what was done on material levels, and even all the
words that were said. This still does not tell us the hows and whys
or wherefores to be properly placed and activated Inwardly before
any rite will work to the slightest degree.

General ritual practice throughout individual and collective
Occultism in the Western world of modern times is little to admire
or consider praiseworthy. It lacks synthesis, cohesion, and even
practicability. Few individuals have any qualifications as exponents
of the art, and not many have the qualities necessary to acquire it.
There are no authentic text-books to help basic approaches, and
sham secrecy is too often used as a cover for sheer ignorance.
Despite all this, many souls are drawn toward ritual practice
because of their need of it on deep spiritual levels which nothing
else will fulfil. Unless they are provided with reliable data and basic
information concerning ritualism, they will not only lose opportunities
for gaining the art, but worse still, the art itself will lose
highly valuable practitioners, which it can ill afford to do at present.




--Wg Gray (magical ritual methods)

 

[no-body]

Magic, Christian or otherwise is about psychology. Sugar pills for the soul. Another way to get closer to the One.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Magic, Christian or otherwise is about psychology. Sugar pills for the soul. Another way to get closer to the One.

so many "fluffy bunny" as they are called, authors and practioners often think....

much IS psychology....

but magic is actually far more....

 

[Azakel]

No.. It's because there's nothing to agree on. No one has even agreed on how to spell it, let alone what it is. So far, I understand that it's "the way of the universe"? Are you kidding me? Vague much...?

Spelling is unimportant.

Oh that's right... because I shouldn't be allowed to voice my opinion. I guess I should also stay out of any other thread where I disagree with the OP'er. I guess I'll head over to the "things we all agree on" thread...

There is a difference between voicing your opinion on something is you disagree with it, and ridiculing and making fun of it. If you can post your opinions with degrading what those who believe in Magic(k) think thin go ahead.

Yeah... very adult. Stomp your feet and leave the room because someone disagrees with you.

You assume. I'm not stomping off. But rather leaving because I am tired of being put down. There is a reason why I don't post much about this topic in open forums, it because of people that will take it to poke fun of the people who believe.

 

[no-body]

so many "fluffy bunny" as they are called, authors and practioners often think....

much IS psychology....

but magic is actually far more....

True, it is far more but at it's core it is still psychology, a psychology of the soul. The One needs no elaborate rituals or teachings, tough some are so entrenched in life that they need grand ideas and patterns to make sense of it.

But rather leaving because I am tired of being put down. There is a reason why I don't post much about this topic in open forums, it because of people that will take it to poke fun of the people who believe.

I've only read the last two pages but I didn't see anyone putting you down. People are allowed to think others beliefs ridiculous as long as they are respectful of the person. If you are so threatened by people thinking magic is rubbish, then maybe you aren't so sure about your beliefs.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Magic, Christian or otherwise is about psychology. Sugar pills for the soul. Another way to get closer to the One.

Sometimes it's about selling tickets to a Vegas show.

 

[Mr Cheese]

True, it is far more but at it's core it is still psychology, a psychology of the soul. The One needs no elaborate rituals or teachings, tough some are so entrenched in life that they need grand ideas and patterns to make sense of it.

.

well indeed the purpose of ritual is to not have ritual
but ritualists would argue you have to do ritual in order to not have ritual...

magic ritual of course is differentiated in many ways form common use of the word ritual in that it employs ritual pattern making.... a creation of a matrix within which things can be created.... by using patterns...

of course you could argue its all hogwash....and there is no such thing as magic
as everythign to be found within magic, angels, chthonic beings, access to higher realms, HGAs etc etc etc etc ...are already there...

but thats where magic ends and mysticism begins...as wg greay stated, magic "feels the need" to meddle.... and that is its stance..be it "white, gray, babbon, candle blood or black" magic.....

I also understand it is virtually impossible to have a serious conversation about this topic here.... simply because the hecklers really have no idea.

 

[sojourner]

I believe he is referring to the magic involved when a mortal priest uses a magical process and converts thin wafers into the body of Jesus and turns watered down wine into the blood of Jesus.

Except that's not what happens. Misrepresentation is a poor substitute for argument.

 

[no-body]

well indeed the purpose of ritual is to not have ritual
but ritualists would argue you have to do ritual in order to not have ritual...

magic ritual of course is differentiated in many ways form common use of the word ritual in that it employs ritual pattern making.... a creation of a matrix within which things can be created.... by using patterns...

of course you could argue its all hogwash....and there is no such thing as magic
as everythign to be found within magic, angels, chthonic beings, access to higher realms, HGAs etc etc etc etc ...are already there...

but thats where magic ends and mysticism begins...as wg greay stated, magic "feels the need" to meddle.... and that is its stance..be it "white, gray, babbon, candle blood or black" magic.....

I also understand it is virtually impossible to have a serious conversation about this topic here.... simply because the hecklers really have no idea.

I believe in the power of these things, but not that they are literal truths.

I think anyone who heckles should be ignored--but--this is the debate forum and if someone disrespectfully disagrees because of their religion or beliefs or whatever you should have enough confidence to debate them to a stand still.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Spelling is unimportant.

Then why are you constantly adding (k) to the end of magic...

There is a difference between voicing your opinion on something is you disagree with it, and ridiculing and making fun of it. If you can post your opinions with degrading what those who believe in Magic(k) think thin go ahead.

Or maybe it's because I don't care to be ultra PC every second of the day... and I'm a fan of not taking myself seriously. You should try it.

You assume. I'm not stomping off. But rather leaving because I am tired of being put down. There is a reason why I don't post much about this topic in open forums, it because of people that will take it to poke fun of the people who believe.

Well I'm going to go ahead and let you know that if you're going to get into discussions with people in the real world about magic... you might want to develop some thicker skin, and possibly a sense of humor.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Most people in the so-called "real world", don't understand magic. Better get in the real world, magic can be as simple as a spoken word.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

no...by invisible forces I mean angels, gods, chthonic beings etc
this is what makes nipple tweaking different to other "forms of magic"


a mystic seeks more than mere understanding....
and yes thigns can be defined....
each to their own..is fine
but any magician worth their salt knows magic is not mysticsm
and vice versa

Here is one perspective:
..............................

The 19th century occultists, from whom 90% of contemporary literature on magic is derived, had difficulty making this step. They were either reverent towards the conditioned Judeo-Christian worldview despite their occultism, or they were in extreme (even childish) reaction against it. Today, in the 21st century, and as a result of their pioneering work, their suffering and genius in some cases, we are now less conditioned, and, hopefully, more aware that the world is very different to that of either religious or modernist propaganda.

Ceremony and Ritual in the past
​

Magical ceremonies were conducted in ancestral cultures for two primary purposes: to commune with and draw upon spiritual powers and presences, and to mediate and present such spiritual powers and presences to the community. The first purpose was, and still is, jealously absorbed by political religions. The second purpose is the historical origin of all theatre (including the modern film and television industry), but at a deeper level is the ultimate aim of true magical ritual.

Ideas such as “self-development”, “control of supernatural forces” and so-forth are materialistic and modern. All ancestral magic, be it formal and complex such as the ancient Mysteries of the classical or Egyptian civilisations, or the relatively simple folkloric magic of the ordinary people, was deeply involved in ideas such as participation, relationship, transformation through interaction, and, especially, with the resonance of spiritual forces out to the greater world. The now popular concepts of the isolated would-be-superman, who changes things according to his will, or the elite occult group that influences politics and money, came into shape in the 19th century, and have continued in various forms to this day. Most of these are either a) fiction, or b) egocentric wishful thinking.

What is a ritual?
​

A ritual is a pattern, comprising words, movement, sounds, and intentional content such as clothing, implements, and a wide range other factors. The two key concepts are pattern and intentional content. The most important consideration, however, is that this ritual pattern is shared between humans and other beings…humans and spiritual beings. You cannot have magic without the harmonious exchange between humanity and other orders of life. A ritual, a ceremony, is a special pattern that enables this exchange.

There are of course, two modes of magic, co-operative and coercive. In this article, we are discussing co-operative magic. Similar principles apply to both modes. However, I have never grasped the sense of a type of magic in which humans attempt to force powerful spiritual beings (more powerful than the human ritualists) to do their will. Does this not seem to be absurd…not to mention childish and illogical?

When is a ceremony not a ritual?
​

In some sense we could define any intentional gathering as a ritual or ceremony. But what distinguishes a magical ritual is that the intention always involves spiritual beings. They may be ancestors, faery races, gods or goddesses, trans-human beings compassionate to humanity, the spirits of the living creatures in nature (often rather loosely called totem animals), or conscious entities from remote metaphysical dimensions. If they, whoever they may be, are not part of our ritual, it is not magic. It is merely an empty ceremony.

A ritual and a ceremony are essentially the same thing. The ceremony is the outer form, while the ritual is the magical pattern-making. Hence the popular modern definition that “ceremonial magic” is the complex stuff with fat scripts, many implements and much arm-waving, while other forms of ritual are somehow more direct or simple. This is not true, of course, but is widely published. A very simple ceremony lasting a minute or two, such as placing an offering of wine upon a dedicated stone, can be a powerful and complex ritual involving humans, spirit beings, forces of nature, ancestral consciousness, stellar awareness! Do not be fooled by props…or propped by fools.

extract from RJStewart.org - Ceremony and Ritual Magic

Hm...I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

Part of my view on this tends to include a certain amount of agnosticism towards the existence of spiritual beings outside the human psyche; without a scientific agreement on the existence and the effects of spiritual entities on us, defining magic in this way makes it even more of a subjective definition.

I can only simply reiterate my position: magic is the interaction of the individual's conscious existence within an integrated Universe. Mysticism is the understanding of that (after all, how can mysticism be anymore than understanding?).

So a Christian partaking in the Christian rituals is performing magic just as they are when they make coffee in the morning. There may seem to be a difference in purpose and ritualism, but I think that breaks down when we examine the mysticism behind both actions.