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Christian Magic?

blackout

Violet.
as such...it is a man with a UV torch demanding that a tomato he has picked from the vine ripen

You keep saying this,
but I really don't know where you get the idea
that this is the "attitude/approach" of magic/k?

Well directed Magic is symbolic, artful, flexible, thoughtful, reflective...
and not demanding in nature at all.

Demanding PEOPLE of course will do what they do,
no matter what "label" you put on them.

Sounds more like you're talking about "corporate agriculture" here
than anything else.
 
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Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
I said kabbalah, you said hermetic kabbalah.

Just for a moment let's take a time out. I don't think I said with out a doubt and stated this as fact.

Please allow me one question:

When 12 year old Jesus visited the rabbinical counsel, what knowledge did the 12 year old possess that impressed them so?

What ancient knowledge would they have been discussing back in 12 A.D. ?

ok...

well no1, I dont hold much weight to historical Jesus, especially the standard biblical one...... by and large I think historical jesus is fine and and dandy but largely a curio and ultimatly unimportant.......

that being said...

I think Jesus was of the Essenes..or more accuratly "enoch-ian" jews.... or enoch-ian Gnostics... which were the essenes or some related group...

which arguably were the first kabbalists, written anyway...

so I agree with you in a sense...

but its a bit like comparing a music album on DVD to an old 78rpm record...when comparing "Jesus' kabbalah" to anything we call kabbalah now....
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
You keep saying this,
but I really don't know where you get the idea
that this is the "attitude/approach" of magic/k?

Well directed Magic is symbolic, artful, flexible, thoughtful, reflective...
and not demanding in nature at all.

Demanding PEOPLE of course will do what they do,
no matter what "label" you put on them.

Sounds more like you're talking about "corporate agriculture" here
than anything else.


that's the point

It IS directed....good bad evil chicken blood candles sex or wombat
it is directed, channeled.... that IS magic


The magic user holds their hand up...to command the sea

The mystic takes off all their clothes and becomes the sea

therein lies the huge difference

again, this is why the tao te chin mentions NONE or not doing
it does not focus on doing....
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
You keep saying this,
but I really don't know where you get the idea
that this is the "attitude/approach" of magic/k?


it is not so much the attitude or approach...it is what it is

magic is about change....

mastery, from the latin magister...to master (an alternative etimologicval term for magic)...... the focus be it coersive and antagonistic or more harmonious it is magic...

in a sense that, if the universe is water

magic creates dams (LHP)....and focuses the power and energy...
I dont know if there are many RHP magicians here.... wicca is afterall largely a LHP practise despite the claims of "light"

RHP would channeling the water..so that it would be to become waterpipes or to lay down water pipes thus ultimatly both change the flow and nature of the water in that it acts differently....

of course water is water and its nature cannot be changed..which is why arguably magic fails..and is why eventually the magician understands that the purpose of magic is not to have magic.....

mysticism.....seeks also arguably to become a water pipe...this is where the RHP and mysticism's lines are blurry....

becoming a water pipe is one definition for the often used word theurgy, which differs slightly to the ceremonial magician's use...

the difference lies in that the mystic seeks ultimatly to not channel the water through its pipe..they seek to allow it to flow through them... until there is no pipe

so in BECOMING the grail.....one does not seek to change the universe, one IS the universe....

instead of invoking divine agencies for help, understanding and to heal (or for self betterment)...... the mystic seeks to become lost, by none doing.......by letting go.

The lines are blurry...especially with some forms of the RHP
less blurry with the LHP of course though

:p and I'm rambling..and am probably nonsensical
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
The Way takes no action, but leaves nothing undone.
When you accept this
The world will flourish,
In harmony with nature.

Nature does not possess desire;
Without desire, the heart becomes quiet;
In this manner the whole world is made tranquil.

--------

Water overcomes the stone;
Without substance it requires no opening;
This is the benefit of taking no action.

Yet benefit without action,
And experience without abstraction,
Are practiced by very few.

--------

The follower of knowledge learns as much as he can every day;
The follower of the Way forgets as much as he can every day.

By attrition he reaches a state of inaction
Wherein he does nothing, but nothing remains undone.
To conquer the world, accomplish nothing;
If you must accomplish something,
The world remains beyond conquest.

----------

Those who wish to change the world
According with their desire
cannot succeed.

The world is shaped by the Way;
It cannot be shaped by the self.
Trying to change it, you damage it;
Trying to possess it, you lose it.

So some will lead, while others follow.
Some will be warm, others cold
Some will be strong, others weak.
Some will get where they are going
While others fall by the side of the road.

So the sage will be neither extravagant nor violent.


-- http://www.taoteching.org/index.htm
 

blackout

Violet.
that's the point

It IS directed....good bad evil chicken blood candles sex or wombat
it is directed, channeled.... that IS magic


The magic user holds their hand up...to command the sea

The mystic takes off all their clothes and becomes the sea

therein lies the huge difference

again, this is why the tao te chin mentions NONE or not doing
it does not focus on doing....

I don't seek to "command" anyone, or anything.

My relationship with/experience of magic is central to Self Becoming.

I think you are really hung up on your own personal notions
of what certain "labels" mean.


and BTW.... WATERING the garden = DOing.

if you water and grow the inner garden AS
you water and grow the outer one...
as if they are one and the same...
this is magic.
 
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blackout

Violet.
cheese,


if christians (and mystics) are not supposed to "do' anything
in a focused and directed way
how on earth will they even earn an income to support a family?

Of course people do things with directed purpose.

I'm sorry, but the notion of "not doing" is absurd.

Your preferences as well, are completely arbitrary.

Obviously you can still relax and "be" while doing a thing.
There's nothing so mystical about the notion either. :shrug:
 
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Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
ok...

well no1, I dont hold much weight to historical Jesus, especially the standard biblical one...... by and large I think historical jesus is fine and and dandy but largely a curio and ultimatly unimportant.......

that being said...

I think Jesus was of the Essenes..or more accuratly "enoch-ian" jews.... or enoch-ian Gnostics... which were the essenes or some related group...

which arguably were the first kabbalists, written anyway...

so I agree with you in a sense...

but its a bit like comparing a music album on DVD to an old 78rpm record...when comparing "Jesus' kabbalah" to anything we call kabbalah now....

Well there we have it. You got my point and I got yours and we are not disagreeing any more.

This is just an idea I had, a theory if you will. I do no have this compulsion that drives me to be absolutely right about this, that would be foolish of me.

I believe this does have a certain degree of merit to it, to what degree is debatable.
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
cheese,


if christians (and mystics) are not supposed to "do' anything
in a focused and directed way
how on earth will they even earn an income to support a family?

Of course people do things with directed purpose.

I'm sorry, but the notion of "not doing" is absurd.

Your preferences as well, are completely arbitrary.

Obviously you can still relax and "be" while doing a thing.
There's nothing so mystical about the notion either. :shrug:

The wind blows
It doesn’t decide to blow one way
or another
the wind blows
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
I don't seek to "command" anyone, or anything.

My relationship with/experience of magic is central to Self Becoming.

I think you are really hung up on your own personal notions
of what certain "labels" mean.


and BTW.... WATERING the garden = DOing.

if you water and grow the inner garden AS
you water and grow the outer one...
as if they are one and the same...
this is magic.

self becoming....is manipulation
it is shining the UV torch and demanding that you grow
instead of letting the sunshine make you grow

what if watering is the same as breathing, or eating
a person needs to breathe and eat to stay alive... thus it is not doing
or what if the garden is watered by the rain....?
then it is not doing

magic is the man who builds a greenhouse
mysticism is the man who lets the tomatoes grow

the fundamental difference being the magician uses outside forces harmoniously or antagonisticly

the mystic is those outside forces and uses nothing

:p but you're perspective is LHP, so I'm talking donkey poop
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
Well, what do you think he was hinting at?

Because really, all I've heard refuting my points is "How can defecation, Big Macs, and nipple-tweaking be magical?"

I think I've made a rather logical and honest statement of why I think so. So, why wouldn't they be?

From Aleister Crowley's Magick: In Theory and Practice:

"Every man must do magic each time he acts or thinks...a thought is an internal act whose influence ultimately affects action, though it may not do so at the time."


whats crowley hinting at? who knows, the guy was a notorious spreader of misinformation........

I would argue however, the difference between "the way of the universe is magic, which means pooping and nipple tweaking are magic"...is that magic employs invisible forces....
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
I don't seek to "command" anyone, or anything.

My relationship with/experience of magic is central to Self Becoming.

I think you are really hung up on your own personal notions
of what certain "labels" mean.


and BTW.... WATERING the garden = DOing.

if you water and grow the inner garden AS
you water and grow the outer one...
as if they are one and the same...
this is magic.

UV hon, I believe the difference here is invoking and evoking.

Invoking is like a prayer or request.

Evoking commands something to be done.

I believe at this time it would be wise to mention to our readers out there that magic, or magick has a mischievous side to it. A person would be wise to be very specific with their requests or commands. The old saying, "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it", applies greatly here.
 

Azakel

Liebe ist für alle da
Invoking is like a prayer or request.
Evoking commands something to be done.

Not really Rick ^_^
Evoking is when you ask a Deity, elemental, etc. to be present in the circle.
I would say this is more like Prayer.
Invoking is when you invite the Deity, etc. 'into' yourself, and for a time you 'become' that Deity.(At lest that the thought behind it)....
I would say that in the end both command things to be done, just in a different way.
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
Not really Rick ^_^
Evoking is when you ask a Deity, elemental, etc. to be present in the circle.
I would say this is more like Prayer.
Invoking is when you invite the Deity, etc. 'into' yourself, and for a time you 'become' that Deity.(At lest that the thought behind it)....
I would say that in the end both command things to be done, just in a different way.

there are of course different types of prayer...

many think of prayer as just "gimme"
of course, for many prayers and prayers it is

but another example would be a "conversation"
which is far different to "gimme"
 

Azakel

Liebe ist für alle da
there are of course different types of prayer...

many think of prayer as just "gimme"
of course, for many prayers and prayers it is

but another example would be a "conversation"
which is far different to "gimme"
Agreed.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
I would argue however, the difference between "the way of the universe is magic, which means pooping and nipple tweaking are magic"...is that magic employs invisible forces....

Doesn't every action?

Mr Cheese said:
The magic user holds their hand up...to command the sea

The mystic takes off all their clothes and becomes the sea

Both represent actions that yield a particular result.

A mystic seeks communion and understanding of reality. Magic is the movement within the reality.

I think this is one of those areas where each person's definition is going to differ to the point where true resolution will be simply "to each their own."

Magic and mysticism cannot be scientifically defined. :)
 

Azakel

Liebe ist für alle da
Just how big is a Christian's mana pool (excluding any ceremonial garments that give stat bonuses)?
FH I know you think this a joke, but please, enough with the jokes friend. It sucks trying to explain this stuff with jokes being made ^_^
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
Doesn't every action?

no...by invisible forces I mean angels, gods, chthonic beings etc
this is what makes nipple tweaking different to other "forms of magic"
Both represent actions that yield a particular result.

A mystic seeks communion and understanding of reality. Magic is the movement within the reality.

I think this is one of those areas where each person's definition is going to differ to the point where true resolution will be simply "to each their own."

Magic and mysticism cannot be scientifically defined. :)

a mystic seeks more than mere understanding....
and yes thigns can be defined....
each to their own..is fine
but any magician worth their salt knows magic is not mysticsm
and vice versa

Here is one perspective:
..............................

The 19th century occultists, from whom 90% of contemporary literature on magic is derived, had difficulty making this step. They were either reverent towards the conditioned Judeo-Christian worldview despite their occultism, or they were in extreme (even childish) reaction against it. Today, in the 21st century, and as a result of their pioneering work, their suffering and genius in some cases, we are now less conditioned, and, hopefully, more aware that the world is very different to that of either religious or modernist propaganda.

Ceremony and Ritual in the past
Magical ceremonies were conducted in ancestral cultures for two primary purposes: to commune with and draw upon spiritual powers and presences, and to mediate and present such spiritual powers and presences to the community. The first purpose was, and still is, jealously absorbed by political religions. The second purpose is the historical origin of all theatre (including the modern film and television industry), but at a deeper level is the ultimate aim of true magical ritual.

Ideas such as “self-development”, “control of supernatural forces” and so-forth are materialistic and modern. All ancestral magic, be it formal and complex such as the ancient Mysteries of the classical or Egyptian civilisations, or the relatively simple folkloric magic of the ordinary people, was deeply involved in ideas such as participation, relationship, transformation through interaction, and, especially, with the resonance of spiritual forces out to the greater world. The now popular concepts of the isolated would-be-superman, who changes things according to his will, or the elite occult group that influences politics and money, came into shape in the 19th century, and have continued in various forms to this day. Most of these are either a) fiction, or b) egocentric wishful thinking.

What is a ritual?
A ritual is a pattern, comprising words, movement, sounds, and intentional content such as clothing, implements, and a wide range other factors. The two key concepts are pattern and intentional content. The most important consideration, however, is that this ritual pattern is shared between humans and other beings…humans and spiritual beings. You cannot have magic without the harmonious exchange between humanity and other orders of life. A ritual, a ceremony, is a special pattern that enables this exchange.

There are of course, two modes of magic, co-operative and coercive. In this article, we are discussing co-operative magic. Similar principles apply to both modes. However, I have never grasped the sense of a type of magic in which humans attempt to force powerful spiritual beings (more powerful than the human ritualists) to do their will. Does this not seem to be absurd…not to mention childish and illogical?

When is a ceremony not a ritual?
In some sense we could define any intentional gathering as a ritual or ceremony. But what distinguishes a magical ritual is that the intention always involves spiritual beings. They may be ancestors, faery races, gods or goddesses, trans-human beings compassionate to humanity, the spirits of the living creatures in nature (often rather loosely called totem animals), or conscious entities from remote metaphysical dimensions. If they, whoever they may be, are not part of our ritual, it is not magic. It is merely an empty ceremony.

A ritual and a ceremony are essentially the same thing. The ceremony is the outer form, while the ritual is the magical pattern-making. Hence the popular modern definition that “ceremonial magic” is the complex stuff with fat scripts, many implements and much arm-waving, while other forms of ritual are somehow more direct or simple. This is not true, of course, but is widely published. A very simple ceremony lasting a minute or two, such as placing an offering of wine upon a dedicated stone, can be a powerful and complex ritual involving humans, spirit beings, forces of nature, ancestral consciousness, stellar awareness! Do not be fooled by props…or propped by fools.

extract from RJStewart.org - Ceremony and Ritual Magic
 

Perfect Circle

Just Browsing
Just how big is a Christian's mana pool (excluding any ceremonial garments that give stat bonuses)?

FH... We both know that totally depends on what level they are and whether or not they chose the baptism skill tree or evangelism skill tree.

BTW, does anyone else find this thread totally ridiculous?:areyoucra
 
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