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Christians- How do you know Jesus and the Bible are true?

Brian2

Veteran Member
You did not do enough research. They openly admit to not being scientific. It is in their Mission Statement. Sorry, but your source disqualified itself:



Which of these 2 sites do you think is correct and why do you think that Tel Aviv University, a Biblically Minimalist University, would deny evidence of camel domestication in the third Millenium BC and say that camels weren't even domesticated at the time they were mentioned in Genesis and say that the earliest camel domestication in Israel was around 1000 BC?



And you don't trust the Biblical maximalists.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Which of these 2 sites do you think is correct and why do you think that Tel Aviv University, a Biblically Minimalist University, would deny evidence of camel domestication in the third Millenium BC and say that camels weren't even domesticated at the time they were mentioned in Genesis and say that the earliest camel domestication in Israel was around 1000 BC?



And you don't trust the Biblical maximalists.
What difference does it make? Almost any site is right some of the time. Being right once does not help the.


You are not asking the right questions.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
What difference does it make? Almost any site is right some of the time. Being right once does not help the.


You are not asking the right questions.

And you seem to have missed the point that the Biblical minimalists at Tel Aviv Archaeology Dept. are out by over 1000 years according to the evidence.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Nothing is conclusive, we should wait for the peer reviewed article.
In the meantime something on the use of Yahweh in Egypt.
That is what I'm saying, there is very little evidence here yet.
The Yahweh mention is probably the same that Professor Grabbe mentioned here:

The Real Origins of Ancient Israel
Lester L. Grabbe
Professor of Hebrew Bible and Early Judaism at the University of Hull, England


47:35 Yahweh possibly borrowed from Egyptian text (Yahweh from south)


The Egyptians worshipped all sorts of deities and this would show that Yahweh was just another made up deity. Especially with all the talk about Yahweh was given Israel and those are his people and all that. If he were part of another pantheon that would all be evidence it was all made up.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
That is what I'm saying, there is very little evidence here yet.
The Yahweh mention is probably the same that Professor Grabbe mentioned here:

The Real Origins of Ancient Israel
Lester L. Grabbe
Professor of Hebrew Bible and Early Judaism at the University of Hull, England


47:35 Yahweh possibly borrowed from Egyptian text (Yahweh from south)


The Egyptians worshipped all sorts of deities and this would show that Yahweh was just another made up deity. Especially with all the talk about Yahweh was given Israel and those are his people and all that. If he were part of another pantheon that would all be evidence it was all made up.

I suppose many scholars come to such evidence (use of Yahweh in Egypt) with the idea that Israel was not in Egypt and there was no Conquest of Canaan in about 1400BC by Israel. With such presuppositions in their head, obtained from wrong archaeology of Canaan and misreading of the Bible etc, they try to fit the new evidence into their established ideas and so continue the error, and even make it worse.
I went on a bit after 47:35 and noticed that he was saying that originally Israel worshipped other gods and there were other gods around. ( 49:50 ish) I have to scratch my head and pull my hair out at such things since they are known from the Biblical text itself and are presented as if they disprove the monotheism given to Israel by Yahweh, when in fact all they do is show the Biblical text to be true, and that Israel worshipped Yahweh but also at times worshipped the gods of the Canaanites.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
This is an interesting commentary by someone who is a Jew (Dr Seth Postell) but believes in Jesus and also comments on Tovia Singer and what he says about Christian interpretations and translations.

This next site is interesting and actually says that it is the Jews who changed "pierced" in Psalm 22 to "like a lion" (just by changing one little mark in the word) and also gives reasons to think that--namely that texts older than the Masoretic text (Septuagint and Dead Sea Scrolls) show that Psalm 22 had "pierced" in it.
It also shows that Psalm 22 was Messianic to many Rabbis of the past and showed a suffering Messiah as does Isa 53.
The apologist in One for Israel is just saying apologetics and is a fundamentalist who is completely bias.

Here is an apologist who is at least a professor and takes a fair look at the issue

He also mentions Tovia Singer and thinks he is incorrect about the motive for changing the text.
First of all, many modern Bibles recognize the original Hebrew probably did not say pierced, note the footnotes they all include.
NKJV
“For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They* pierced My hands and My feet”
* So with some Heb. mss., LXX, Syr., Vg.; MT Like a lion instead of They pierced

NIV
“Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce* my hands and my feet.”
* Dead Sea Scrolls and some manuscripts of the Masoretic Text, Septuagint and Syriac; most manuscripts of the Masoretic Text me, / like a lion
CSB
“For dogs have surrounded me; a gang of evildoers has closed in on me; they pierced* my hands and my feet.”
* Some Hb mss, LXX, Syr; other Hb mss read me; like a lion
ESV
“For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet.*”
* Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint, Vulgate, Syriac; most Hebrew manuscripts like a lion [they are at] my hands and feet
" the proverbial cat has been let out of the bag; the record has been updated."

He concluded - "And given the alternate modern translations of this text that we looked at above, it seems to me much more plausible that what we see in Psalm 22:16 is the result of a scribal error, rather than the product of malicious editing for theological purposes."

There are two sources:
There are two primary early sources; the Masoretic Text,4 which is universally accepted as the authentic Hebrew Bible and translates the Hebrew phrase in Psalm 22 as “like a lion,” and the collection of Greek texts known as the Septuagint,5 which render the phrase in question as “they pierced.” Most Hebrew scholars will say "dug"

Summary - scribal error in Greek Version​

It strikes me as odd that the early church translators would swap out the phrase “like a lion” for the phrase “they pierced” in verse 16, yet leave the other Messianic passages from Psalm 22 intact. Rather than malfeasance on the part of early Christian translators, I believe the weight of the evidence suggests a scribal error is at the root of this discrepancy. Thus, the way most modern translations acknowledge the alternate interpretations of this verse in the footnote is appropriate.

Now this is an apologist who ultimately thinks this there is still messianic references to Jesus in Psalms. He's even impressed that the crucifixion narrative quotes Psalms verbatim, because he's bought into this story. He doesn't grasp the obvious, Mark used Psalm when constructing his fiction about a Greek style savior undergoing a passion, which they all did. Over 1 billion people believe the Quran is a message from an angel and billions believe Krishna appeared on a battlefield to talk with Prince Arjuna. So it's not surprising, it's what people do.

The Wiki page says the SAME

The original Hebrew says "they bite like a lion my hands and my feet". The Septuagint says "they dug my hands and feet", and pologists seem to think "dug" can be swaped out with "pierced". It really can't but since it makes it more of a Christological interpretation they want it to say that. But it also could say pluck, bore, pick clean.......

"This verse, which is Psalm 22:17 in the Hebrew verse numbering, reads in most versions of the Masoretic Text as: כארי ידי ורגלי, which may be read literally as "like a lion my hands and my feet". The full verse of the Masoretic Text reads: כִּ֥י סְבָב֗וּנִי כְּלָ֫בִ֥ים עֲדַ֣ת מְ֭רֵעִים הִקִּיפ֑וּנִי כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י יָדַ֥י וְרַגְלָֽי‎ (Kî sĕḇāḇûnî kĕlāḇîm 'ăḏaṯ mĕrē'îm hiqqîp̄ûnî kā'ărî yāḏay wĕraḡlāy). The syntactical form of this Hebrew phrase appears to be lacking a verb. In this context the phrase was commonly explained in early Rabbinical paraphrases as "they bite like a lion my hands and my feet".

The Septuagint, a Jewish translation of the Hebrew Bible into Koine Greek made before the Common Era, has "ὤρυξαν χεῗράς μου καὶ πόδας" ("they dug my hands and feet"), which Christian commentators argue could be understood in the general sense as "pierced". This reading was retained by Jerome in his translation from the Greek Hexapla into the Latin of his Gallican Psalter (Foderunt manus meas et pedes meos) which was incorporated into both the Vulgate and the Divine Office."

This article uses some good reference sources and sums it up well
The translation "they have pierced" is preferred by many Christian commentators for its christological implications. For example, Craig Blomberg, commenting on the allusions to Psalm 22 in the Gospel of Matthew, includes "he is surrounded by wicked onlookers (22:16a) who pierce his hands and feet (22:16b)" among "an astonishing number of close parallels to the events of Jesus' crucifixion".[9] However, the phrase is not quoted directly in the New Testament, despite the Septuagint Greek reading "dug" that might be thought to prefigure the piercing of Jesus' hands and feet. This translation is brimming with problems, not least of which is that there is no such Hebrew root as כאר and there is not a single instance of aleph being used as an infix in the Hebrew language, thus the form כארו is completely meaningless in Hebrew. The form as presented in the Masoretic Text, i.e. כארי, however, is perfect grammatical Hebrew for "like a lion" or "as a lion."[10]




The only people looking for it to say "pierced" are some form of apologist/theologian who go on to talk about how Jesus rose again, yay! in every article.
The apologist I used above gets around this by saying there are enough messianic references to keep his bias satisfied, so he will admit it doesn't say pierced. The bias is soooooooo obvious? They cannot write an article without going full evangelist?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I suppose many scholars come to such evidence (use of Yahweh in Egypt) with the idea that Israel was not in Egypt and there was no Conquest of Canaan in about 1400BC by Israel. With such presuppositions in their head, obtained from wrong archaeology of Canaan and misreading of the Bible etc, they try to fit the new evidence into their established ideas and so continue the error, and even make it worse.
If you want to live by one conspiracy theory after another, your choice. Meanwhile the real world moves on, with actual knowledge and evidence.
The Israelites came from Canaanites and moved into the hill areas around 1200 BC. There is excellent evidence for this. You are determining the archaeological and historical field wrong from your armchair. You "suppose"??? OK, LOL?


I went on a bit after 47:35 and noticed that he was saying that originally Israel worshipped other gods and there were other gods around. ( 49:50 ish) I have to scratch my head and pull my hair out at such things since they are known from the Biblical text itself and are presented as if they disprove the monotheism given to Israel by Yahweh, when in fact all they do is show the Biblical text to be true, and that Israel worshipped Yahweh but also at times worshipped the gods of the Canaanites.
The Bible was written in 600 BC. Hundreds of temple finds show the average Israelite worshipped Yahweh and a goddess and were doing so even in 600 BC. The writers of scripture were the elite writing how they think the religion should be. It did get there eventually during the 2nd Temple Period because worshipping other gods was blamed for the invasion.

So the writers did know the people worshipped a Canaanite goddess and violated some temple rules. Doesn't mean any Gods were real. It means they knew what was going on.
If you have angels and other divinities it's monolatric not monotheism.
HOwever, scripture paints a false picture that says all along just Yahweh was worshipped. For centuries Israel had a folk religion used by the people that involved multiple Gods. The archaeology videos can be sourced by Dever and others, as well as Yale lectures by Dr Hayes.

Dr Joel Baden is a good scholar on Hebrew and Israelite history, he explains the origins here:

Canaanites Were Israelites & There Was No Exodus




Prof. Joel Baden
1:20 DNA shows close relationship between Israelites and Canaanites. Israelites ARE Canaanites who moved to a different place.

6:10 Consensus. Biblical story of Exodus and people coming from Egypt and taking over through battle is not true. With slight variations here and there basically everyone will tell you they gradually came from the coastlands into the highlands. Canaanites moved away to the highlands and slowly became a unified nation after first splitting into tribes.

No Israelites until after 1000 BCE.

18:18 Isaiah 1 is 8th century. Ch 40 is suddenly different. Cyrus shows up, enter end times, Persian influence. Messianic concepts.

The only reason one would not see this is if committed to the idea that it’s not written in separate parts.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The apologist in One for Israel is just saying apologetics and is a fundamentalist who is completely bias.

Here is an apologist who is at least a professor and takes a fair look at the issue

He also mentions Tovia Singer and thinks he is incorrect about the motive for changing the text.
First of all, many modern Bibles recognize the original Hebrew probably did not say pierced, note the footnotes they all include.





" the proverbial cat has been let out of the bag; the record has been updated."

He concluded - "And given the alternate modern translations of this text that we looked at above, it seems to me much more plausible that what we see in Psalm 22:16 is the result of a scribal error, rather than the product of malicious editing for theological purposes."

There are two sources:
There are two primary early sources; the Masoretic Text,4 which is universally accepted as the authentic Hebrew Bible and translates the Hebrew phrase in Psalm 22 as “like a lion,” and the collection of Greek texts known as the Septuagint,5 which render the phrase in question as “they pierced.” Most Hebrew scholars will say "dug"

I posted a video of the same scholar (RL Solberg) and the same talk and note that (as in the link you give) he does express surprise that Singer (a Hebrew scholar) did not mention the close similarity of "pierced" and "like a lion" and just says that the Christians have raped the Hebrew scriptures and changed them.
But as you can see above in the translations and footnotes, the Dead sea scrolls have "pierced" and some Masoretic texts have "pierced" and some LXX manuscripts.
The Dead Sea Scrolls are much older than the Masoretic texts.
Dug, made a hole in, bored as with an awl might be better translations instead of pierced, but pierced looks closer than "like a lion" when you look at the manuscripts. Dug, made a hole in, bored as with an awl etc are probably more appropriate to what happened to Jesus than "pierced" I suppose. Maybe it was a clean piercing, maybe not.


The original Hebrew says "they bite like a lion my hands and my feet". The Septuagint says "they dug my hands and feet", and pologists seem to think "dug" can be swaped out with "pierced". It really can't but since it makes it more of a Christological interpretation they want it to say that. But it also could say pluck, bore, pick clean.......​


No the original Hebrew does not say "they bite like a lion my hands and my feet" and your scholar, RL Solberg seems to agree that "pierced" is an OK translation, as you can see below.

In actuality (and I would be surprised if the Hebrew-speaking Rabbi Singer did not know this), the difference between the phrases like a lion and they pierced in Hebrew is a single letter. In Hebrew, the phrase “like a lion” is ka’ari, as Singer pointed out, while the phrase “they have pierced” is ka’aru. These two words are nearly identical. The only difference is that ka’ari (lion) ends with the Hebrew letter yod, and ka’aru (pierced) ends with the Hebrew letter vav.

And from the article again:

So which interpretation is correct? In the end, whether we interpret it pierce or lion does not really matter in terms of the overall scriptural case for Jesus’ Messiahship. There are hundreds of other passages and prophecies that reveal His messianic attributes, so the Christian case does not stand or fall based on Psalm 22:16. Personally, I think either interpretation fits the context of the psalm as a whole. And on that note, I will leave you with a compelling point made by Dr. Michael Brown (whose doctorate is in Near Eastern languages and literature), who notes:

“But let’s assume the correct translation is, ‘Like a lion at my hands and feet.’ What is the lion doing with the victim’s hands and feet—licking them? The renowned Jewish commentator Rashi says it means ‘as though they are crushed in a lion’s mouth.’ So the imagery is clear: the metaphorical lions are tearing and ripping at the sufferer’s hands and feet. This mauling and biting graphically portrays great physical agony. It’s entirely consistent with what occurs in a crucifixion. So either translation could be said to foreshadow the suffering of the Messiah.”7
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
If you want to live by one conspiracy theory after another, your choice. Meanwhile the real world moves on, with actual knowledge and evidence.
The Israelites came from Canaanites and moved into the hill areas around 1200 BC. There is excellent evidence for this. You are determining the archaeological and historical field wrong from your armchair. You "suppose"??? OK, LOL?

For you the whole Bible is made up of conspiracies to fool people into thinking things happened when they did not. Personally I think to point out that there is major disagreement amongst archaeologists and "real evidence" points to the Biblical maximalist side of things is not to live by one conspiracy theory after another.
Archaeology is not always a matter of knowledge but is a matter of opinion and so your "with actual knowledge and evidence" is false.

The Bible was written in 600 BC. Hundreds of temple finds show the average Israelite worshipped Yahweh and a goddess and were doing so even in 600 BC. The writers of scripture were the elite writing how they think the religion should be. It did get there eventually during the 2nd Temple Period because worshipping other gods was blamed for the invasion.

You are right, the Bible tells us about Israel worshipping idol as well as Yahweh. The Temple finds as well as shrine finds etc just agree with what the Bible tells us. Archaeology is actually confirming the Bible about all this, and it is said as if it is a big revelation of archaeology.
What the Bible does not say is that it was written in 600BC. That is speculation based on the opinions of the Biblical minimalists.

So the writers did know the people worshipped a Canaanite goddess and violated some temple rules. Doesn't mean any Gods were real. It means they knew what was going on.
If you have angels and other divinities it's monolatric not monotheism.
HOwever, scripture paints a false picture that says all along just Yahweh was worshipped. For centuries Israel had a folk religion used by the people that involved multiple Gods. The archaeology videos can be sourced by Dever and others, as well as Yale lectures by Dr Hayes.

No, scripture does not paint a false picture that says all along just Yahweh was worshipped. You speak like someone who has never read the Bible. And it does not matter what it is called. Israel after the Exodus was set up to be monotheistic and warned not to worship the idols of the Canaanites and for much of the time it was not monotheistic. Yes we have known that for a couple of thousand years and you make it sound like big news. The only thing you are adding is that it is a made up history. You are turning the history of the Jews into the speculations of the minimalists.

Prof. Joel Baden
1:20 DNA shows close relationship between Israelites and Canaanites. Israelites ARE Canaanites who moved to a different place.

Based on the false Biblical timing for the Conquest (1200BC) and because of that, not being able to find evidence for it.
Based on a seemingly on purpose misunderstanding of the settlement in Joshua and Judges, where Israel settled down in the same cities that they kicked the Canaanites out of and most of Canaanites remained there (as the Bible tells us) and were only defeated and removed gradually until Saul and David's time. And the Israelites get wives from the Canaanites at times and worshipped their gods.
Again it's all there in the Bible and all that Biblical minimalists do is to deny the first 5 books and therefore come up with a need for no conquest in Joshua and Israel having to be Canaanites all along and the Pentateuch and other parts of the Bible having been written in 600BC.

6:10 Consensus. Biblical story of Exodus and people coming from Egypt and taking over through battle is not true. With slight variations here and there basically everyone will tell you they gradually came from the coastlands into the highlands. Canaanites moved away to the highlands and slowly became a unified nation after first splitting into tribes.

No Israelites until after 1000 BCE.

18:18 Isaiah 1 is 8th century. Ch 40 is suddenly different. Cyrus shows up, enter end times, Persian influence. Messianic concepts.

The only reason one would not see this is if committed to the idea that it’s not written in separate parts.

No Israelites until 1000 BC even when the Mernephtah Stele of about 1200 BC tells us of Israel? Hmmm.
There were schools/groups of prophets and there was probably an Isaiah school. There is no real problem with different parts of Isaiah being written by different people. The only reason you don't accept that is because you are committed to the idea that the supernatural and prophecy is not true and so the prophecy of Cyrus had to have been written after Cyrus conquered Babylon.
It's a matter of, "We can't accept what it says, so we'll make up our own story and believe that instead".
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Dr Joel Baden is a good scholar on Hebrew and Israelite history, he explains the origins here:

Canaanites Were Israelites & There Was No Exodus



1:50 No the Canaanites and Jews were related through the Abraham and Isaac. Ishmael and Esau went on to begin the nations in the area for a start. Then the Jews intermarried with the Canaanites also.
If the Jews were Canaanites the DNA would be the same, but it is just a bit like.
The DNA agrees with the Bible account of things. (I though you said Baden is a good scholar)
4:10 What? First presumes that the Pentateuch is made up of different sources and that the Exodus happened in different ways in the Bible. What different ways? What is he talking about? He gives examples of what he means but those examples do not match what the Bible tells us. Is he reading another Bible? There is only one Exodus story. Is he really a scholar?

It is so easy to see his thinking about Josiah and the finding of the ancient books. He does not believe Joshua Judges Kings etc and the Moses story and the giving of the Law so he and others make up the story of those books and the Law being written by Josiah or at that time and given a divine background to the stories.
The archaeology of Yahweh seems to be associated with Israel all the way through however.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
And you seem to have missed the point that the Biblical minimalists at Tel Aviv Archaeology Dept. are out by over 1000 years according to the evidence.
Nope, I said that even if true your silly argument does not fly. It does not help you. Your source as I said is worthless. It is not scientific. They openly make that admission. But then refusing to ask the right questions is how one keeps from leaning. It is a defense mechanism when one knows that one is in the wrong.
 

Zwing

Active Member
Then you were being sarcastic about talking about heaven as if it's the only place Christians might go to after they die. Anyway, have a great day.
I never mentioned “heaven”, to my recollection. I believe it was @CG Didymus who introduced the word into the conversation:
Having your sins forgiven and being guaranteed a place in heaven is a pretty good offer.
If I ever did mention “heaven”, then yes it would certainly have been in sarcasm. Do you know what “heaven” means? The sky. “Heaven” is the Anglo-Saxon word for “sky”, that’s it. To be entirely clear, as far as “heaven” (or “hell”) as some kind of eternal realm, or the “New Jerusalem”, or the “New Earth/Earth made new”, I have, as with the concept of “God”, “Satan”, and “the human soul”, no opinion or interest, as none of those concepts have been shown to me to have any kind of objective existence.

As for the continuation of Didymus’ post,
And all the person has to do is believe? Why not give it a try?
I will not try that again. I was once a Christian. As a Christian, I hoped for an afterlife of salvation, but I also placed reliance upon God for protection in this world, as well, the one life that I could be sure I had available to me. (Remember that the biblically mandated Christian eschatological standard pertaining to an “afterlife” is the Pauline concept of faith, not belief, and this despite the wording of the Nicene Creed. Pauline faith represents a much lower bar than belief, simply being “assurance of what one hopes to be true”. Therefore, as a Christian I had faith in an afterlife, but absolutely believed in the life of this world, with the rational consequence that God’s assistance in this life was much more important to me than any deific promises regarding a hypothetical afterlife.) In my hope for protection in this life, God utterly failed to protect me from a series of events which are still producing negative repercussions in my life. I have since that time characterized my former Christian practice with the words, “I might just as well have been praying to a brick wall.” God will not get a second chance to fail me, and in any case I have come to the conclusion that any and all belief and/or faith in deity whatsoever is both utterly irrational and perceptibly dangerous.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
All Jewish Bibles and all historical scholars of the OT, as well as Rabbi who have studies Hebrew/OT since childhood.
As you have done before, you really haven't answered the question. Maybe it is because you don't know so let me help you.

The Leningrad Codex is the oldest complete manuscript of the Tanakh, the 39 books of the Bible. Written in Cairo on parchment in the year 1009.

The Septuagint was based on documents before the oldest complete manuscript of the Tanakh existed.

Unless you can be more specific, you haven't supported the position that the Septuagint is translated wrong. It could be the Leningrad Codex was translated wrong since it is after the Septuagint.
 

Zwing

Active Member
DNA shows close relationship between Israelites and Canaanites.
“Israelites” were simply the Canaanite faction which accepted a new god (YHVH) in place of the traditional Canaanite gods. They grew out of and separated from the greater Canaanite population. All “Canaanite” ( כְּנַעֲנִיים , K’na’anim) means in Hebrew is “lowlanders” (referring specifically to “lowland Northwest Semites”, especially as juxtaposed to Aramim “highlanders”/“ highland Northwest Semites”). The k’na’anim included those who became the Israelites, those referred to as “Philistines”, the “Phoenicians”, and other small groups of “lowland” Semites in the Levant.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Why not just say you don't believe the story and prefer to make up your own version of what happened etc. ?
I’m not making up what happened. I’m just more realistic when I read it. Samuel clearly resented the monarchy. The judges were the authority and it’s not like they were all awesome. Samson didn’t do anything but use his position to get into many positions with Philistine chicks. I’d want to rethink the government too.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I never mentioned “heaven”, to my recollection. I believe it was @CG Didymus who introduced the word into the conversation:

If I ever did mention “heaven”, then yes it would certainly have been in sarcasm. Do you know what “heaven” means? The sky. “Heaven” is the Anglo-Saxon word for “sky”, that’s it. To be entirely clear, as far as “heaven” (or “hell”) as some kind of eternal realm, or the “New Jerusalem”, or the “New Earth/Earth made new”, I have, as with the concept of “God”, “Satan”, and “the human soul”, no opinion or interest, as none of those concepts have been shown to me to have any kind of objective existence.

As for the continuation of Didymus’ post,

I will not try that again. I was once a Christian. As a Christian, I hoped for an afterlife of salvation, but I also placed reliance upon God for protection in this world, as well, the one life that I could be sure I had available to me. (Remember that the biblically mandated Christian eschatological standard pertaining to an “afterlife” is the Pauline concept of faith, not belief, and this despite the wording of the Nicene Creed. Pauline faith represents a much lower bar than belief, simply being “assurance of what one hopes to be true”. Therefore, as a Christian I had faith in an afterlife, but absolutely believed in the life of this world, with the rational consequence that God’s assistance in this life was much more important to me than any deific promises regarding a hypothetical afterlife.) In my hope for protection in this life, God utterly failed to protect me from a series of events which are still producing negative repercussions in my life. I have since that time characterized my former Christian practice with the words, “I might just as well have been praying to a brick wall.” God will not get a second chance to fail me, and in any case I have come to the conclusion that any and all belief and/or faith in deity whatsoever is both utterly irrational and perceptibly dangerous.
ok, sorry. If I misunderstood I apologize. Anyway, I'm still appreciative of Revelation 21:1-5 which speaks of heaven and the earth being a wonderful place forever. Eventually. So -- have a good one.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I’m not making up what happened. I’m just more realistic when I read it. Samuel clearly resented the monarchy. The judges were the authority and it’s not like they were all awesome. Samson didn’t do anything but use his position to get into many positions with Philistine chicks. I’d want to rethink the government too.
Hmmm ain't that true about some governmental leaders.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
“Israelites” were simply the Canaanite faction which accepted a new god (YHVH) in place of the traditional Canaanite gods. They grew out of and separated from the greater Canaanite population. All “Canaanite” ( כְּנַעֲנִיים , K’na’anim) means in Hebrew is “lowlanders” (referring specifically to “lowland Northwest Semites”, especially as juxtaposed to Aramim “highlanders”/“ highland Northwest Semites”). The k’na’anim included those who became the Israelites, those referred to as “Philistines”, the “Phoenicians”, and other small groups of “lowland” Semites in the Levant.
We can always go back to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as far as nations go. Yes, there was a god called "El" evidently which was a Canaanite god. I'll stop there for now. Take care, have a good one.
 
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