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Christians/LDS: Jesus of the Bible vs. Jesus of the BoM
- Thread starter Watchmen
- Start date
FFH
Veteran Member
The LDS edition of the King James has ALL of the Joseph Smith corrections (in the form of JST~Joseph Smith translation) footnotes.
I've compared it with the Joseph Smith Inspired Version now owned by the Community of Christ Church and it is the same, the same corrections are there.
Click on any scripture and if there is a JST footnote/correction it will be there in the LDS edition of the King James.
Scriptures
Look at the Lord's Prayer, for example, and it will give the corrections.
For example click on "lead" and it will give you the JST correction, "And suffer us not to be led into temptation".
Matt. 6: 13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
So with that said you can compare differences.
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FFH
Veteran Member
We need to be on common ground in order to discuss differences.
Now that we've established that there are differences, and where to look for them, we can continue.
Christian Pilgrim
Active Member
I would like for the thread to remain open. Why do you keep saying that nobody is willing to follow the rules? I think these conversations are very relevant to the thread topic. Maybe you should let the rule enforcement be handled by the RF staff? This is a great thread from the Christian perspective! Just because you may not like the answers, mean that the conversations are not related to the thread topic. If I came to this thread with a presuppositon that the Mormon Jesus is the same as the Biblical Jesus, and then found postings that challenged my presupposition, I would try to shut the thread down too. Doesn't that click on a light bulb?
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FFH
Veteran Member
Jesus wrote the Bible and the Book of Mormon (Another Testament of Jesus Christ) however men have changed the original writings, in order to fit their particular false beliefs of who Jesus is and what his gospel is all about.
The basic message of salvation through Jesus Christ is there in the King James, but many parts are missing and/or are in error, which causes us (the LDS religion) to appear to be in error and makes us appear to others as if we are worshipping a different Jesus than that of the Bible, even though it is the same divine being, Jesus Christ, who wrote both texts, but because the King James Bible has been altered, it makes us (the LDS faith) to appear to be worshipping a different Jesus.
The basic message of salvation through Jesus Christ is there in the King James, but many parts are missing and/or are in error, which causes us (the LDS religion) to appear to be in error and makes us appear to others as if we are worshipping a different Jesus than that of the Bible, even though it is the same divine being, Jesus Christ, who wrote both texts, but because the King James Bible has been altered, it makes us (the LDS faith) to appear to be worshipping a different Jesus.
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What answers? You have NEVER answered the OP. You NEVER showed a difference. If I'm wrong, direct me to a post of yours that answers the OP.
FFH
Veteran Member
I see what you're saying.
Christian Pilgrim
Active Member
I have used Christian doctrine and theolgy from the Bible to show you that the Mormon Jesus is a different Jesus than the Biblical Jesus. I still don't follow you very well.
You have not used the Bible and Book of Mormon to show similarities or differences of how Jesus is potrayed in each. Thus, you have not answered the OP.
If you think otherwise, direct me to one of your posts (preferably, one you're not editing as I type).
FFH
Veteran Member
Pick out a scripture from the Bible and compare it to the Book of Mormon and see if there are any theological differences between Jesus of the Bible and Jesus of the Book of Mormon.
Rather, you pick out a scripture about Jesus in the Bible and I'll see if there's a scripture in the Book of Mormon that agrees or disagrees with the King James Bible about who Jesus is.
I don't think there are any differences, the Book of Mormon really is a very basic writing and testament of Jesus Christ.
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Christian Pilgrim
Active Member
FFH
Veteran Member
This thread is only about the Bible and the Book of Mormon, so we have to stick to that. We need to compare Bible scripture to Book of Mormon scripture only in this thread.
We can start another thread discussing our FULL doctrine if we want.
The Book of Mormon is a BASIC testament of Jesus Christ. Pick out a Bible scripture about Jesus and compare.
Compare Isaiah 53 to Mosiah 14 (Isaiah's prophecy of Jesus Christ) They are identicle, so then people procede to accuse Joseph Smith of plagerizing the Bible rather than asserting our religious differences.
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You made the claim in the other thread that the Bible Jesus and BoM Jesus are different. Here is your chance to show how using the Bible and Book of Mormon.
Watchmen;
I think that part of my motivation to look at this debate initially was the concept of “patterns” that exist in various sacred literatures. In this same way, there are also “signature patterns” that exist in narrative testimonies of the Messiah (Jesus).
I am in the middle of a re-visit of Dead Sea Scrolls literature (a group of frankly Messianic Jews), I cannot help but notice patterns within the various sacred narratives. For example; Visions and parables seem to me to occur in patterns that form a consistent thread through Messianic literature but which are oblivious to superficial reading.
For example, The Vision of the tree of Life in the Book of Mormon. I noticed as I read the Book of Mormon that this was of the same pattern as the Sower and the Seed parable which Jesus explains to his disciples. That is, the same four types of groups people are represented in the vision/parable, and the same thing is happening among the four groups. The four groups reminds me of “The Vision of the Four Trees” (from 4Q552 Dead Sea Scrolls). Such patterns are fascinating.
Another example is “The parable of the Bountiful Tree” (from 4Q302). It feels as though it is a close cousin to the parable of the Olive tree of the Book of Mormon Narrative. The translator of my current DSS text, Michael Wise, comments regarding this narrative, that
The parallels and implications run deeper. For example, the Parable, as a manner of teaching is mainly a Messianic pattern associated with Jesus. For example: J. Jeremias pointed out years ago that the parable itself is a pattern of teaching NOT seen in all of the rabbinic literature before Jesus’ time. Parables certainly do exist in current rabbinic literature, but they came AFTER Jesus’ day. It is almost as though parables form part of his messianic “signature stamp”.
I do not think it is fair for me to ask regarding comparisons of the Book of Mormon Messiah and literature with the Messiah and literature from Dead Sea Quotes since it is NOT the OP, but someday I’d like to see that discussion since the various parallels with Messianic Jews would be interesting. These Jews especially were of the "vertical" tradition and still believed in revelation and emphasized the Holy Ghost in their doctrines.
I attended an Islamic forum for a time (so as to learn to understand some of their doctrines since I could NOT get accurate data from the Christian forums) and was able to discuss Quranic references to Joseph and compare them to Jewish Jasher and it was, I think, illuminating for us both. I find it very ironic that I, as an obvious christian, was allowed an OP on a Muslim site, which the Muslims allowed to proceed fairly orderly, but which you are not allowed, as a christian, in a “christian forum”.
FFH: I think you are certainly allowed your own opinion regarding the King James version. I agree with you that it is not perfect. But I wish that you could show it a bit more respect for the KJV. If you do not, I will understand. I simply do not think that "correcting the errors" in the KJV will NOT serve to "clarify everything". I think that there are multiple mechanisms at work for the various schisms and for the lack of charity between Christianities. However, you must decide for yourself what you must do. I'll respect your decision either way and I will not respect you less either way.
Clear
I think that part of my motivation to look at this debate initially was the concept of “patterns” that exist in various sacred literatures. In this same way, there are also “signature patterns” that exist in narrative testimonies of the Messiah (Jesus).
I am in the middle of a re-visit of Dead Sea Scrolls literature (a group of frankly Messianic Jews), I cannot help but notice patterns within the various sacred narratives. For example; Visions and parables seem to me to occur in patterns that form a consistent thread through Messianic literature but which are oblivious to superficial reading.
For example, The Vision of the tree of Life in the Book of Mormon. I noticed as I read the Book of Mormon that this was of the same pattern as the Sower and the Seed parable which Jesus explains to his disciples. That is, the same four types of groups people are represented in the vision/parable, and the same thing is happening among the four groups. The four groups reminds me of “The Vision of the Four Trees” (from 4Q552 Dead Sea Scrolls). Such patterns are fascinating.
Another example is “The parable of the Bountiful Tree” (from 4Q302). It feels as though it is a close cousin to the parable of the Olive tree of the Book of Mormon Narrative. The translator of my current DSS text, Michael Wise, comments regarding this narrative, that
Though this would mean nothing for most modern Christians (who generally shy away from the Scrolls because of it’s implications), it will mean something to you.
The parallels and implications run deeper. For example, the Parable, as a manner of teaching is mainly a Messianic pattern associated with Jesus. For example: J. Jeremias pointed out years ago that the parable itself is a pattern of teaching NOT seen in all of the rabbinic literature before Jesus’ time. Parables certainly do exist in current rabbinic literature, but they came AFTER Jesus’ day. It is almost as though parables form part of his messianic “signature stamp”.
I do not think it is fair for me to ask regarding comparisons of the Book of Mormon Messiah and literature with the Messiah and literature from Dead Sea Quotes since it is NOT the OP, but someday I’d like to see that discussion since the various parallels with Messianic Jews would be interesting. These Jews especially were of the "vertical" tradition and still believed in revelation and emphasized the Holy Ghost in their doctrines.
I attended an Islamic forum for a time (so as to learn to understand some of their doctrines since I could NOT get accurate data from the Christian forums) and was able to discuss Quranic references to Joseph and compare them to Jewish Jasher and it was, I think, illuminating for us both. I find it very ironic that I, as an obvious christian, was allowed an OP on a Muslim site, which the Muslims allowed to proceed fairly orderly, but which you are not allowed, as a christian, in a “christian forum”.
FFH: I think you are certainly allowed your own opinion regarding the King James version. I agree with you that it is not perfect. But I wish that you could show it a bit more respect for the KJV. If you do not, I will understand. I simply do not think that "correcting the errors" in the KJV will NOT serve to "clarify everything". I think that there are multiple mechanisms at work for the various schisms and for the lack of charity between Christianities. However, you must decide for yourself what you must do. I'll respect your decision either way and I will not respect you less either way.
Clear
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Okay, I finally made it back. My apologies if I misled anyone. I fully intended to respond to this the next day, but I have some health issues always seem to take priority.
Anyway, I can't tell from your post if this was a quote from the authors you mentioned or an interpretation of their writings. Unfortunately, I do not have access to the referenced book.
"In other words, not only was the city of Jerusalem referred to in this way, but the entire surrounding area. Thus, what was known as "the land of Judah" was also known as "the land of Jerusalem."
Do the authors say that the Land of Jerusalem and the land of Judah are synonymous? It is obvious from the Pseudo-Jeremiah text that the "land of Jerusalem" was referring to the city of Jerusalem.
All of that being said, I think that the most important issue is the lack of Biblical reference to the "land of Jerusalem." Nowhere do the texts address Jesus being in the "land of Jerusalem" and that is, after all, what we are discussing, isn't it?
Again my apologies for my tardiness.
Edward
I hope that this post satisfies the rules of engagement for this thread 
The Bible clearly states that at the time of Jesus' crucifixion darkness fell over the world/land for a period of three hours. It not only states it - it states it three times.
Matthew 27: 45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour
Mark 15: 33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
Luke 23: 44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
Now the Book of Mormon appears to say something else. At the times of Jesus' crucifixion, darkness fell over the land for a period of three days.
Helaman 14:20 But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead.
Helaman 14: 27 And he said unto me that while the thunder and the lightning lasted, and the tempest, that these things should be, and that darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of three days.
III Nephi 8: 3 And the people began to look with great earnestness for the sign which had been given by the prophet Samuel, the Lamanite, yea, for the time that there should be darkness for the space of three days over the face of the land.
III Nephi 8: 23 And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen; and there was great mourning and howling and weeping among all the people continually; yea, great were the groanings of the people, because of the darkness and the great destruction which had come upon them.
It appears that there seems a difference between the Biblical account of Jesus' sacrifice and the Book of Mormon account. Could it be that they are different events or is one source incorrect?
Edward
The Bible clearly states that at the time of Jesus' crucifixion darkness fell over the world/land for a period of three hours. It not only states it - it states it three times.
Matthew 27: 45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour
Mark 15: 33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
Luke 23: 44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
Now the Book of Mormon appears to say something else. At the times of Jesus' crucifixion, darkness fell over the land for a period of three days.
Helaman 14:20 But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead.
Helaman 14: 27 And he said unto me that while the thunder and the lightning lasted, and the tempest, that these things should be, and that darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of three days.
III Nephi 8: 3 And the people began to look with great earnestness for the sign which had been given by the prophet Samuel, the Lamanite, yea, for the time that there should be darkness for the space of three days over the face of the land.
III Nephi 8: 23 And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen; and there was great mourning and howling and weeping among all the people continually; yea, great were the groanings of the people, because of the darkness and the great destruction which had come upon them.
It appears that there seems a difference between the Biblical account of Jesus' sacrifice and the Book of Mormon account. Could it be that they are different events or is one source incorrect?
Edward
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silvermoon383
Well-Known Member
They're different events. Jerusalem and the Americas are separated by thousands of miles, and the timing of the 2 sets of darkness is different on each continent. The Jerusalem darkness (3 hours worth) happened while Christ was still on the cross. The American darkness (3 days worth) happened after Christ had died (since it and the other calamities were the signs that he had died.)
Also 1 quick note (no one's brought this up yet but I've seen it mentioned in the past): The Bible says his death happened in the late afternoon whereas the Book of Mormon says it happened in the morning (that's when the signs started). Some say that's a mistake, but it's not. The 2 accounts do line up when you take time zones into consideration. Late afternoon in Jerusalem is morning here in the Americas.
Also 1 quick note (no one's brought this up yet but I've seen it mentioned in the past): The Bible says his death happened in the late afternoon whereas the Book of Mormon says it happened in the morning (that's when the signs started). Some say that's a mistake, but it's not. The 2 accounts do line up when you take time zones into consideration. Late afternoon in Jerusalem is morning here in the Americas.