Circumcision should be banned

[Primordial Annihilator]

Your children? I thought you wanted them to be their own people and make up their own minds and decide for themselves what is important.

It would help is they could speak the same language as their peers and their parents...or they would likely face insurmountable difficulties...surely?

 

[PolyHedral]

Besides, they still can. It's not impossible to learn other languages.

It is, meanwhile, impossible to reconstruct organs.

 

[J2hapydna]

LOL...sorry that made me laugh.

PA,

Laughter is good medicine. Humans are suppose to make each other laugh.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Besides, they still can. It's not impossible to learn other languages.

Who is going to teach an infant these languages?
The learning of language is a crucial human development that starts from infancy.

It is, meanwhile, impossible to reconstruct organs.

Well...not thats not entirely accurate...scientists can grow human ears on mice...amongst other things.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

PA,

Laughter is good medicine. Humans are suppose to make each other laugh.

I could not agree more J2...frubals upon thee.

 

[J2hapydna]

Besides, they still can. It's not impossible to learn other languages.

It is, meanwhile, impossible to reconstruct organs.

It is not impossible to reconstruct the foreskin either. As an adult, it is impossible to learn to speak a new language like a native speaker too.

 

[no-body]

How about languages, perhaps we should not teach our children our languages until they are 18 yo so they can decide which language they want to learn too.

This reeks of all or nothing thinking. We could use a little thing called common sense and instead of trying to teach and imprint our own personal biases on kids teach them to think themselves from the start so we cure the disease instead of treating the symptoms of society.

But who would want to do a crazy thing like that? Let's continue training our children to be little clones of ourselves so we can satisfy our egos for eternity.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

This reeks of all or nothing thinking. We could use a little thing called common sense and instead of trying to teach and imprint our own personal biases on kids teach them to think themselves from the start so we cure the disease instead of treating the symptoms of society.

But who would want to do a crazy thing like that? Let's continue training our children to be little clones of ourselves so we can satisfy our egos for eternity.

I agree. It aggrivates me to no end that parents think kids are supposed to be robots that they program at a young age. My dad is like that. Frubals

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Besides, they still can. It's not impossible to learn other languages.

It is, meanwhile, impossible to reconstruct organs.

It is possible, however, to reconstruct a penis....

 

[J2hapydna]

This reeks of all or nothing thinking. We could use a little thing called common sense and instead of trying to teach and imprint our own personal biases on kids teach them to think themselves from the start so we cure the disease instead of treating the symptoms of society.

But who would want to do a crazy thing like that? Let's continue training our children to be little clones of ourselves so we can satisfy our egos for eternity.

Hopefully, nobody would want to do a crazy thing like that, that was my point. I was being sarcastic, we all influence our children thru language, culture and religion, so why not circumcision? Just because someone does not want to cricumcise their child does not mean everyone else should not circumcise their children too. We are all born in different cultures, societies, religions & languages etc and do things differently. Those who bring up their children speaking Hebrew and Arabic etc for example, will want them to read the best and most creative ancient texts in these languages, which are all religious, such as the Bible and the Quran etc. These texts contain stories with heroes who were circumcised. Children who are brought up on these stories feel comfortable knowing they are circumcised because they are on the side of their heroes, the prophets.

 

[PolyHedral]

It is possible, however, to reconstruct a penis....

Not to a quality identical to it not being messed with in the first place.

I was being sarcastic, we all influence our children thru language, culture and religion, so why not circumcision?

Because it's a semi-irreversible medical procedure with no benefit! (In the majority of cases. Medical reasons are perfectly valid.)

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Hopefully, nobody would want to do a crazy thing like that, that was my point. I was being sarcastic, we all influence our children thru language, culture and religion, so why not circumcision? Just because someone does not want to cricumcise their child does not mean everyone else should not circumcise their children too. We are all born in different cultures, societies, religions & languages etc and do things differently. Those who bring up their children speaking Hebrew and Arabic etc for example, will want them to read the best and most creative ancient texts in these languages, which are all religious, such as the Bible and the Quran etc. These texts contain stories with heroes who were circumcised. Children who are brought up on these stories feel comfortable knowing they are circumcised because they are on the side of their heroes, the prophets.

Personally I never had much time for heroes- Dumbledore

 

[Levite]

I am opposed to any sort of ceremony where an infant is deemed to be a lifetime member of a religion. Most of the time, the ceremony that I have in mind is infant baptism, but most of the objections I have to that practice apply to ritual circumcision as well.

I can't speak for other religions, but Judaism is unique in that it is a socioreligious ethnicity: religion and culture are inextricably combined, in ways that are not true for all religions. So circumcision for us part of both. And when you say that you oppose it, you're essentially saying that you not only object to the practice of our religion, but you oppose passing on our culture also. This is why such a statement is problematic.

I'm not going to take away your legal rights to raise your children as you see fit, but if someone asks me for my opinion of circumcision, I'm sure not going to lie and say that I think it's a good thing.

Nor would I ask you to lie. But what you've said is key. "I'm not going to take away your legal rights to raise your children as you see fit." That's all I am concerned about. We would be foolish indeed to desire the approval of all non-Jews for Judaism. Tolerance and equal protection will more than suffice. And besides, Judaism concerns itself with actions, not with thoughts.

What you are doing is wrong in many eyes, like it or not....you are mutilating your children for religious reasons which in the secular world is highly unnacceptable.

I'm clearly not going to discuss what is or is not mutilation with you: your mind is made up, and you have no inclination to actual talking. Suffice it to say that we do not agree that circumcision is mutilation. But as for "unacceptable" in the secular world: I know a ton of non-Jews who have no problems with circumcision. Some are even circumcised. I have friends who are atheists who are circumcised and who circumcised their sons. I have, in fact, run into very few people who are at all bothered about circumcision (and they are inevitably both ignorant and monomaniacal). What you mean is that circumcision is unacceptable to you personally, and everyone ought to live by your personal likes and dislikes.

Which is why I can dismiss your views with such ease and relief.

Yes 'you' should respect secular governments around the world in which Jews live under...they are not there to kow tow to your religious aberrations...do what you like in Israel....why should I tolerate child mutilation in my nation?
I don't care what your religion is..your religion means nothing to me..absolutely nothing...couldnt care less about your religious rights...especially if they involve mutilating babies.

Fortunately, most countries in the Western world embrace a concept called "freedom." This concept, which appears to be unknown to you, means that the government has no right to interfere with my harmless religious practices, and that my right to be a Jew as a citizen of my country is enshrined in law, and all must respect it. Just the same as I must respect the right of citizens of my country to not be Jews, or to embrace political views other than what I hold, or for that matter, to invent for themselves any sort of silly religion they like to help them express their negativity and antisocial tendencies. There is no secular government to which Jews must "kowtow" in regards to our religious practices, only in the matter of our usual duties as citizens-- taxes, voting, etc.

And if you don't like such freedoms, I heartily recommend that you go to China, or the Sudan, or some other dictatorship where they would concur with your views.

But the idea that somehow Jews should reduce their Jewishness because it offends your notions about secular culture? Claptrap.

You circumcise because your religion says you should...however I don't care about your covenant, it means nothing to me and like any barbaric religious practice it should be banned in secular nations.

You should count yourself fortunate that such ideas are not, in fact, political currency these days. I guarantee, your religion would be way ahead of mine in line for the receiving end of such intolerance.

I can't help noting that your secularity, in your view, seems far more intolerant, rigid, and repressive than most religious practice. It sounds fanatically fundamentalist.

I am saying I harbor no ill will towards Jews, if I did, I would hate my own grandmother. Which I don't.

If your mother's mother was Jewish, that means by Jewish law, you are Jewish. And this thread means that you are an utter disgrace to the Jewish people. It's unfortunate that we have no excommunication. I am sincerely glad that your grandmother's antecedents are not around to witness the sickening shame and degredation you are visiting upon their legacy.

Well seeing as circumcision removes a good deal of the nerves in the penis, what do you think those nerves do?

Circumcision does not remove a good deal of the nerves in the penis. My wife is the executive director of the Brit Milah Program of Reform Judaism, which trains Jewish doctors and other Jewish health professionals already qualified to do circumcisions how to do the Jewish ritual portion of the act in order for it to be acceptable to Jewish law. Her advisory team of board-qualified urologists have all assured prospective parents of sons that circumcision does not demonstrably reduce sensation, nor does it impair either sexual function, or proper enjoyment of sex.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

If your mother's mother was Jewish, that means by Jewish law, you are Jewish. And this thread means that you are an utter disgrace to the Jewish people. It's unfortunate that we have no excommunication. I am sincerely glad that your grandmother's antecedents are not around to witness the sickening shame and degredation you are visiting upon their legacy.

How dare you?

That is a disgusting personal attack upon myself.

I will not forget that Levite.

You have made a grave mistake talking to me like that...control your emotion or go debate elsewhere...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Not to a quality identical to it not being messed with in the first place.

That's prejudice.

 

[Levite]

How dare you?

That is a disgusting personal attack upon myself.

I will not forget that Levite.

I thought you didn't care what people think. And by your previous tone, you clearly have nothing but contempt for Jewish practice.

And yet, one rabbi declares your behavior shameful to your Jewish legacy, and you 'will not forget' it?

Strange.

Stirrings of conscience, perhaps?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

If your mother's mother was Jewish, that means by Jewish law, you are Jewish. And this thread means that you are an utter disgrace to the Jewish people. It's unfortunate that we have no excommunication. I am sincerely glad that your grandmother's antecedents are not around to witness the sickening shame and degredation you are visiting upon their legacy.

Levite if I didn't respect you so much for other reasons I'd ignore you for this comment.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

I thought you didn't care what people think. And by your previous tone, you clearly have nothing but contempt for Jewish practice.

And yet, one rabbi declares your behavior shameful to your Jewish legacy, and you 'will not forget' it?

Strange.

Stirrings of conscience, perhaps?

I am proud of my legacy...rabbi.
It is not your place to reprimand me publically.
If you must admonish do it privately..do not embarrass me and yourself in public.
I only opposed circumcision not everything jewish and I have every right...this is a debate site sir...whatever my ancestry...I am not beholden to you or the Jewish people.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Are we to assume that all Jews support circumcision just because our ancestors did it? Jews can't be different? A Jew opposing the accepted norm is automatically a self-hater? Are you kidding me?

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Are we to assume that all Jews support circumcision just because our ancestors did it? Jews can't be different? A Jew opposing the accepted norm is automatically a self-hater? Are you kidding me?

Levite must accept that Jewish I might be by blood but I am a Gnostic Luciferian in thought and I dont believe in Judaism nor do I feel any loyalty to Judaic principles.

If I am to go to hell for that...then so be it.