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Circumcision should be banned

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
From the sources penguin cited the risk is little to none with most cases requiring a simple treatment to the problem.

So call me back when parents are chastised and food is regulated so that the decisions they make doesn't affect whether or not they'll grow up to be obese.

Yeah circumcision is the real problem here...
As a point of comparison...

22 deaths and 44 non-fatal incidents in the United States over a 14-year period were considered sufficient reason to ban drawstrings on children's clothing. (source) That's less than 5 serious incidents per year in a country of more than 300 million people.

Do you think that circumcision carries more or less risk than drawstrings?
 
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Primordial Annihilator

Well-Known Member
As a point of comparison...

22 deaths and 44 non-fatal incidents in the United States over a 14-year period were considered sufficient reason to ban drawstrings on children's clothing. (source) That's less than 5 serious incidents per year in a country of more than 300 million people.

Do you think that circumcision carries more or less risk than drawstrings?

You should be a lawyer...unless you already are.

Great point.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
You should be a lawyer...unless you already are.

Great point.
No, I'm not a lawyer.

Also, just to point it out again: I'm not looking to have circumcision banned.

I generally see where people are coming from on the issue of ritual circumcision for religious or cultural reasons, but I think that in those cases where it's being done for purely aesthetic reasons or just as a matter of course, it's an absurd practice.

If you think that your God commands you to do it... okay; I see why you'd think that's important. Same goes for cultural identity: I see why you wouldn't want your kid to be ostracized.

But in those other cases... subjecting an infant to unnecessary cosmetic surgery - even minor, low-risk cosmetic surgery - just to satisfy arbitrary personal preferences? That's insane, IMO. Especially if the parents involved overlook the risk in this case and then have no problem turning around and calling for a recall for some very unlikely, infrequent fault with their model of crib.
 

Primordial Annihilator

Well-Known Member
No, I'm not a lawyer.

A pity.

Also, just to point it out again: I'm not looking to have circumcision banned.

Good for you...mind the splinters. :D

However if you allow it for religious reasons then you cant very well have a problem with it for aesthetic and general practice reasons...why give preferential treatment to religion as a lifestyle choice parents have and deny it to other parents who just want their boys to be circumcised for other reasons, other lifestyle choices (couldnt really see aesthetic considerations being a common reason for circumcision and it certainly isnt standard practice in most nations on earth not mine anyway)

Fundamentally the child has no say in either...there is no choice for that individual to make later...it has been taken from him .
It is still unnecessary for health reasons and even carries a 'slight' risk of death and injury as you have pointed out.
It is still a form of mutilation...deformation and loss of nerve endings...physical damage and loss of sexual sensitivity...albeit tolerable for many...but then they have known no different have they?
 
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Levite

Higher and Higher
That doesnt matter to me and I have to say that is a dishonest argument...we could be apathetic about all & everything that YOU subjectively percieve to be of little import.

Circumcision remains three things...in my subjective understanding.

A denial of personal choice.
Unnecessary for any health reasons (In normal circumstances).
Mutilation.

I have stated I would be willing to live with a compromise such as the one I mentioned which as I predicted no one really liked much.
But if you cannot compromise or live with a compromise then I see that I have no choice but revert to my original position of outright ban...unless someone can think of a better compromise.

Fortunately for the rest of us, the attitude of the law (at least in the United States) is that the state must have compelling reasons to prevent people from exercising their rights in raising children and practicing their religion. Parents are regularly deemed to have the authority to make all kinds of choices on behalf of their children, both concerning health and body, and otherwise.

There is no particular accumulation of precedent or overwhelming social momentum to indicate that people are particularly concerned about circumcision as potential "mutilation."

While it may or may not be medically unnecessary, there is also an overwhelming amount of opinion in the medical community that the procedure causes no harm.

In other words, even setting aside for a moment the real issue of freedom of religion, it's not that important, there is no legal standing to consider it urgent, and not many people care: it's a tempest in a teacup.

That is a choice a parent should not be allowed to make....not without the possibility of litigation from the victim/plaintiff later...at least.

For the three reasons I have stated.

De minimis non curat lex.
 

Primordial Annihilator

Well-Known Member
In other words, even setting aside for a moment the real issue of freedom of religion, it's not that important, there is no legal standing to consider it urgent, and not many people care: it's a tempest in a teacup.

Lets NOT set aside the REAL issue of religious freedom

Lets discuss the freedom of religious choice.

If you circumcise someone at a young age you remove someones ability to make a choice, when they are mature enough to do so.

You dont seem to be fully able to grasp this...you seem to think that children are the property of their parents...no...they are their guardians.

De minimis non curat lex.

In your opinion.... ;)

Which means little to me...philosophically speaking...no offence.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
However if you allow it for religious reasons then you cant very well have a problem with it for aesthetic and general practice reasons...why give preferential treatment to religion as a lifestyle choice parents have and deny it to other parents who just want their boys to be circumcised for other reasons, other lifestyle choices (couldnt really see aesthetic considerations being a common reason for circumcision and it certainly isnt standard practice in most nations on earth not mine anyway)
Religious/cultural cases aside, I think the most common reason for circumcision in North America is a notion, now found to be incorrect, that circumcision has definite medical benefits. These days, it still hangs on as a habit for no good reason, or for vague "I just think it's better"-type reasons, some of which have been given in this thread.

And I'm not talking about preferential treatment for religion. I'm not saying we should ban circumcision for anyone. That still doesn't mean that I can't dismiss people who would subject their children to the procedure for nothing more than arbitrary personal reasons (i.e. non-religious/non-cultural reasons) as damn fools.

What I would like to see is a situation where circumcision stays legal, but doctors stop recommending routine circumcisions for healthy baby boys, and instead provide accurate information about the benefits and risks of the procedure. If you want to do it for your own son, I won't stop you... whether it's for religious reasons, cultural reasons, or because you just think it's a really good idea.

I won't do it for my kids, and if I was a doctor (which I'm not), I probably wouldn't perform the procedure myself except in medically necessary cases, but I'm not looking to actually make it illegal.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Lets NOT set aside the REAL issue of religious freedom

Lets discuss the freedom of religious choice.

If you circumcise someone at a young age you remove someones ability to make a choice, when they are mature enough to do so.

You dont seem to be fully able to grasp this...you seem to think that children are the property of their parents...no...they are their guardians.

I grasp your point just fine. I disagree with it. I believe it is not only the prerogative, but the responsibility of parents to pass on the values, practices, ideals, philosophy, and attendant ritual, literary, and spiritual legacies of their culture/religion to their children. That is part of good guardianship.

Culture is not passed on in a vacuum. French people raise their kids to be French, to speak French, to embrace French literature, love French food, and other French stuff. Yoruba raise their kids to be Yoruba, to speak the Yoruba languages, and to embrace their various tribal forms of scarification. Maori, who were almost culturally annihilated by colonialism, are again beginning to raise their kids to speak Maori, to learn the tales and crafts of their ancestors, and to be tattooed in the old styles. We all have stuff we pass on. When grown, people get to make choices about how much they will accept or reject their culture, but culture will be lost of parents make no attempt to pass it on.

It is the responsibility of Jewish parents to raise Jews. Part of that responsibility is to ensure our boys are circumcised properly at eight days of age. Not doing so is a failure to be a good Jewish parent, and is both depriving the child of complete affiliation with his culture, but making it much more painful and demanding for him to affiliate later by choice.

The idea that one should withhold the fullness of cultural integration on the assumption that those sorts of choices should be made as an adult is a fallacy. Because once withheld, by the time the child is an adult, he will not have acculturated, and will be hard put to understand the value of the choice he is offered. That kind of idea is usually just camouflage for a universalist cultural assimilation agenda-- which I am not accusing you of fostering, but am merely pointing out that this is how that idea is generally employed. And for good reason, as, almost inevitably, failure of parents to acculturate their children leads to assimilation and loss of cultural identity.

If you don't value your culture, that's your right. And nobody should force you to do so. But nobody has the right to simply condemn cultures to death because they feel uncomfortable with elements of that culture. Again, if you don't approve, don't join that culture, or if you're already part of it, leave it.
 

J2hapydna

Active Member
That is a choice a parent should not be allowed to make....not without the possibility of litigation from the victim/plaintiff later...at least.

For the three reasons I have stated.

Should you be allowed to teach your children english, when the future is Chinese? Should your children have the right to sue you for teaching them english instead of the language of tomorrow, chinese?
 

Primordial Annihilator

Well-Known Member
I grasp your point just fine. I disagree with it. I believe it is not only the prerogative, but the responsibility of parents to pass on the values, practices, ideals, philosophy, and attendant ritual, literary, and spiritual legacies of their culture/religion to their children. That is part of good guardianship.

Is it?
To me that is that is just a conservative traditionalist orthodox viewpoint...not invalid but not necessarily optimal or reasonable for whatever agenda it is that my viewpoint runs to...
Take creationism for example...that is another religiously derived teaching that is very much opposed to my agenda or at least the one my viewpoint is concordant with.

Culture is not passed on in a vacuum. French people raise their kids to be French, to speak French, to embrace French literature, love French food, and other French stuff. Yoruba raise their kids to be Yoruba, to speak the Yoruba languages, and to embrace their various tribal forms of scarification. Maori, who were almost culturally annihilated by colonialism, are again beginning to raise their kids to speak Maori, to learn the tales and crafts of their ancestors, and to be tattooed in the old styles. We all have stuff we pass on. When grown, people get to make choices about how much they will accept or reject their culture, but culture will be lost of parents make no attempt to pass it on.

How can you make a choice to reject a culture if it stares you in the face every morning?


It is the responsibility of Jewish parents to raise Jews. Part of that responsibility is to ensure our boys are circumcised properly at eight days of age. Not doing so is a failure to be a good Jewish parent, and is both depriving the child of complete affiliation with his culture, but making it much more painful and demanding for him to affiliate later by choice.

It is the responsibility of the state to ensure that religion is not allowed to give people extraordinary powers over others..including children...it is the responsibility of the state to ensure that the rights of all citizens of whatever age are supported including the right to choose to have surgery on ones penis or not.
Jewish culture is a sub culture of the national culture (unless it is Israeli) therefore that culture is the primary identity of that citizen whatever his parents' sub culture is.

The idea that one should withhold the fullness of cultural integration on the assumption that those sorts of choices should be made as an adult is a fallacy. Because once withheld, by the time the child is an adult, he will not have acculturated, and will be hard put to understand the value of the choice he is offered. That kind of idea is usually just camouflage for a universalist cultural assimilation agenda-- which I am not accusing you of fostering, but am merely pointing out that this is how that idea is generally employed. And for good reason, as, almost inevitably, failure of parents to acculturate their children leads to assimilation and loss of cultural identity.

I fully believe in a one world order resulting in the eventual complete assimilation of all cultures into a composite global one and I support the notion entirely...not however a one world order run by bankers and arms dealers.

If you don't value your culture, that's your right. And nobody should force you to do so. But nobody has the right to simply condemn cultures to death because they feel uncomfortable with elements of that culture. Again, if you don't approve, don't join that culture, or if you're already part of it, leave it.

I dream to be a part of a greater culture undivided and universal.
May all the cultures pool together like mercury into something new and something better.
 
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Primordial Annihilator

Well-Known Member
Should you be allowed to teach your children english, when the future is Chinese? Should your children have the right to sue you for teaching them english instead of the language of tomorrow, chinese?

The future is chinese?

We will all be speaking chinese soon?

How did you work that out?

They planning something big?
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
What world are you living in? Because, in my opinion, that is more delusional than my getting Natalie Portman as a sex slave. A one world order? Might as well bring in the clones.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
I guess this whole thread is a classic metaphor of human history.
Gentile penis envy. :cool:
gotta love it boys. please do go on and entertain us. I have never knew, and I'm sure neither did the learned Rabbi Levite in all our years of studying that all the woes of our people were concentrated on such a simple, primal, and primitive issue- The Jewish male's member. evidently it must be the eternal phallic symbol of human civilization.
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
What I don't get is that you are sitting there having a fit about parents forcing religion on our kids and you want to force assimilation on those of us that enjoy our uniqueness. Please this.
 

Primordial Annihilator

Well-Known Member
I guess this whole thread is a classic metaphor of human history.
Gentile penis envy. :cool:
gotta love it boys. please do go on and entertain us. I have never knew, and I'm sure neither did the learned Rabbi Levite in all our years of studying that all the woes of our people were concentrated on such a simple, primal, and primitive issue- The Jewish male's member. evidently it must be the eternal phallic symbol of human civilization.

Ahem..and Muslim male members too of course.

Think of this discussion as setting a precident for how we view how questionable authority is given to those in the name of religion...and the observance of the rights of everyone :cool:
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
gotta love it boys. please do go on and entertain us. I have never knew, and I'm sure neither did the learned Rabbi Levite in all our years of studying that all the woes of our people were concentrated on such a simple, primal, and primitive issue- The Jewish male's member. evidently it must be the eternal phallic symbol of human civilization.
It is hard to comprehend anyone getting worked up about the "issue".
 

Primordial Annihilator

Well-Known Member
What I don't get is that you are sitting there having a fit about parents forcing religion on our kids and you want to force assimilation on those of us that enjoy our uniqueness. Please this.

I would not seek to remove uniqueness but I would seek to remove special priviledges that violate basic human rights...if they also happen to be divisive then that is a boon.
 
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