Circumcision should be banned

[Rakhel]

There is no hell in Judaism

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

There is no hell in Judaism

Fair enough.

In that case it's win win.

 

[sandandfoam]

Banned huh?

I'm surprised there's not a thread saying the surgery shouldn't end with the foreskin

 

[Caladan]

How dare you?

That is a disgusting personal attack upon myself.

I will not forget that Levite.

You have made a grave mistake talking to me like that...control your emotion or go debate elsewhere...

What ARE you going to do? cast a curse on the good Rabbi? :biglaugh:
so much for not 'giving a crap' for what Jews or anyone else think about you.
oh I am certainly going to enjoy this.
Rabbi Levite, shall we play?
we have at least a couple of threads to strike Torah in the kids?

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

What ARE you going to do? cast a curse on the good Rabbi? :biglaugh:
so much for not 'giving a crap' for what Jews or anyone else think about you.
oh I am certainly going to enjoy this.
Rabbi Levite, shall we play?
we have at least a couple of threads to strike Torah in the kids?

Interesting statement from a member of staff.

In response to a personal attack...

Go ahead and mock me Caladan..if it pleases you.

We shall see who is laughing....hardest

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Your children? I thought you wanted them to be their own people and make up their own minds and decide for themselves what is important.

A child will need to know language to function before that.

Also, it's not as if I even have a choice: children naturally learn language from those around them. If I make no decision at all on what language to teach my children, they'll end up speaking English just because that's the language they're surrounded with.

In contrast, a child can be a fully functional member of society even if they aren't circumcised. And if a parent never makes a decision either way to circumcise their child, the child will grow up with a foreskin.

I can't speak for other religions, but Judaism is unique in that it is a socioreligious ethnicity: religion and culture are inextricably combined, in ways that are not true for all religions. So circumcision for us part of both. And when you say that you oppose it, you're essentially saying that you not only object to the practice of our religion, but you oppose passing on our culture also. This is why such a statement is problematic.

As is the practice of circumcision, IMO.

I'm a freethinker and a humanist. I believe that people should be free to make up their own minds on matters of conscience, and that they should be free, as much as possible, to base their beliefs and positions on logic and reason. I think that part of valuing the inherent worth of a person is to value both their opinions and the process that will let them freely arrive at those opinions.

How can this be reconciled with the practice of ritual circumcision, whether we're talking about it from a religious point of view, a cultural point of view, or a mixture of both? I'm not sure that it can be reconciled.

BTW - I mentioned the practice in some African countries of scarification... usually with some sort of mark on the cheek, either done as a teenager as a rite of passage or as a small child as a mark of membership in the tribe. What do you think of this practice?

Nor would I ask you to lie. But what you've said is key. "I'm not going to take away your legal rights to raise your children as you see fit." That's all I am concerned about. We would be foolish indeed to desire the approval of all non-Jews for Judaism. Tolerance and equal protection will more than suffice. And besides, Judaism concerns itself with actions, not with thoughts.

But earlier, you condemned those who would say that circumcision is wrong as "anti-Semitic". Did you just mean those who would say it's wrong... as justification for banning it?

Fortunately, most countries in the Western world embrace a concept called "freedom." This concept, which appears to be unknown to you, means that the government has no right to interfere with my harmless religious practices, and that my right to be a Jew as a citizen of my country is enshrined in law, and all must respect it. Just the same as I must respect the right of citizens of my country to not be Jews, or to embrace political views other than what I hold, or for that matter, to invent for themselves any sort of silly religion they like to help them express their negativity and antisocial tendencies. There is no secular government to which Jews must "kowtow" in regards to our religious practices, only in the matter of our usual duties as citizens-- taxes, voting, etc.

And if you don't like such freedoms, I heartily recommend that you go to China, or the Sudan, or some other dictatorship where they would concur with your views.

But the idea that somehow Jews should reduce their Jewishness because it offends your notions about secular culture? Claptrap.

I think there are two important ways in which freedom enters into this:

- the freedom of a parent to raise their child in the manner they consider appropriate.
- the freedom of a person to decide matters of faith and conscience for himself/herself.

Circumcision is tricky, because it works toward the first example of freedom while working against the second.

I believe that we all have the absolute right to follow our consciences in matters of belief. I believe this is the larger principle at work in your right to be Jewish. It's also at work in my right to be atheist. How should it be at work in the case of your son?

From my point of view, the same principle that implies your right to be Jewish if you choose also implies your son's right not to be Jewish if he so chooses.

How do we resolve this dilemma while still protecting the practice of infant circumcision?

Personally, I don't see a way to resolve it. It's just that I think the harm of having some government agency micro-manage the way people raise their children would far outweigh the harm such a scheme would prevent.

 

[Caladan]

Interesting statement from a member of staff.

In response to a personal attack...

Go ahead and mock me Caladan..if it pleases you.

We shall see who is laughing....hardest

You are so cute, I could pinch you.

 

[Levite]

I am proud of my legacy...rabbi.
It is not your place to reprimand me publically.
If you must admonish do it privately..do not embarrass me and yourself in public.
I only opposed circumcision not everything jewish and I have every right...this is a debate site sir...whatever my ancestry...I am not beholden to you or the Jewish people.

If we want to be technical, actually, it is my place to reprimand you publicly. Every Jew has the obligation to confront and reprove his fellow Jew. If the matter at hand is one that is personal and not of concern to the Jewish people as a whole, then the obligation is confront and reprove the other in private. But if the matter at hand is concerning the Jewish people as whole and our duties to commandments and God, then the obligation is to confront and reprove the other publicly.

Circumcision is a foundation of Jewish thought and practice, to say nothing of identity. It is indispensible. It is not to be dismissed or persecuted.

And as a Jew, you are beholden to the rest of the Jewish people. We all are. The fact that no one will compel you to honor that beholding is irrelevant. And while I would certainly not be the one to come in with force and compel you to be circumcised or even to circumcise your son, I will not make any bones about your disrespect for your people's legacy, or your choice to abrogate your duties as a Jew.

Are we to assume that all Jews support circumcision just because our ancestors did it? Jews can't be different? A Jew opposing the accepted norm is automatically a self-hater? Are you kidding me?

We can assume that Jews who don't support circumcision are not practicing Judaism, and they are betraying the inheritance of their culture. Whether we want to label that as "self-hating" is debatable, and to me makes little difference. Circumcision is a fundamental mark of identity, a foundational point of Jewish thought and practice. Until and unless the majority of the Jewish people alter that fact, using the proper methods of halakhic interpretation, the nature of circumcision will not change, and rejection of it is rejection of a cornerstone of Judaism.

But earlier, you condemned those who would say that circumcision is wrong as "anti-Semitic". Did you just mean those who would say it's wrong... as justification for banning it?

If I was unclear, I apologize. I have some problem with Jews saying that circumcision is wrong. But my major issue here, the one I consider of overriding importance, is people saying that circumcision should be outlawed, regardless of circumstance. Merely saying one thinks that circumcision is wrong is not, IMO, anti-Semitic, although it might be intolerant. Actively seeking to outlaw circumcision, despite its importance in Jewish practice and identity...that I am calling anti-Semitic.

BTW - I mentioned the practice in some African countries of scarification... usually with some sort of mark on the cheek, either done as a teenager as a rite of passage or as a small child as a mark of membership in the tribe. What do you think of this practice?

I think that I don't belong to those cultures. And as far as I know, such practices do not unduly interfere with the proper functioning of the body. And until I hear of any statistically significant number of people from those cultures protesting the practice, and indicating that it is unwanted and forced upon them, it is not my business or place to presume to judge how others deal with their cultural practices and ritual beliefs.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Well Levite at least you acknowledge this, that Judaism isn't all Jews.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

If we want to be technical, actually, it is my place to reprimand you publicly. Every Jew has the obligation to confront and reprove his fellow Jew. If the matter at hand is one that is personal and not of concern to the Jewish people as a whole, then the obligation is confront and reprove the other in private. But if the matter at hand is concerning the Jewish people as whole and our duties to commandments and God, then the obligation is to confront and reprove the other publicly.

Circumcision is a foundation of Jewish thought and practice, to say nothing of identity. It is indispensible. It is not to be dismissed or persecuted.

And as a Jew, you are beholden to the rest of the Jewish people. We all are. The fact that no one will compel you to honor that beholding is irrelevant. And while I would certainly not be the one to come in with force and compel you to be circumcised or even to circumcise your son, I will not make any bones about your disrespect for your people's legacy, or your choice to abrogate your duties as a Jew.

For me the right of choice takes precident over all other considerations.
To circumcise my sons would equate to denying them that choice, the choice my mother gave to me.

In your view I am a Jew, maybe in the strictest sense I am, but not in my view, in my view I am a human being with a jewish mother and jewish grandparents therefore I do not recognise your right to defame me and label me some kind of traitor to the Jews and Judaism, everyone is my people...be they white or black...rastafarian or hindu...or of course jewish.

I believe in God Levite believe it or not but somehow I do...and I know that my relationship with God does not depend upon the state of my penis...as good a specimen of a penis as it may be.
I don't know this from scripture because I adhere to no scripture...I know this from Gnosis I think...I am a Gnostic, I learn.
Now...to be totally truthful with you I don't know much about Judiasm as my mother did not keep up much tradition in that respect but I do now know how much circumcision means to Jews, from what I gather from responses here.
If I seemed like I was persecutory then keep in mind that perhaps I was ignorant of the depth of feeling about the subject.

However that does not sway my view...the right of choice remains paramount.

Once circumcised always circumcised right Rabbi?

I send this in the spirit of kinship and do not usually bother to explain my reasoning at great depth.

I do not normally care what people call me.

But traitor annoys me....I have been called it before by those who oppose my religious beliefs...it gets on my nerves.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

You are so cute, I could pinch you.

I am very cute and pinchable....

 

[Levite]

For me the right of choice takes precident over all other considerations.
To circumcise my sons would equate to denying them that choice, the choice my mother gave to me.

In your view I am a Jew, maybe in the strictest sense I am, but not in my view, in my view I am a human being with a jewish mother and jewish grandparents therefore I do not recognise your right to defame me and label me some kind of traitor to the Jews and Judaism, everyone is my people...be they white or black...rastafarian or hindu...or of course jewish.

I believe in God Levite believe it or not but somehow I do...and I know that my relationship with God does not depend upon the state of my penis...as good a specimen of a penis as it may be.
I don't know this from scripture because I adhere to no scripture...I know this from Gnosis I think...I am a Gnostic, I learn.
Now...to be totally truthful with you I don't know much about Judiasm as my mother did not keep up much tradition in that respect but I do now know how much circumcision means to Jews, from what I gather from responses here.
If I seemed like I was persecutory then keep in mind that perhaps I was ignorant of the depth of feeling about the subject.

However that does not sway my view...the right of choice remains paramount.

Once circumcised always circumcised right Rabbi?

I send this in the spirit of kinship and do not usually bother to explain my reasoning at great depth.

I do not normally care what people call me.

But traitor annoys me....I have been called it before by those who oppose my religious beliefs...it gets on my nerves.

I see that you have taken great pains to explain, and to lay bare your feelings, and I want to acknowledge that, and state that it is appreciated. It does make a difference.

Judaism is chiefly concerned with actions, and not thoughts or feelings. As such, your choice not to be circumcised, or to circumcise any sons you may have, is unfortunate, in that it bars you and any sons you may have from full participation in Jewish community and life, and signals-- whether you wish it so or not-- a rejection of our ways, traditions, and community.

That does not mean that by Jewish standards you are a bad person, per se, but it does mean that you are rejecting your people and your place in our tradition, and that is not good Jewish behavior.

What is most problematic, though, is not that you yourself choose not to be circumcised, or to otherwise participate in Jewish life, or even that you would deny that to any sons you might have. The real issue is that you would seek to deny that identity and participation to other Jews. This is the action that Judaism must be concerned with.

Ultimately, your personal choices about circumcision are between you and God: if He has a problem with it, He will take it up with you, and it is not for the rest of us to force you to do what you do not wish to do-- although, as I mentioned, if you were to seek active participation in the Jewish community, it might be for the rest of us to tell you that you needed to be circumcised first. But if you do not seek such active participation, it is not the business of the rest of the Jewish people.

It only becomes our business when you would try to take away that observance from the rest of us.

I'm sorry if what I said upset you, but ultimately, this is just a choice that you have to make. If you truly do not wish to be a Jew, and in fact you wish to help destroy something that is integral to Judaism, then you cannot be upset by someone pointing out that what you do is both unacceptable to Judaism, and is actively antithetical to a way of life which hundreds of generations of Jews-- including your ancestors-- struggled to preserve, and which they laid down their lives to protect. Judaism includes both circumcision, and the idea that Jews need to be Jews. No one can force you to believe in Jewish teachings, or to follow Jewish principles, or even to tolerate Jewish ideas. But you can't have it both ways.

You can be a Jew who is not observant and rejects his tradition, but tolerates it in other Jews, which is unfortunate, but ultimately is just between you and God. Or you can be a Jew who rejects his tradition and seeks to harm it, which is unacceptable to the Jewish people. But you can't be a Jew who rejects his tradition and seeks to harm it, and yet still claims to value his Jewish legacy and supports Judaism.

It's up to you.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Interesting.

Then there must be some kind of compromise...like your son is allowed to sue you the parent (not the 'surgeon') for circumcising him if he so feels it has had a negative impact upon his life...I could live with something like that I guess.
It isnt worth the trouble otherwise I suppose.

I am not sure Jews and Muslims would find that acceptable...no one really likes compromises it seems in reality.

But I do they work for me.

 

[J2hapydna]

Because it's a semi-irreversible medical procedure with no benefit! (In the majority of cases. Medical reasons are perfectly valid.)

Just because you do not see a benefit of belonging to Hebrew or Arabic speaking cultures does not mean it does not exist.

 

[Nadia Faiazova]

Hi! I agree with you. Circumcision not only should be banned, but should be considered as unimportant procedure. Why? Because it no longer brings anyone closer to God. Because apostle Paul was inspired to write ( at the beginning of the 1st century)-"Circumcision does not mean a thing, and uncircumcision means not a thing, but observance of God’s commandments does.”—1Corinthians 7:19.

 

[Levite]

Hi! I agree with you. Circumcision not only should be banned, but should be considered as unimportant procedure. Why? Because it no longer brings anyone closer to God. Because apostle Paul was inspired to write ( at the beginning of the 1st century)-"Circumcision does not mean a thing, and uncircumcision means not a thing, but observance of God’s commandments does.”—1Corinthians 7:19.

Which is why Christians shouldn't be obligated to circumcise. What you've cited means less than nothing to Jews and Muslims. By seeking to ban circumcision for all people, rather than simply opt not to do it to your own children, all you're doing is demonstrating contempt for Judaism and Islam, who do, in fact, believe that it is a sacred and holy experience.

Interesting.

Then there must be some kind of compromise...like your son is allowed to sue you the parent (not the 'surgeon') for circumcising him if he so feels it has had a negative impact upon his life...I could live with something like that I guess.
It isnt worth the trouble otherwise I suppose.

I am not sure Jews and Muslims would find that acceptable...no one really likes compromises it seems in reality.

But I do they work for me.

I don't know that making it liable for lawsuits is a good solution.

However, in my experience, the one or two guys I have heard of who objected to circumcision so much as to be irate at their own parents' choice to circumcise them resulted in huge family quarrels where nobody ever spoke to each other again. That sort of seems like punishment enough, to me.

And I have certainly known Jews who apostasized and began to practice other religions, or became atheist crusaders, and they all seemed able to deal with the fact that their Jewish parents circumcised them-- most of them don't seem to have thought twice about it.

So, considering that most Jewish men-- whether observant or heretical-- don't have any problem being circumcised, maybe the one or two who do could just get over it. I mean, unless there is a cultural ritual and spiritual meaning to circumcision, it just isn't a big deal. I don't mean to be insulting, I really don't, but...it's not. Parents make all kinds of choices for their kids, all the time, which are the kind of choices that, in adults, we would presume required informed consent. This choice doesn't impair the proper functioning of the body. It is the genital equivalent of an appendectomy, or at worst, tonsillectomy.

And to be honest, considering how many grave problems there are in the world, and so many real dangers to people-- including children of both genders-- from oppressive regimes, landmines, and child soldiery to legitimate child abuse, pedophiles, and bullying...I'm sorry, but circumcision doesn't seem to me like it should even make the list of things we ought to make an effort to confront or combat.

 

[Bismillah]

From the sources penguin cited the risk is little to none with most cases requiring a simple treatment to the problem.

So call me back when parents are chastised and food is regulated so that the decisions they make doesn't affect whether or not they'll grow up to be obese.

Yeah circumcision is the real problem here...

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

And to be honest, considering how many grave problems there are in the world, and so many real dangers to people-- including children of both genders-- from oppressive regimes, landmines, and child soldiery to legitimate child abuse, pedophiles, and bullying...I'm sorry, but circumcision doesn't seem to me like it should even make the list of things we ought to make an effort to confront or combat.

That doesnt matter to me and I have to say that is a dishonest argument...we could be apathetic about all & everything that YOU subjectively percieve to be of little import.

Circumcision remains three things...in my subjective understanding.

A denial of personal choice.
Unnecessary for any health reasons (In normal circumstances).
Mutilation.

I have stated I would be willing to live with a compromise such as the one I mentioned which as I predicted no one really liked much.
But if you cannot compromise or live with a compromise then I see that I have no choice but revert to my original position of outright ban...unless someone can think of a better compromise.

 

[YmirGF]

Yeah circumcision is the real problem here...

Well, at least we can agree on some topics, Abibi. Maybe there is some, however slight, hope, after all.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Parents make all kinds of choices for their kids, all the time, which are the kind of choices that, in adults, we would presume required informed consent.

That is a choice a parent should not be allowed to make....not without the possibility of litigation from the victim/plaintiff later...at least.

For the three reasons I have stated.