College Orders Student to Alter Religious Views on Homosexuality, Or Be Dismissed

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Because it is a public institution, and they cannot discriminate on grounds of religion.

But affording a special status to religious beliefs because of their religious nature would be discimination on grounds of religion.

If she got what she wanted, then there would be one standard for students with particular religious beliefs and another standard for everybody else. That would be religious discrimination.

Because if they can't show that it causes a serious problem, then it is just discrimination against a religion.
Well, the article said she showed no lack of understanding of the course material, that her issues were not academic in nature, but a question of certain beliefs which she had espoused.

In this case, the two categories overlap. Her beliefs have a direct bearing on (and are in direct conflict with) the academic content of her program.

Also, if the course material is, with out need, discriminatory against religion it is illegal.

I don't agree with your assessment. I think that "need" is too high a bar. IMO, any course material or requirement should be allowed if it's reasonsbly justifiable.

I agree that schools shouldn't place requirements in their courses for the sole reason of discriminating against particular religions, but they also don't have to bend over backward to allow for religious beliefs that are in conflict with the subject matter. They call it "reasonable accommodation" for a reason; it's not necessary to go to unreasonable lengths to accommodate someone's religious beliefs.

I don't think that schools should have to demonstrate that their way of doing things is the one and only way in order to win out in a conflict between school requirements and religious beliefs. Instead, all I think is necessary is that the school demonstrate that their way of doing things is a good way... even if it's one of many possibilities.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The school is in the wrong and is perfoming a clear discrimination against a student with Christian beliefs. The school claims it is following the counseling code of ethics but that is only a defense subterfuge since the code of ethics never requires a person to believe in homoseuality only to refrain from discriminating against such a person.

The student has likely shown her own discrimination towards gays and trans. And guess what? You can't do that as a counselor. She can be against sexual orientation and gender identity issues all she wants. But since we know about her views, it's very likely she has made a scene out of it which makes her unfit to be a counselor.

The reality is that without Jesus a person is already mentally and emotionally ill. The people using the hammer are the ones who don't recognize that fact.

Nice to know. That I am apparently very ill because I will not bow to or worship your god.

Does the school announce in their course description that Christian views are not welcome. If they don't then they are either discriminating or false advertising.

The student is the one who is in the wrong. When you are wanting to be a councilor, a good and credible one, you can't let your own prejudices come before your work. And with her wanting to be a high school councilor, she will be working with gay and transgender students. She isn't living up to school and ACA standards, so they are dismissing her. I'm going to probably be working with people like you, but that doesn't mean I'm going to try to convert them, tell them they are wrong, or not take them as a patient. That is just basic stuff you learn very early in a psychology and social worker program.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Seems to me that she believes that homosexuality is a negative lifestyle choice using only her religious beliefs to support it.
Add to this the fact that she advertises that she believes as such...

I wish I could find the response to the statement of claim from ASU. I've looked over the one from Jennifer Keeting, and it hints at things that trouble me. For instance, at one point, it mentions in an offhand way that "conversion therapy" came up in a meeting between her and staff. I'd really like to know the context of that and the reasons why it was brought up.

A good thing to keep in mind in all this is that the Fox News story seems to be mainly based on the statement of claim from the plaintiff. From what I can gather from a quick Googling, the university's response, apart from a few generic statements about general policies, is that they don't comment on ongoing litigation or on issues surrounding specific students.

 

[idea]

In the just completed case, the graduate was in the active counseling stage of her program, where she worked in the University counseling office as a counselor. A student came in suffering from depression (and might have been suicidal, it was implied in the post but I didn't see it in the actual article), and because that student had previously been counseled on a relationship issue (homosexual relationship) the graduate REFUSED to work with the depressed student, simply because he was gay. Because treating him for depression would have "affirmed" his gay lifestyle or some such nonsense.

Looks like the previous councilor didn't do a good job… the graduate should have worked with them. Her different religious views / counciling ideas might have helped the poor guy (unlike the other councilor).

 

[ChristineES]

When I first the story, (my husband watches Fox constantly) my first thought was "she needs to find another school". Secular schools are going to have secular laws and codes. I am a Christian saying this.

 

[Sunstone]

Link



So, what do we think? Does the school have the right to take this action? Are they wrong for trying to expel her from the program?

We live in a age where an increasing number of people feel they have a right to believe any crap they want to believe regardless of its truth value. That is, they do not feel they are under any obligation to anyone or anything -- themselves, god, or their fellow humans -- to make a good faith effort at getting at the truth of a matter. "If it feels good, believe it to be true." This selfish, narcissistic attitude is destructive of both the individual and society and rotten to its core.

I fail to see why a public university should be forced to award a degree to such loathsome people.

 

[justbehappy]

Link



So, what do we think? Does the school have the right to take this action? Are they wrong for trying to expel her from the program?

It's not her belief her that's the issue to me - it's whether or not she would discriminate against the students. I wouldn't want to go to a counselor, telling her my feelings, and have her tell me that my actions are wrong.
I would have to know more about the case, though, to determine whether they are really wanting to expell her for her beliefs or her discriminaton. It is kind of hard to decipher from just this info.

 

[justbehappy]

I guess we have to violate someone's rights for another person's. I guess I knew someday it would come to that.

Counselors are not supposed show their bias. If she cannot except that then she must change her profession. Her job is to help students, not discriminate against their beliefs.

 

[ChristineES]

Counselors are not supposed show their bias. If she cannot except that then she must change her profession. Her job is to help students, not discriminate against their beliefs.

What I meant is that she has rights and so do the students.
And she may not show her bias to the people she counsels, if she did she would be out of line.
And I believe the school should not change the curriculum just to suit her needs, as I already said. She is only one person, after all. I am sure other Christians have finished the program.

 

[justbehappy]

What I meant is that she has rights and so do the students.
And she may not show her bias to the people she counsels, if she did she would be out of line.
And I believe the school should not change the curriculum just to suit her needs, as I already said. She is only one person, after all. I am sure other Christians have finished the program.

Well I believe, from what I read, is that the problem is she was very vocal about her beliefs in an unappropriate place. If she cannot keep her opinions to herself in the classroom, it is a good sign she would be bias towards students she's working with. If she wouldn't have been vocal to her teachers, they would have never known.

 

[idea]

Was this posted?

http://www.telladf.org/userdocs/KeetonComplaint.pdf

 

[ChristineES]

Was this posted?

http://www.telladf.org/userdocs/KeetonComplaint.pdf

Apparently not. This does shed some light on this story. I still don't know the whole story so I will refrain from any more comments on this subject.

 

[Scott C.]

Do I understand this correctly? The woman is being denied an education to become a school councilor because she has made it known that she believes homosexuality is a sin. If this is true, this is ridiculous. So are we going to not allow councilors who believe pre-marital sex is a sin? I would agree that as a councilor in a public school, it's not her place to advise students on her views or morality in regards to homosexual orientation or behavior. Why could she not be a good councilor without expressing her personal views on the subject to students?

 

[839311]

I think the strength of her convictions would be a factor. The article mentions that she has expressed her views both inside and outside of the classroom. I would like to know what those views are. I am guessing here, but the University probably does not do this regularly, which would suggest that she may have particularly strong views against homosexuals. If thats the case, then her views may act as a significant barrier for her to do her future job effectively. This isn't necessarily the case, though. She may get a counselling job at a Christian setting where her fundamental religious views are shared by the people she works with, and it may even be expected of her to treat her homosexual patients by trying to make them heterosexual. I think if the School has a legitimate and clear code regarding religious views on homosexuals, then that might be upheld by the courts. However, from my own studies of the legal system, a code or contract doesn't necessarily guarantee legal protection. One factor is whether it is reasonable, under all the circumstances of the case, to expect her to know her School's position on the matter. If it isn't, and the School only vaguely mentions it somewhere deep into its 50,000 page code (I dont know how long it is), which most students probably wouldn't read, then the School may lose the case. Another issue is that the U.S. is mostly Christian, so its likely that many students would be Christian. Many of her classmates could share her religious views. Should they expel these students as well, or is it only when they express those views? I personally don't agree with her views, but at the same time, I don't want to see her be expelled based on beliefs she may not have had much choice in shaping. Maybe her parents are both preachers, and had an overpowering influence on her belief system regarding homosexuality? Maybe if we were in her shoes, we would believe the same. If she can do her job as a counsellor, I think she should probably be allowed to finish her degree.

The University's rules and regulations regarding these issues should be clear, and it should be ensured that the students are aware of the rules and agree to them, before accepting them into the program.

 

[Duck]

I think the strength of her convictions would be a factor. The article mentions that she has expressed her views both inside and outside of the classroom. I would like to know what those views are. I am guessing here, but the University probably does not do this regularly, which would suggest that she may have particularly strong views against homosexuals. If thats the case, then her views may act as a significant barrier for her to do her future job effectively. This isn't necessarily the case, though. She may get a counselling job at a Christian setting where her fundamental religious views are shared by the people she works with, and it may even be expected of her to treat her homosexual patients by trying to make them heterosexual. I think if the School has a legitimate and clear code regarding religious views on homosexuals, then that might be upheld by the courts. However, from my own studies of the legal system, a code or contract doesn't necessarily guarantee legal protection. One factor is whether it is reasonable, under all the circumstances of the case, to expect her to know her School's position on the matter. If it isn't, and the School only vaguely mentions it somewhere deep into its 50,000 page code (I dont know how long it is), which most students probably wouldn't read, then the School may lose the case. Another issue is that the U.S. is mostly Christian, so its likely that many students would be Christian. Many of her classmates could share her religious views. Should they expel these students as well, or is it only when they express those views? I personally don't agree with her views, but at the same time, I don't want to see her be expelled based on beliefs she may not have had much choice in shaping. Maybe her parents are both preachers, and had an overpowering influence on her belief system regarding homosexuality? Maybe if we were in her shoes, we would believe the same. If she can do her job as a counsellor, I think she should probably be allowed to finish her degree.

The University's rules and regulations regarding these issues should be clear, and it should be ensured that the students are aware of the rules and agree to them, before accepting them into the program.

Some of what I have read in this case indicates that she feels (and has expressed both in and out of the classroom environment) that LGBT people suffer from 'identity disorder' and she is in favor of 'reparative' therapy for LGBT persons. Her views as indicated regarding Transgender people are even more primitive.

The program requires students to conform to the ACA (American Counselors Association) and APA code of ethics. Apparently her beliefs regarding treatment of LGBT people are such that her advisors feel she can't conform to those ethical standards (based on what she has written and expressed in and out of the classroom).

 

[Scott C.]

Some of what I have read in this case indicates that she feels (and has expressed both in and out of the classroom environment) that LGBT people suffer from 'identity disorder' and she is in favor of 'reparative' therapy for LGBT persons. Her views as indicated regarding Transgender people are even more primitive.

The program requires students to conform to the ACA (American Counselors Association) and APA code of ethics. Apparently her beliefs regarding treatment of LGBT people are such that her advisors feel she can't conform to those ethical standards (based on what she has written and expressed in and out of the classroom).

Her views are not primitive and to not allow her in, because someone thinks her views are primitive, amounts to unjustifed discrimination. I would agree that she should not be a councilor if she's going to tell gays that the reason they are depressed is because they are living a gay life style. This is not her place, whether she's right or not.

 

[Duck]

Her views are not primitive and to not allow her in, because someone thinks her views are primitive, amounts to unjustifed discrimination. I would agree that she should not be a councilor if she's going to tell gays that the reason they are depressed is because they are living a gay life style. This is not her place, whether she's right or not.

By the primitive comment I was refering specifically to what I have read her statements regarding Trans folk were, essentially, to boil it down my understanding of her views on Trans folk are you are born either male or female, deal with it. Which regarding what little I know about Gender Identity Disorder IS primitive. For a potential counselor to express views like this is unconscionable. Regardless of the reasons for her holding these views.

She is all ready in the program, but due to her expressed views particularly regarding LGBT people, she has remedial course work to complete or face expulsion. When she was presented with this remediation plan, she sued the school.

 

[Mister Emu]

After looking it over again... I may have been wrong...

I got focused, perhaps too much so, on her considering homosexuality a sin as a reason... That should not be an acceptable reason to dismiss her, it should not even be part of a reason.

However, I failed to consider her belief that homosexuality is a choice, which besides being wildly untrue, is an academic issue, and not a moral one.

 

[Magic Man]

Her views are not primitive and to not allow her in, because someone thinks her views are primitive, amounts to unjustifed discrimination. I would agree that she should not be a councilor if she's going to tell gays that the reason they are depressed is because they are living a gay life style. This is not her place, whether she's right or not.

Her views are primitive, but that's not really the problem. You agree that she should not be a councellor if she's going to tell gay students that the reason they are depressed is because they are living a gay lifestyle. Therefore you agree that from the information we have it seems the school is justified in expelling her from the program, if she refuses to abide by their rules.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Doing a counselling degree myself one of the big ideas they teach is a concept called "unconditional positive regard"

This means accepting the person for who they are without judgement.

Can this person have this regard for a homosexual if she has this view. What kind of university would give formal qualifications to someone with that kind of bias.

I believe they have the right and the moral duty to make her attend these sessions.