Could have Islam exist without Judaism & Christianity?

[gnostic]

So wait.. you have nothing more to say so you pick out text..... :sleep:

Are you always this rude?

I am not always at my computer. And I am about to go to bed. So forgive me, if I don't stay up all night to await for your words.

Where is your proof that its ''Exaggerated'' and isn't the real message where the biblical stories have gone wrong...

The story of Solomon.

In the Hebrew version, Solomon prayed to God for WISDOM, so that he could rule "wisely".

In the Islamic version, Solomon could talk to animals - command army of ants and birds, and even jinns. Not only that, he could control winds.

16. And Solomon was David's heir.
He said: "O ye people!
We have been taught the speech"
Of Birds, and on us
Has been bestowed (a little)
Of all things: this is
Indeed Grace manifest (from God.)"


17. And before Solomon were marshalled
His hosts,—of Jinns and men
And birds, and they were all
Kept in order and ranks.


18. At length, when they came
To a (lowly) valley of ants,
One of the ants said:
"O ye ants, get into
Your habitations, lest Solomon
And his hosts crush you
(Under foot) without knowing it."

12. And to Solomon (We
Made) the Wind (obedient):
Its early morning (stride)
Was a month's (journey),
And its evening (stride)
Was a month's (journey);
And We made a Font
Of molten brass to flow
For him; and there were
Jinns that worked in front
Of him, by the leave
Of his Lord, and if any
Of them turned aside
From Our command, We
Made him taste
Of the Penalty
Of the Blazing Fire.

Nothing in the Biblical version say that Solomon could do such things. The Islamic version sounds more like fable or fairytale. A lot harder to believe than the biblical version.

Hence, exaggeration!

But of course, there are cases, where the Qur'anic version is more believable than the biblical version. One example is Noah's Flood. In Genesis it was global flood where even the highest mountains in the world was covered with water. The Islamic version implied a more acceptable regional flood.

Of course, if we were to believe it is regional flood, and Noah was forewarned about the Flood 100 years earlier, like it say in the Bible (Noah was warned at 500, and the flood arrived when he was 600), then why would Islamic version have Noah built an ark, when he could have easily migrated to higher region, not affected by the flood. HECK! In 1 or 2 years, you can travel a great distance, even at walking pace, easily flood region. The whole Ark thing is pretty pointless in regional flood, especially if you're supposed to a prophet.

 

[gnostic]

First of all where is the proof they didn't like i said Muslims do not belief that the Torah or Bible are authentic, heck most atheist and gnostic's do not even belief this anyway this is a different subject.

If the definition of Islam means submission to god wouldn't they call it Islam, didn't Moses or Jesus (peace be upon them) submit themselves to god... They Did...

Nor did the 50 or more prophets in the bible ever called the religion Christianity funny right?..

Look, I am not the one who brought up the subject that Moses didn't name his religion Judaism or Jesus didn't name his, Christianity. You did. You are the one who sprout the importance in the name of the religion.

How many times did the actual word "Islam" were used in the Qur'an? (I don't know.)

Allah supposedly said "Islam", a number of times, but in the Bible, how many time the actual word "Islam" being used by anyone, including God? NIL

Since you brought it up, I find it funny that no where in the Bible, did Moses or Jesus...OR GOD calling their religion ISLAM in the bible.

Yes, I know Islam means "submission", but did it say anywhere in the bible that the religion was called "submission" or ISLAM?

:no:

 

[Caladan]

Nope the Quran never says go to the Injeel of Esha(p) because the injeel was a direct revelation to esha(p) we don't even know if it was a book and it certain weren't Gospel(S).
The Quran also never refers muslims to read the Torah because its said that the Torah has been altered.

It doesn't discuss them because its one being that is talking directly but it does describe Jewish Prophets yes.

But we do belief that some of the word God still contains in the Torah and ''Gospels''

This doesn't really answer my question. I am not a Christian, but if I want the best 'traditional' resource about Jesus, his life, what he did or said. I don't turn to the Islamic context, I turn to the New Testament, the gospels, what you call Injeel. Likewise, all these people who take inspiration from the sayings of Jesus, when they want to read the Sermon on the Mount, they don't turn to Islamic sources, they turn to the New Testament.

For example the bible describes David(p) as a guy who committed adultery and who killed 200 philistines just to get permission of a king to have adultery, in the Quran he is described as a respectable messenger without ever doing these things, and many more prophets and messengers are so demonized in the bible that i can never accept these harmful things said about them and then to follow them. The Quran fixes the errors the bible has and is the real revelation without errors

If this is what you believe, I can tell you have never really gotten into the Biblical narrative. The fact that even the Kings of Israel sinned is no indication of disrespect, its an indication of the honesty of those who write the narrative. Furthermore the narrative is in the Bible in the most elaborative and 'in-context' way, not in the Islamic sources. But in the Hebrew sources.
Furthermore, since you brought it up. Did not even the earlier Caliphs, the so called Rashidun did terrible things, and commited terrible atrocities? their progeny went as far as massacring what was left of the prophet's family and humiliated them in public in Kufa.
By the same tokken, there is no shame when the Bible tells us of the wrongs some of our most celebrated men commited. It's what makes them human.

 

[YmirGF]

Well, actually I think a lot of biblical figures don't exist at all. You're forgetting I am not a Christian or Jew.

So I find that all Abrahamic faiths - including the big 3 - require unreasonable faith on scriptures from us.

There are several instances where the Qur'an exaggerate the biblical stories even more, so I find it completely unreasonable to accept your Islamic version at face value or literally.

In retrospect, Storyteller, had Christianity and Judaism not existed, it is unlikely that the Qur'an we have today would exist, as great swaths of it would have made little sense to the listeners of the day. It is reasonable, in this hypothetical situation to assume that "god" may well have deemed Muhammad's "revelation" still necessary, but if that is the case, it would likely have included purely Arabic themes that would have been relevant to the masses who originally listened to it. So, though the Qur'an may still have been "brought down", it's form would have, necessarily, been radically different.

Likewise, without Christianity or Judaism in its path, it is also reasonable to assume that Zoroastrianism would have held greater sway with the masses and over a larger area. If that is the case, and again, this is a hypothetical analysis, Islam would have focused more on Polytheism and Zoroastrianism, correcting the perceived wrongs of each. In essence, Islam may well have emerged, IF it had been able to get off the ground, of course. But, in doing so, it may well have drawn the attention of the Romans who, though in decline, may have felt it necessary to address what it saw as an upstart on fringes of its south-eastern provinces. Who knows, it may have put some life back into the fading Roman empire, to band together, one last time, because what we know of as the Holy Roman Empire, based around Christianity would not have arisen.

 

[loverOfTruth]

In retrospect, Storyteller, had Christianity and Judaism not existed, it is unlikely that the Qur'an we have today would exist, as great swaths of it would have made little sense to the listeners of the day. It is reasonable, in this hypothetical situation to assume that "god" may well have deemed Muhammad's "revelation" still necessary, but if that is the case, it would likely have included purely Arabic themes that would have been relevant to the masses who originally listened to it. So, though the Qur'an may still have been "brought down", it's form would have, necessarily, been radically different.

Likewise, without Christianity or Judaism in its path, it is also reasonable to assume that Zoroastrianism would have held greater sway with the masses and over a larger area. If that is the case, and again, this is a hypothetical analysis, Islam would have focused more on Polytheism and Zoroastrianism, correcting the perceived wrongs of each. In essence, Islam may well have emerged, IF it had been able to get off the ground, of course. But, in doing so, it may well have drawn the attention of the Romans who, though in decline, may have felt it necessary to address what it saw as an upstart on fringes of its south-eastern provinces. Who knows, it may have put some life back into the fading Roman empire, to band together, one last time, because what we know of as the Holy Roman Empire, based around Christianity would not have arisen.

You still haven't answered my question : How did the Jews know who Moses was talking about without any prior knowledge of those prophets?

 

[arthra]

Look, I am not the one who brought up the subject that Moses didn't name his religion Judaism or Jesus didn't name his, Christianity. You did. You are the one who sprout the importance in the name of the religion.

How many times did the actual word "Islam" were used in the Qur'an? (I don't know.)

Allah supposedly said "Islam", a number of times, but in the Bible, how many time the actual word "Islam" being used by anyone, including God? NIL

Since you brought it up, I find it funny that no where in the Bible, did Moses or Jesus...OR GOD calling their religion ISLAM in the bible.

Yes, I know Islam means "submission", but did it say anywhere in the bible that the religion was called "submission" or ISLAM?

:no:

The misunderstanding I think is that all the Prophets submitted Themselves to God.. It does not refer to a particular religion...

9:9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him; 9:10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.

(King James Bible, Daniel)


95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.

(King James Bible, Psalms)


4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

(King James Bible, James)

 

[beerisit]

You still haven't answered my question : How did the Jews know who Moses was talking about without any prior knowledge of those prophets?

Oral history is the answer. Would that be like the oral history of the Qu'ran do you thinK?

 

[beerisit]

As a hypothetical, remove all human knowledge of Judaism, Christianity and all knowledge of the people and events portrayed in those religions. Now have Muhammad reveal the Qu'ran as is, does the Qu'ran make any sense? Or have the Qu'ran revealed without any reference to those people or events, does the Qu'ran make any sense?

I thought I'd like an answer to this.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Oral history is the answer. Would that be like the oral history of the Qu'ran do you thinK?

Can you give any academic references/evidences for your claim?

Moreover, not even the bibles were preserved orally and even in writing to the extent the Quran was word for word - so what makes you think that events prior to OT were. Ofcourse, evidences are welcome.

 

[beerisit]

Can you give any academic references/evidences for your claim?

Moreover, not even the bibles were preserved orally and even in writing to the extent the Quran was word for word - so what makes you think that events prior to OT were. Ofcourse, evidences are welcome.

Can you give any sort of a similar evidence for your belief that Adam was a prophet and that he PREACHED the belief in Islam? What a silly thing to say

 

[beerisit]

Can you give any academic references/evidences for your claim?

Moreover, not even the bibles were preserved orally and even in writing to the extent the Quran was word for word - so what makes you think that events prior to OT were. Ofcourse, evidences are welcome.

I hope you realize that the Torah is and was an oral tradition before "moses" wrote it. So tell me how believable would the passages of the Qu'ran regarding Adam and Abraham and moses et al be without the Torah?

 

[loverOfTruth]

Can you give any sort of a similar evidence for your belief that Adam was a prophet and that he PREACHED the belief in Islam? What a silly thing to say

This is so funny. If you have read the earlier posts, Caldan is the one who brought up 'academic references' not me. Yet I have not seen an iota of evidences let alone 'academic references ' regarding any claims against the possibility of Islam's existence without Judaism and Christianity. I said it way back that God did it for the Jews, then the Christians and He could do it without any problem whatsoever for the Muslims. If you think this is outrageous then all of your claims regarding prior oral history before Moses is as outrageous without evidence.

 

[beerisit]

This is so funny. If you have read the earlier posts, Caldan is the one who brought up 'academic references' not me. Yet I have not seen an iota of evidences let alone 'academic references ' regarding any claims against the possibility of Islam's existence without Judaism and Christianity. I said it way back that God did it for the Jews, then the Christians and He could do it without any problem whatsoever for the Muslims. If you think this is outrageous then all of your claims regarding prior oral history before Moses is as outrageous without evidence.

Would you like to answer my questions?

 

[YmirGF]

This is so funny. If you have read the earlier posts, Caldan is the one who brought up 'academic references' not me. Yet I have not seen an iota of evidences let alone 'academic references ' regarding any claims against the possibility of Islam's existence without Judaism and Christianity. I said it way back that God did it for the Jews, then the Christians and He could do it without any problem whatsoever for the Muslims. If you think this is outrageous then all of your claims regarding prior oral history before Moses is as outrageous without evidence.

What part of "hypothetical" do you not get?

 

[loverOfTruth]

What part of "hypothetical" do you not get?

The part that talks about double standard.

 

[beerisit]

The part that talks about double standard.

So scared.............sorry.............but can you answer my questions. If not just say so and we will know.

 

[YmirGF]

The part that talks about double standard.

I'd say that it is more likely a case of you being unable to work withing established guidelines and I don't mean that as an attack, but rather, simply as an observation.

It might make for an interesting thread to explore your nuanced view of the double-standards you perceive.

 

[loverOfTruth]

So scared.............sorry.............but can you answer my questions. If not just say so and we will know.

Which question?

 

[beerisit]

Which question?

The ones you've been avoiding since I asked them.

 

[loverOfTruth]

The ones you've been avoiding since I asked them.

Could you ask again? I dont know what you are talking about. I thought i answere already.