Could have Islam exist without Judaism & Christianity?

[Godobeyer]

The ones you've been avoiding since I asked them.

the question ?
you mean this :
what the message that deliver from God to Adam ?,


i answsered it by the verses of Quran .

 

[loverOfTruth]

I hope you realize that the Torah is and was an oral tradition before "moses" wrote it. So tell me how believable would the passages of the Qu'ran regarding Adam and Abraham and moses et al be without the Torah?

Ok, I'll just assume that this is your question.

So now let's imagine that everything before Moses(pbuh) came to this world still exists as is (that is if I take the historical oral traditions to be true without evidence) and then we just wipe of everything after it until Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) showed up - I guess that is the hypothesis.

So there is no reason to assume that those same Oral historical traditions regarding Adam, Noah, Abraham (if they existed before Moses) wouldn't continue to be passed down via the same method all the way to the time of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). So they would be as believable to the people of Muhammad's time as they were in Moses' time.

That explanation is assuming you believe those scriptures came about from historical information in the past - which I don't believe. I believe that God sent revelation to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. So even in this explanation no reason to believe that God couldn't do it for Muhammad if He did it for Moses and Jesus.

Regarding quran's claim about one Religion : "...Mankind was [of] one religion [before their deviation]; then Allah sent the prophets as bringers of good tidings and warners and sent down with them the Scripture in truth to judge between the people concerning that in which they differed..." (Al Qur'an 2:113)

 

[beerisit]

Ok, I'll just assume that this is your question.

So now let's imagine that everything before Moses(pbuh) came to this world still exists as is (that is if I take the historical oral traditions to be true without evidence) and then we just wipe of everything after it until Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) showed up - I guess that is the hypothesis.

So there is no reason to assume that those same Oral historical traditions regarding Adam, Noah, Abraham (if they existed before Moses) wouldn't continue to be passed down via the same method all the way to the time of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). So they would be as believable to the people of Muhammad's time as they were in Moses' time.

That explanation is assuming you believe those scriptures came about from historical information in the past - which I don't believe. I believe that God sent revelation to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. So even in this explanation no reason to believe that God couldn't do it for Muhammad if He did it for Moses and Jesus.

Regarding quran's claim about one Religion : "...Mankind was [of] one religion [before their deviation]; then Allah sent the prophets as bringers of good tidings and warners and sent down with them the Scripture in truth to judge between the people concerning that in which they differed..." (Al Qur'an 2:113)

No. These are the questions>
As a hypothetical, remove all human knowledge of Judaism, Christianity and all knowledge of the people and events portrayed in those religions. Now have Muhammad reveal the Qu'ran as is, does the Qu'ran make any sense? Or have the Qu'ran revealed without any reference to those people or events, does the Qu'ran make any sense?

Godobeyer, I didn't ask about the message god delivered to Adam, I asked what message Adam delivered to mankind.

You also haven't addressed the question of why none of the other thousands of prophet's lives, experiences or teachings are recounted in the Qu'ran as are those of the OT and NT. Why doesn't the Qu'ran recount doctrine from Shinto or Buddhism or any other religion that Allah sent messengers to?

 

[Godobeyer]

Godobeyer, I didn't ask about the message god delivered to Adam, I asked what message Adam delivered to mankind.

to his small family maybe , because he was the first prophet ,

he absolutly deliver to his family the message of God .
it's the same message as all the prophets and messangers
God is one , and great and the only creator, avoid the evid and don't follow the Satan ...;etc

anyway there is not a sign of holybook in the Quran sent to Adam , and i don't think that he need too ,
and Noah comes after him and Abraham too (pbut)

accautly i don't know if Noah and Abraham (pbuh) had holybook from God but they were prophets . maybe my brothers knows better than me .

 

[beerisit]

to his small family maybe , because he was the first prophet ,

he absolutly deliver to his family the message of God .
it's the same message as all the prophets and messangers
God is one , and great and the only creator, avoid the evid and don't follow the Satan ...;etc

anyway there is not a sign of holybook in the Quran sent to Adam , and i don't think that he need too ,
and Noah comes after him and Abraham too (pbut)

accautly i don't know if Noah and Abraham (pbuh) had holybook from God but they were prophets . maybe my brothers knows better than me .

So you don't have any record of Adam being a prophet, you just believe he must have been. I'm sorry but that shouldn't convince anyone.

This is what I think Adam would have preached, therefore Adam was a prophet. Are you serious?

Are you talking about a holybook given to them by God just like he gave to Jesus?

 

[Godobeyer]

You also haven't addressed the question of why none of the other thousands of prophet's lives, experiences or teachings are recounted in the Qu'ran as are those of the OT and NT. Why doesn't the Qu'ran recount doctrine from Shinto or Buddhism or any other religion that Allah sent messengers to?

edited
accuatly i don't know if God sent them prophets or messagers or not (to the other nation as Chiness , indian ...etc ), to admint them.
then if we suppse that it's sent , i would sure that it's re-edit by humans as exactly happened to christainity and judiasm .

becuase they pray to Idols , that we don't believe in them .

note that :
pre-Islam Arabs were worshiping the Idols .

 

[Godobeyer]

So you don't have any record of Adam being a prophet, you just believe he must have been. I'm sorry but that shouldn't convince anyone.

God did not called Adam (pbuh) prophet , but he treat him as prophet and prefered him as prefered Abraham , what is that mean ?

we the muslims considere him prophet, i don't know if the jews and christians believe in the same .

This is what I think Adam would have preached, therefore Adam was a prophet. Are you serious?

surely he was preached to his family .

Are you talking about a holybook given to them by God just like he gave to Jesus?

Yes , for me , i don't know if God sent holybook to Adam or Abraham or Noah (pbut) .

 

[beerisit]

accuatly i don't know if God sent them prophets or messagers or not , to admint them.
then if we suppse that it's sent , i would sure that it's re-edit by humans as exactly happened to christainity and judiasm .

becuase they pray to Idols , that we don't believe in them .

note that :
pre-Islam Arabs were worshiping the Idols .

That doesn't answer the question. God sent messengers to every race on earth according to Islam, teaching the same message to all. Is this true?
If so why are only the prophets of Judaism and Christianity mentioned in the Qu'ran? Why not any of the other thousands of prophets?
The re-edit comes from the Qu'ran? Is that what your saying?

 

[beerisit]

God did not called Adam (pbuh) prophet , but he treat him as prophet and prefered him as prefered Abraham , what is that mean ?

But Islam calls him a prophet, if God doesn't call him a prophet then why does Islam? If he's not?

we the muslims considere him prophet, i don't know if the jews and christians believe in the same .

Exactly, Muslims consider him a prophet without any cause. Nowhere in any scripture does Adam give any message. So that makes him a prophet without a message. Unless it's the message that Islam tries to assign to him.

surely he was preached to his family .

Yes , for me , i don't know if God sent holybook to Adam or Abraham or Noah (pbut) .

Did God send a holy book to Jesus like he did to Muhammad?

 

[Godobeyer]

That doesn't answer the question. God sent messengers to every race on earth according to Islam, teaching the same message to all. Is this true?

i make a search about this issue , i found that it's true God sent prophet and messangers to all the nations , but God told us just some of them .

40-78
Verily We sent messengers before thee, among them those of whom We have told thee, and some of whom We have not told thee; and it was not given to any messenger that he should bring a portent save by Allah's leave, but when Allah's commandment cometh (the cause) is judged aright, and the followers of vanity will then be lost.

If so why are only the prophets of Judaism and Christianity mentioned in the Qu'ran? Why not any of the other thousands of prophets?

for my opinion
Because the Jews were the prefered nation for God in that time , then
because they keeping edited His messages , He promiss them that he will provoke them by other nation (fool nation ) (in the bible this promiss)

then God sent the correct message to the muslims , it's was globale message not ethniy (jewish)

The re-edit comes from the Qu'ran? Is that what your saying?

no, we the muslims believe that the Bible and Torah were edited by humans .

5-11
And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly.

 

[Godobeyer]

But Islam calls him a prophet, if God doesn't call him a prophet then why does Islam? If he's not?

Exactly, Muslims consider him a prophet without any cause. Nowhere in any scripture does Adam give any message. So that makes him a prophet without a message. Unless it's the message that Islam tries to assign to him.

God told us that he prefered him as the prophets , that's mean he is prophet .

the message that i know , it's don't follow the Satan.

Did God send a holy book to Jesus like he did to Muhammad?

yes , it's called Gospel (injil in arabic ) , the proof that the Gospel edited , 1- his message (context) is different then the OT , 2- and there were hunderds fake Gospels , the Church choice (admint ) only four of them .

 

[beerisit]

i make a search about this issue , i found that it's true God sent prophet and messangers to all the nations , but God told us just some of them .

40-78
Verily We sent messengers before thee, among them those of whom We have told thee, and some of whom We have not told thee; and it was not given to any messenger that he should bring a portent save by Allah's leave, but when Allah's commandment cometh (the cause) is judged aright, and the followers of vanity will then be lost.






for my opinion
Because the Jews were the prefered nation for God in that time , then
because they keeping edited His messages , He promiss them that he will provoke them by other nation (fool nation ) (in the bible this promiss)

then God sent the correct message to the muslims , it's was globale message not ethniy (jewish)




no, we the muslims believe that the Bible and Torah were edited by humans .

5-11
And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts. They change words from their context and forget a part of that whereof they were admonished. Thou wilt not cease to discover treachery from all save a few of them. But bear with them and pardon them. Lo! Allah loveth the kindly.

The message of the Jews had been in existence for 4000yrs before Muhammad, perhaps you would be so kind as to tell everyone when it was EDITED?

 

[beerisit]

God told us that he prefered him as the prophets , that's mean he is prophet .

the message that i know , it's don't follow the Satan.



yes , it's called Gospel (injil in arabic ) , the proof that the Gospel edited , 1- his message (context) is different then the OT , 2- and there were hunderds fake Gospels , the Church choice (admint ) only four of them .

You are aware that Jesus had nothing to do with the writing of the gospels? So God could not have sent the gospels to Jesus. You do understand that?
God gave the gospel to Jesus, but gave hundreds of false gospels as well. Who did he give the fake ones to?
Where is it written that Adam said don't follow satan?

You still haven't explained why there are only stories of prophets in Judaism and Christianity when there were thousands (125,000 I'm led to believe) of other prophets. Why didn't God relate stories of those others? Surely all monotheistic religions are Islam? Why didn't he berate the believers in the rainbow serpent?

 

[loverOfTruth]

No. These are the questions>
As a hypothetical, remove all human knowledge of Judaism, Christianity and all knowledge of the people and events portrayed in those religions. Now have Muhammad reveal the Qu'ran as is, does the Qu'ran make any sense? Or have the Qu'ran revealed without any reference to those people or events, does the Qu'ran make any sense?

Godobeyer, I didn't ask about the message god delivered to Adam, I asked what message Adam delivered to mankind.

You also haven't addressed the question of why none of the other thousands of prophet's lives, experiences or teachings are recounted in the Qu'ran as are those of the OT and NT. Why doesn't the Qu'ran recount doctrine from Shinto or Buddhism or any other religion that Allah sent messengers to?

First of all, if Judaism and Christianity didn't exist - there wont be any mention of Moses and Jesus in the Quran. So it would be Quran - Moses - Jesus - people of the book. So it would make perfect sense. Now I already answered how people of Muhammad's time would believe stories regarding Adam, Noah, Abraham - just like the Jews did (wether you believe in the oral history background explanation or revelation).

 

[beerisit]

First of all, if Judaism and Christianity didn't exist - there wont be any mention of Moses and Jesus in the Quran. So it would be Quran - Moses - Jesus - people of the book. So it would make perfect sense. Now I already answered how people of Muhammad's time would believe stories regarding Adam, Noah, Abraham - just like the Jews did (wether you believe in the oral history background explanation or revelation).

No you are suggesting that without 4000yrs of accepted history (Jews) that Muhammad could just bring these characters into existence in his revelations and people would believe him. I don't think so.

 

[Godobeyer]

No you are suggesting that without 4000yrs of accepted history (Jews) that Muhammad could just bring these characters into existence in his revelations and people would believe him. I don't think so.

ok how you explain that God sent many many messangers and prophets to the jews ? not only one or at least two ?

let me , make as exemple :
if you are a mananger of company , that you sent him many many messages contain advises and orders to a worker that you choice to work with him , and everytime he did not respect your messages and your orders (and more than that he edit it as mock action) , and you tries everything you can , but it's stay the same everytime in every message (he did not change )

of course you will fire him and you will find another better to care about the rules and obey your orders .

 

[beerisit]

ok how you explain that God sent many many messangers and prophets to the jews ? not only one or at least two ?

let me , make as exemple :
if you are a mananger of company , that you sent him many many messages contain advises and orders to a worker that you choice to work with him , and everytime he did not respect your messages and your orders (and more than that he edit it as mock action) , and you tries everything you can , but it's stay the same everytime in every message (he did not change )

of course you will fire him and you will find another better to care about the rules and obey your orders .

Do you honestly believe that God is the equivalent of a company manager? If not then what is the point of your story? Why would God allow his message to be corrupted in the first place?
It is one of the tenets of your religion that God will not allow his message to be changed, why do you think he allowed it in the past? If God doesn't want something changed, then how can it be changed?

 

[outhouse]

Much of Islam are based on 2 different religions: Judaism and Christianity.

So could Islam exist without Judaism and Christianity?

The scriptures that narrated the lives of Adam to Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, and to the kings, the survivors of the Exile in Babylon to the construction of the Second Temple (in the Tanakh) and the lives of Jesus and Paul.

So without Abraham and Ishmael, there would be no Muhammad.

No

Nope

 

[loverOfTruth]

No you are suggesting that without 4000yrs of accepted history (Jews) that Muhammad could just bring these characters into existence in his revelations and people would believe him. I don't think so.

If history is your main concern, why are you assuming that history prior to Moses would have been lost/not continued through to Prophet Muhammad's time through mankind via other means other than the Bible?

 

[beerisit]

If history is your main concern, why are you assuming that history prior to Moses would have been lost/not continued through to Prophet Muhammad's time through mankind via other means other than the Bible?

The hypothetical explains that. Or didn't you read it?