Could Nothingness Be Another Dimension In And Of Itself?

[Straw Dog]

Imagination certainly has a role, the problem is when people confuse it with reality, which leads to delusion.

Would you agree then that reality is mostly independent from what we happen to think about it?

Is there a reality of objects being rendered through our sensory-perception into an appearance of forms?

 

[YmirGF]

Hmm... Yes, maybe that is what most of us are doing most of the time.

Make-believe can be a lot of fun though. Imagination is often underrated.

I agree. Imagination is far more powerful than I think the average human animal suspects.

That hit me while I was writing the first part of my autobiography several years ago. What I was writing was so "out there" you got a contact high just reading the material. (It's far richer than anything presented in this thread, for example.) For my own mental stability I had to treat the material at "arms length" and wrote from my decades old meticulous notebooks... often verbatim. What I was somewhat bemused by was how, at the very least, this was all the product of some pretty artistic mental footwork. I deeply appreciated that it could indeed just be all a product of my imagination. Days later, I was having dinner when it hit me, "But what if I'm right? What if this isn't my imagination?"

I guess my point is that it is incredibly enticing to get carried away with your own thinking, especially when you have rather profound experiences that defy description on which that thinking is based. The thing to remember is that the map is NEVER the territory. This should be repeated on a daily basis lest we let our imaginations carry us into the land of make-believe.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Is there a reality of objects being rendered through our sensory-perception into an appearance of forms?

I think we fabricate an image in our mind based on input via our senses, which means that experience is inherently subjective because it depends on our state of mind at any one time. So I think that expressions like "Ultimate Reality" are nonsensical. I think that the more beliefs people have, the less clearly they are able to process the information coming in through the senses. Beliefs are like coloured glasses, they distort perception.

 

[Straw Dog]

I agree. Imagination is far more powerful than I think the average human animal suspects.

That hit me while I was writing the first part of my autobiography several years ago. What I was writing was so "out there" you got a contact high just reading the material. (It's far richer than anything presented in this thread, for example.) For my own mental stability I had to treat the material at "arms length" and wrote from my decades old meticulous notebooks... often verbatim. What I was somewhat bemused by was how, at the very least, this was all the product of some pretty artistic mental footwork. I deeply appreciated that it could indeed just be all a product of my imagination. Days later, I was having dinner when it hit me, "But what if I'm right? What if this isn't my imagination?"

I guess my point is that it is incredibly enticing to get carried away with your own thinking, especially when you have rather profound experiences that defy description on which that thinking is based. The thing to remember is that the map is NEVER the territory. This should be repeated on a daily basis lest we let our imaginations carry us into the land of make-believe.

It's just our human nature... for good or for ill. I have never attempted an autobiography yet, but I can imagine how difficult it must be to balance facts and experiential description. In many ways, subjective experience is still irreducible.

This is also why I am not wholly satisfied with strict Zen or Buddhist meditations. Taoist meditations, for example, tend to utilize visualization and imagination. There's nothing sweeter than exercising your imagination after a particular period of realistic focus.

 

[YmirGF]

Would you agree then that reality is mostly independent from what we happen to think about it?

Keeping in mind that this is just speculation, but heck, at least I'm willing to admit it... but I think it is a combination of the two. There is existential reality and there is also a superimposed personal reality that slides over existential reality. I've likened this to an ever receding tide and as you approach the water's edge the tide goes further out.... you go out further and it goes out further. The twain never really meet. Some writers in this thread beg to differ. I'm OK with that, though I do strongly disagree, but to wallow in the analogy a bit more, one can certainly perceive that they are standing in the surf... but it doesn't mean they actually are.

Is there a reality of objects being rendered through our sensory-perception into an appearance of forms?

I believe that the answer to this isn't as simple as yes or no. The problem, as I see it, is in the unpredictability of probability. (I'm losing focus now.... it's movie time, LOL... and time is ticking.)

 

[Rick O'Shez]

This is also why I am not wholly satisfied with strict Zen or Buddhist meditations. Taoist meditations, for example, tend to utilize visualization and imagination. There's nothing sweeter than exercising your imagination after a particular period of realistic focus.

There are Buddhist schools that employ visualisation.

 

[Straw Dog]

I think we fabricate an image in our mind based on input via our senses, which means that experience is inherently subjective because it depends on our state of mind at any one time. So I think that expressions like "Ultimate Reality" are nonsensical. I think that the more beliefs people have, the less clearly they are able to process the information coming in through the senses. Beliefs are like coloured glasses, they distort perception.

Yes, where there is perception, there is deception.

Ultimate reality, God, Tao, etc. are all transcendental signifiers. I'm skeptical of the possibility of transcending the context of meaningful language and communication.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Some writers in this thread beg to differ. I'm OK with that, though I do strongly disagree, but to wallow in the analogy a bit more, one can certainly perceive that they are standing in the surf... but it doesn't mean they actually are.

It's often tempting to read too much into the stuff we experience. People can get so excited speculating about what's "out there" that they forget to examine their own perceptions and assumptions. They don't look closely enough at their own mind.

 

[Straw Dog]

Keeping in mind that this is just speculation, but heck, at least I'm willing to admit it... but I think it is a combination of the two. There is existential reality and there is also a superimposed personal reality that slides over existential reality. I've likened this to an ever receding tide and as you approach the water's edge the tide goes further out.... you go out further and it goes out further. The twain never really meet. Some writers in this thread beg to differ. I'm OK with that, though I do strongly disagree, but to wallow in the analogy a bit more, one can certainly perceive that they are standing in the surf... but it doesn't mean they actually are..

Yes, reckless speculation occupies half of my free time.

The personal is existential much in the same manner that the 'personal is political'. There may always be a certain degree of incongruity eternally awaiting to be resolved, but good humor enables us to carry on.

I believe that the answer to this isn't as simple as yes or no. The problem, as I see it, is in the unpredictability of probability. (I'm losing focus now.... it's movie time, LOL... and time is ticking.)

Isn't as simple as yes or no? Come on, man, I was hoping for a closed system of systematic instruction. I don't got time to calculate probability, so I guess I'll just continue to act freely NOW.

 

[Straw Dog]

There are Buddhist schools that employ visualisation.

Yes, it does become increasingly difficult to generalize about different religions once we actively analyze their variations. Some Buddhist schools, mostly Tibetan in my experience, do utilize visualization. How to effectively use visualization is a different topic.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Yes, it does become increasingly difficult to generalize about different religions once we actively analyze their variations. Some Buddhist schools, mostly Tibetan in my experience, do utilize visualization. How to effectively use visualization is a different topic.

I used to do visualisation in Tibetan schools, but it wasn't really my cup of tea. I prefer just resting in the present.

 

[Straw Dog]

I used to do visualisation in Tibetan schools, but it wasn't really my cup of tea. I prefer just resting in the present.

Yes, any useful visualization happens within the present. Resting in the moment is the catalyst for any meaningful action. It just feels good to exercise the imagination after the fasting of the mind. Do you catch my drift?

 

[godnotgod]

No? Since when does Oneness disagree with itself?

Whether we like it or not, identification is natural. What do you identify with?

It's not natural; it's contrived and practically unavoidable, as you enter into it closely after birth via your social indoctrination.

What is natural is the effortless unfolding and flowering of your true nature, finally freed of the contraints of Identity and the illusory, fictional self.

Yes, Oneness enters into it, forgetting that it is the Oneness, and that is why there is suffering and the seeking that follows. At last, when Oneness finally awakens to it's true nature, there is freedom. Our true nature is not that in Identification, which sees itself as a separate ego acting upon the world; it is that in Oneness, The Universal Self, The Universe itself.

We are all playing the cosmic game of Hide and Seek. When in Identification, it is the Hide phase; then, at some point, it is noticed that something is not quite right, and one begins his spiritual quest. This is the Seek phase. Spiritual Awakening is the jewel in the Crown we call Enlightenment. It is the end of suffering and entry into the pure state of Absolute Joy. This, the Buddha achieved.

 

[godnotgod]

Hmm... Yes, maybe that is what most of us are doing most of the time.

Make-believe can be a lot of fun though. Imagination is often underrated.

Make no mistake: higher consciousness is definitely beyond make-believe. Understand that it is precisely the state of Identification that is fiction; make-believe. Awakening from this dream-fiction is what true Reality is.

 

[godnotgod]

Yes, any useful visualization happens within the present. Resting in the moment is the catalyst for any meaningful action. It just feels good to exercise the imagination after the fasting of the mind. Do you catch my drift?

Higher Consciousness and its experience is not a 'self-improvement' 'feel-good' excercise, like having your nails done or getting a shampoo.

 

[Straw Dog]

It's not natural; it's contrived and practically unavoidable, as you enter into it closely after birth via your social indoctrination.

What is natural is your true nature, finally freed of the contraints of Identity.

Is this particular dichotomy between natural and social identity perfectly contrived?

What particular limitations do you naturally experience?

Yes, Oneness enters into it, forgetting that it is the Oneness, and that is why there is suffering and the seeking that follows. At last, when Oneness finally awakens to it's true nature, there is freedom. Our true nature is not that in Identification, which sees itself as a separate ego acting upon the world; it is that in Oneness, The Universe itself.

We are all playing the cosmic game of Hide and Seek. When in Identification, it is the Hide phase; then, at some point, it is noticed that something is not quite right, and one begins his spiritual quest. This is the Seek phase. Spiritual Awakening is the jewel in the Crown we call Enlightenment. It is the end of suffering and entry into the pure state of Absolute Joy. This, the Buddha achieved.

Why do you desire 'purity'? Is a static state of emotional experience desirable?

 

[godnotgod]

I used to do visualisation in Tibetan schools, but it wasn't really my cup of tea. I prefer just resting in the present.

Answer my question:

When the Buddha declared that he had achieved Supreme Enlightenment, was this just a personal belief or speculation?

 

[Straw Dog]

Make no mistake: higher consciousness is definitely beyond make-believe. Understand that it is precisely the state of Identification that is fiction; make-believe. Awakening from this dream-fiction is what true Reality is.

I agree to a degree.

So you identify with "Reality" then?

 

[godnotgod]

They don't look closely enough at their own mind.

There is mind, and then there is the looker, looking at mind with mind. The mind is an illusion, a self-created principle.

 

[godnotgod]

I agree to a degree.

So you identify with "Reality" then?

No, not in the sense of an individual self, or ego that has identity. Reality has no such identity. Identity is in Time and Space; the true nature of things is not. It is free of such contamination. It is Unborn, Uncaused, Ungrown, not in memory or history.