Covid: ICU nurse speaks out

[Wandering Monk]

I'm sorry to hear about this. Many of us are being impacted.

Just got news she's been medevac'd to a different hospital and is on a ventilator.

 

[Left Coast]

Sure.... Hopefully I won't violate any rules

Pros of vaccination:

• The higher possibility of you not contracting Covid
• If contracting Covid, it may be at a lesser degree of intensity (although some have died or have been admitted to ICU
• If there is a vaccination passport, there is a certain degree of more comfort for those around you(even if it doesn't have a guarantee)

(shorter list does not equate as less important or less valuable... just less possibilities.)

Cons of vaccination:

• It still is in an FDA "emergency use authorization" - not an truly approved vaccination (if I understand the process correctly)
• It uses new technology (RNA manipulation) - with no historical safety record (as far as I know)
• There are some (though not of great percentage) of immediate side effects that can result from mild discomfort to death and in between the two.
• There is no knowledge that can be determined, at this time, of long term effects. As an example -- an enlarged heart that may be overcome now but don't know what the effects are 40 years later.
• It isn't a guarantee that you won't get Covid, you might need a third booster shot, and since it is a virus, additional vaccinations may be required for variant Covid viruses

Pros of natural vaccination:

• The higher possibility of you not contracting Covid again
• If you contract it again, it may be at a lesser degree of intensity
• If there is a "I have had covid naturally passport (like in Israel)" there is a certain degree of more comfort for those around you (even if it doesn't have a guarantee)

Cons of natural vaccination:

• you could die (even if the percentage is not very large - it gets larger the older you get or the more compromised your body is) - but that is true of the vaccination too
• You could have some lasting effects if it affected your cerebral area.

Pros of no vaccination:

• you maintain your freedom of decision (although you still have your freedom of decision if you DECIDE to take the vaccine

Cons of no vaccination:

• please reference to cons of natural vaccination.

I don't really find the logic of "If you don't get vaccinated, you are a danger to society", no more than if you get in your car to drive. Because if you feel that the unvaccinated are a danger to you, you can go ahead and get vaccinated and not worry about it. (At least in my view)

Would you like to add to my list? More minds makes a better list.

This list is highly misleading, as it pretends that risks and benefits of various things are equal, when they demonstrably are not.

You are vastly more likely to be protected from COVID and have no or mild side effects from the vaccine than be killed by it.

You are vastly more likely to get seriously sick or die from getting COVID itself than getting the vaccine.

The vaccine is extremely safe as has been repeatedly demonstrated both in clinical trials and in the real world. The Emergency Use Authorization required substantial clinical testing for efficacy and safety of the vaccines.

You can make the "we don't know what this will do to you in 40 years" argument about literally any medical technology, treatment, surgery, medication, etc. that is less than 40 years old. So unless you abstain from all medical advances that have been made since 1980, the objection is hollow and ad hoc.

Finally, your comments about mRNA vaccine technology are uninformed:

Understanding mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines

mRNA vaccines — a new era in vaccinology | Nature Reviews Drug Discovery

The long road to mRNA vaccines - CIHR

 

[Unveiled Artist]

One other comment - it's not just about anti-vaxxers but also those who won't wear masks, tear them off of other people and throw temper tantrums worthy of a 2 year old.

For the first time in my life, I'm thinking I might need a gun to protect myself against those domestic pro-death fanatic terrorists.

I live in a non populated area. Do you live around a lot of people that danger would be high enough for a gun?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This list is highly misleading, as it pretends that risks and benefits of various things are equal, when they demonstrably are not.

You are vastly more likely to be protected from COVID and have no or mild side effects from the vaccine than be killed by it.

You are vastly more likely to get seriously sick or die from getting COVID itself than getting the vaccine.

The vaccine is extremely safe as has been repeatedly demonstrated both in clinical trials and in the real world. The Emergency Use Authorization required substantial clinical testing for efficacy and safety of the vaccines.

You can make the "we don't know what this will do to you in 40 years" argument about literally any medical technology, treatment, surgery, medication, etc. that is less than 40 years old. So unless you abstain from all medical advances that have been made since 1980, the objection is hollow and ad hoc.

Finally, your comments about mRNA vaccine technology are uninformed:

Understanding mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines

mRNA vaccines — a new era in vaccinology | Nature Reviews Drug Discovery

The long road to mRNA vaccines - CIHR

Why can't they be equal instead of one better than the other?

Both sides are warranted in their decisions so why would either be discredited?

 

[Left Coast]

Why can't they be equal instead of one better than the other?

Because that's not how the math works out? The probabilities of the various outcomes are not equal.

 

[Father Heathen]

Those who oppose getting vaccinated probably don't cover their mouths when they cough or sneeze, nor do they likely wash their hands after using the toilet.

Also, suggesting that getting vaccinated, wearing a mask, social distancing, is done "out of fear" is a childish straw man. Do we wear seatbelts and helmets or keep fire extinguishers and first-aid kits on hand "out of fear" or are they simply sensible precautionary measures?
I don't worry about contracting the virus myself, but I would rather not unknowingly carry it and infect others with it, especially someone like my ailing, elderly father. Apparently the idea of considering other people and the possibly of jeopardizing their wellbeing is totally alien to them. They see the body of another dead child as an improvised sandbag for their antivax entrenchment.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Because that's not how the math works out? The probabilities of the various outcomes are not equal.

They seem to be in the eye of the beholder. Same information. Different decisions. How can you tell which one is more credible in and of themselves?

Stats and facts aren't bias. People make decisions in part based on their biases (their experiences, political views, morals, and so forth). So, it has to be more than just posting numbers and sources. Unless it's something silly like vaccines causing magnetisms, what's wrong with the other side?

 

[Nimos]

How do you know it's not well-informed?

Obviously I don't which is why I asked.

1. On one side you have Covid that might kill you
vs
2. A vaccine that might what?

Which is why I asked how it is informed. What do they fear about the vaccine?

You haven't heard anything negative? Side affects alone are negative. I mean when we take any medication it will have negative and positive side affects and we weigh the risk versus the benefits and make our decisions from there.

Yes, there usually are with any medicine/vaccination, this is from Pfizers own material:

WHAT ARE THE RISKS OF THE PFIZER-BIONTECH COVID-19 VACCINE?
There is a remote chance that the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine could cause a severe allergic reaction. A severe allergic reaction would usually occur within a few minutes to one hour after getting a dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine.

For this reason, your vaccination provider may ask you to stay at the place where you received your vaccine for monitoring after vaccination. Signs of a severe allergic reaction can include:
• Difficulty breathing
• Swelling of your face and throat
• A fast heartbeat
• A bad rash all over your body
• Dizziness and weakness Myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle) and pericarditis (inflammation of the lining outside the heart) have occurred in some people who have received the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine.In most of these people, symptoms began within a few days following receipt of the second dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine.
The chance of having this occur is very low.

You should seek medical attention right away if you have any of the following symptoms after receiving the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine:
• Chest pain
• Shortness of breath
• Feelings of having a fast-beating, fluttering, or pounding heart

Side effects that have been reported with the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine include:
• severe allergic reactions
• non-severe allergic reactions such as rash, itching, hives, or swelling of the face
• myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle)
• pericarditis (inflammation of the lining outside the heart) • injection site pain • tiredness • headache 4 Revised: 12 August 2021 • muscle pain • chills • joint pain • fever
• injection site swelling
• injection site redness
• nausea
• feeling unwell
• swollen lymph nodes (lymphadenopathy)
• diarrhea
• vomiting
• arm pain

These may not be all the possible side effects of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine. Serious and unexpected side effects may occur. Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is still being studied in clinical trials.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is for headache medicine that you buy in the store.

Paracetamol is known as acetaminophen in the USA. Acetaminophen relieves mild-to-moderate pain, headache and fever.

Acetaminophen: capsule, capsule liquid filled, elixir, liquid, powder, solution, suppository, suspension, syrup, tablet, tablet chewable, tablet disintegrating, tablet extended release

Other dosage forms:

• intravenous solution

Side effects requiring immediate medical attention
Along with its needed effects, acetaminophen may cause some unwanted effects. Although not all of these side effects may occur, if they do occur they may need medical attention.

Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking acetaminophen:

Rare

• Bloody or black, tarry stools
• bloody or cloudy urine
• fever with or without chills (not present before treatment and not caused by the condition being treated)
• pain in the lower back and/or side (severe and/or sharp)
• pinpoint red spots on the skin
• skin rash, hives, or itching
• sore throat (not present before treatment and not caused by the condition being treated)
• sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
• sudden decrease in the amount of urine
• unusual bleeding or bruising
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• yellow eyes or skin

Get emergency help immediately if any of the following symptoms of overdose occur while taking acetaminophen:

Symptoms of overdose

• Diarrhea
• increased sweating
• loss of appetite
• nausea or vomiting
• stomach cramps or pain
• swelling, pain, or tenderness in the upper abdomen or stomach area

So looking at the list of side effects for the covid vaccine, it doesn't exactly look particular dangerous I think, compared to dying

The problem is even on RF people list the reasons that are very well understood but you guys don't accept them as reasonable. So, I'd have to ask other than vaccine exemption, what reasons would you accept?

I honestly haven't heard anyone give a reason why they don't want to be vaccinate, I have heard people say they don't buy not what the reason is.

 

[Father Heathen]

Why can't they be equal instead of one better than the other?

Both sides are warranted in their decisions so why would either be discredited?

Because one is vastly more logical and substantiated than the other. That's how validity works.

 

[Left Coast]

They seem to be in the eye of the beholder. Same information. Different decisions. How can you tell which one is more credible in and of themselves?

If you make a claim that two outcomes are equally likely, and in fact they're not equally likely...you are incorrect. It's fairly simple.

Stats and facts aren't bias. People make decisions in part based on their biases (their experiences, political views, morals, and so forth). So, it has to be more than just posting numbers and sources. Unless it's something silly like vaccines causing magnetisms, what's wrong with the other side?

What's wrong with drinking bleach?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Those who oppose getting vaccinated probably don't cover their mouths after they cough or sneeze, nor do they likely wash their hands after using the toilet.

Also, suggesting that getting vaccinated, wearing a mask, social distancing, is done "out of fear" is a childish straw man. Do we wear seatbelts and helmets or keep fire extinguishers and first-aid kits on hand "out of fear" or are they simply sensible precautionary measures?
I don't worry about contracting the virus myself, but I would rather not unknowingly carry it and infect others with it, especially someone like my ailing, elderly father. Apparently he idea of considering other people and the possibly jeopardizing their wellbeing is totally alien to them. They see the body of another dead child as an improvised sandbag for their antivax entrenchment.

That's ridiculous. We've been doing this way before COVID why would that change?

You don't think fear plays part in the pandemic???
How to manage fear during the pandemic, according to a Penn State expert | Penn State University

Covid-19 Resources
Mental health resources included

Fear is a natural reaction to something like this. Many people took the vaccine out of fear. When you feel your life is in danger (which is in part fear) your body/mind goes into flight fright. If it wasn't fear (and so forth) then provaxxers can have a regular conversation without taking it personal.

It's natural to worry. Fear doesn't need to be running around all of the place. It just means you are cautious of others well-being insofar that your emotions are drawn up into it. It causes defense mechanisms and as an observation it can feel like an attack but its just an observation based on the words provaxxers use and the context behind them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Because one is vastly more logical and substantiated than the other. That's how validity works.

How? They both are well reasoned.

Which one is not logical and why?

1. It still is in an FDA "emergency use authorization"

What is wrong with people not choosing the vaccine because it's not approved? Do you think people should just jump and take something just because "it works" without any forethought on it?

2. There are some (though not of great percentage) of immediate side effects that can result from mild discomfort to death and in between the two. COVID-19 Vaccination

Now unless I'm off, why wouldn't someone take this under consideration when choosing whether to take the vaccine or not?

3. There is no knowledge that can be determined, at this time, of long term effects.

There can't be data to know there isn't long-term side affects so that's something to take into consideration

4. It isn't a guarantee that you won't get Covid, you might need a third booster shot, and since it is a virus, additional vaccinations may be required for variant Covid viruses

There are breakthroughs and they are to be expected COVID-19 Breakthrough Case Investigations and Reporting | CDC

Why are these not logical?

I mean you can say both sides are logical and still side on the one that makes sense to you.

 

[Father Heathen]

I There are pros and cons to both sides.

Okay, weigh these pros and cons, compare and contrast them, and then sum up the proportions. There's simply no contest.

You know the kool-aid is potent when not even accumulating piles of dead children can snap people to their senses.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Refer to 73

If you make a claim that two outcomes are equally likely, and in fact they're not equally likely...you are incorrect. It's fairly simple.

What's wrong with drinking bleach?

CDC has both sides so you can make informed decisions without confirmation bias. Rejecting the other side (referenced post) doesn't change anything.

I'm not sure how bleach has anything to do with this.

 

[We Never Know]

Those who oppose getting vaccinated probably don't cover their mouths after they cough or sneeze, nor do they likely wash their hands after using the toilet.

Also, suggesting that getting vaccinated, wearing a mask, social distancing, is done "out of fear" is a childish straw man. Do we wear seatbelts and helmets or keep fire extinguishers and first-aid kits on hand "out of fear" or are they simply sensible precautionary measures?
I don't worry about contracting the virus myself, but I would rather not unknowingly carry it and infect others with it, especially someone like my ailing, elderly father. Apparently the idea of considering other people and the possibly of jeopardizing their wellbeing is totally alien to them. They see the body of another dead child as an improvised sandbag for their antivax entrenchment.

"Those who oppose getting vaccinated probably don't cover their mouths after they cough or sneeze,"

I cover my mouth before and during the time I cough and sneeze. Covering after is kinda pointless.


"nor do they likely wash their hands after using the toilet."

Every time here

 

[Left Coast]

CDC has both sides so you can make informed decisions without confirmation bias. Rejecting the other side (referenced post) doesn't change anything.

The CDC highly recommends vaccination.

I'm not sure how bleach has anything to do with this.

You're asking what's wrong with particular decision. I'm trying to help us achieve common understanding using a different example.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

One other comment - it's not just about anti-vaxxers but also those who won't wear masks, tear them off of other people and throw temper tantrums worthy of a 2 year old.

For the first time in my life, I'm thinking I might need a gun to protect myself against those domestic pro-death fanatic terrorists.

Another question. Are they doing anything to you or is it just the idea they are unvaccinated that gets to you?

 

[Father Heathen]

I cover my mouth before and during the time I cough and sneeze. Covering after is kinda pointless.

Poor wording on my part. I edited it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The CDC highly recommends vaccination.

I know. That doesn't invalidate seeing both sides.

You're asking what's wrong with particular decision. I'm trying to help us achieve common understanding using a different example.

I was asking what's wrong with seeing both sides while choosing one side more appropriate for you than the other.

Why does, say, side affects need to be discredited just because the vaccines work majority of the time?

Why can't people not take the vaccine because its experimental while maintain that it is safe so far we know of at the moment?

Why can't people not take the vaccine because its not guaranteed they won't have COVID while others feel safe that catching COVID with the vaccine is rare?

These are "and" questions rather than either or.

What's wrong with that?

 

[Left Coast]

How? They both are well reasoned.

Which one is not logical and why?

1. It still is in an FDA "emergency use authorization"

What is wrong with people not choosing the vaccine because it's not approved? Do you think people should just jump and take something just because "it works" without any forethought on it?

What is required for a vaccine to obtain emergency use authorization? Do you have any indication the vaccines on the market now will not be fully approved in the US?

When they are fully approved, will you then get one? If the answer is no, then you're bringing up this objection for no reason.

2. There are some (though not of great percentage) of immediate side effects that can result from mild discomfort to death and in between the two. COVID-19 Vaccination

Now unless I'm off, why wouldn't someone take this under consideration when choosing whether to take the vaccine or not?

If someone did rationally take it into consideration, they'd realize that it's vastly more likely that you'll be killed by COVID than by the vaccine. Millions have been killed by COVID. How many have been killed from the vaccine? If we rationally took these things into account, we'd get vaccinated.

3. There is no knowledge that can be determined, at this time, of long term effects.

There can't be data to know there isn't long-term side affects so that's something to take into consideration

Asked and answered. Unless you abstain from all medical advancements since 1980, the objection is arbitrary.

4. It isn't a guarantee that you won't get Covid, you might need a third booster shot, and since it is a virus, additional vaccinations may be required for variant Covid viruses

So what?

There are breakthroughs and they are to be expected COVID-19 Breakthrough Case Investigations and Reporting | CDC

There are vastly more unvaccinated cases than breakthroughs. Anyone rationally taking the numbers into consideration would know that.