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Covid: ICU nurse speaks out

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I know. That doesn't invalidate seeing both sides.

Actually it does, because the very people providing you with the data, whose careers are dedicated to collecting, analyzing and interpreting that data, are telling you your analysis is flawed. So as a layperson that should give you some pause.

Why does, say, side affects need to be discredited just because the vaccines work majority of the time?

It is not that side effects are "discredited," it is that statistically we know they are likely to be mild/negligible. So compared with the statistical advantage of not getting COVID, a disease that has killed millions of people, the preferred decision is rather obvious.

Why can't people not take the vaccine because its experimental while maintain that it is safe so far we know of at the moment?

Because it isn't "experimental." If it were, it wouldn't have been approved for use on the public. Again, the objection is arbitrary.

Why can't people not take the vaccine because its not guaranteed they won't have COVID while others feel safe that catching COVID with the vaccine is rare?

Because again, those two outcomes are not equally likely.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
What is required for a vaccine to obtain emergency use authorization? Do you have any indication the vaccines on the market now will not be fully approved in the US?

When they are fully approved, will you then get one? If the answer is no, then you're bringing up this objection for no reason.

I never claimed they won't be. I just said that was one of the reasons people don't take the vaccine. It's a valid reason.

If someone did rationally take it into consideration, they'd realize that it's vastly more likely that you'll be killed by COVID than by the vaccine. Millions have been killed by COVID. How many have been killed from the vaccine? If we rationally took these things into account, we'd get vaccinated.

But not everyone is at the same risk of catching COVID to make that true. Some people are at such a low risk that they don't want to be one of the rare ones that get a heart problem from their choice to take the vaccine.

I never said the vaccine was more dangerous than COVID. Just saying the risk of catching COVID is not equal. People take that into consideration.

Asked and answered. Unless you abstain from all medical advancements since 1980, the objection is arbitrary.

No. It's just making an deliberate choice not to take the vaccine. Not everyone falls under this category.


Well, we hoped that only one/two shot would be required but now that we're getting breakthroughs, they're reconsidering. Unless you're not concerned about breakthroughs, that's a pretty good consideration right there.

There are vastly more unvaccinated cases than breakthroughs. Anyone rationally taking the numbers into consideration would know that.

This is nothing new. Unvaccinated people will always be at risk so yes they would be the majority of cases (well, those media likes to report to make people think unvaccinated people are to blame). It's a guilt-trip tactic and some unvaccinated people see that intention and don't fall for it.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Actually it does, because the very people providing you with the data, whose careers are dedicated to collecting, analyzing and interpreting that data, are telling you your analysis is flawed. So as a layperson that should give you some pause.

CDC is flawed???

It is not that side effects are "discredited," it is that statistically we know they are likely to be mild/negligible. So compared with the statistical advantage of not getting COVID, a disease that has killed millions of people, the preferred decision is rather obvious.

Heart problems and blood clots aren't mild.

Side affects meaning complications to the vaccine CDC are investigating not side affects like sore arm and a headache.

Because it isn't "experimental." If it were, it wouldn't have been approved for use on the public. Again, the objection is arbitrary.

This is totally false. Right now they are experimenting or testing on teens and later they'll study to test on children. They're still looking into side effects and even list things they don't know yet that they are continuing to learn.

Experimental meaning the vaccines are still in discovery and they're still figuring out how it works and all of that.

Because again, those two outcomes are not equally likely.

Some take this into consideration for their own valid reasons. Just don't take it for granted though.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I couldn't read your colors. You have to keep them black. From what I got so far I read all of that already.

You and I read that COVID kills X many people and vaccines work X percentage but I choose not to vaccinate and you do. You can say that's an immoral decision but not a decision that's not well-informed.

With side affects I'm referring to complications CDC is looking into not a sore throat and a headache.

Obviously I don't which is why I asked.

1. On one side you have Covid that might kill you
vs
2. A vaccine that might what?

Which is why I asked how it is informed. What do they fear about the vaccine?


Yes, there usually are with any medicine/vaccination, this is from Pfizers own material:

WHAT ARE THE RISKS OF THE PFIZER-BIONTECH COVID-19 VACCINE?
There is a remote chance that the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine could cause a severe allergic reaction. A severe allergic reaction would usually occur within a few minutes to one hour after getting a dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine.

For this reason, your vaccination provider may ask you to stay at the place where you received your vaccine for monitoring after vaccination. Signs of a severe allergic reaction can include:
• Difficulty breathing
• Swelling of your face and throat
• A fast heartbeat
• A bad rash all over your body
• Dizziness and weakness Myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle) and pericarditis (inflammation of the lining outside the heart) have occurred in some people who have received the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine.
In most of these people, symptoms began within a few days following receipt of the second dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine.
The chance of having this occur is very low.

You should seek medical attention right away if you have any of the following symptoms after receiving the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine:

• Chest pain
• Shortness of breath
• Feelings of having a fast-beating, fluttering, or pounding heart

Side effects that have been reported with the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine include:
• severe allergic reactions
• non-severe allergic reactions such as rash, itching, hives, or swelling of the face
• myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle)
• pericarditis (inflammation of the lining outside the heart) • injection site pain • tiredness • headache 4 Revised: 12 August 2021 • muscle pain • chills • joint pain • fever
• injection site swelling
• injection site redness
• nausea
• feeling unwell
• swollen lymph nodes (lymphadenopathy)
• diarrhea
• vomiting
• arm pain

These may not be all the possible side effects of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine. Serious and unexpected side effects may occur. Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is still being studied in clinical trials.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is for headache medicine that you buy in the store.

Paracetamol is known as acetaminophen in the USA. Acetaminophen relieves mild-to-moderate pain, headache and fever.


Acetaminophen: capsule, capsule liquid filled, elixir, liquid, powder, solution, suppository, suspension, syrup, tablet, tablet chewable, tablet disintegrating, tablet extended release


Other dosage forms:

Side effects requiring immediate medical attention
Along with its needed effects, acetaminophen may cause some unwanted effects. Although not all of these side effects may occur, if they do occur they may need medical attention.

Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking acetaminophen:

Rare
  • Bloody or black, tarry stools
  • bloody or cloudy urine
  • fever with or without chills (not present before treatment and not caused by the condition being treated)
  • pain in the lower back and/or side (severe and/or sharp)
  • pinpoint red spots on the skin
  • skin rash, hives, or itching
  • sore throat (not present before treatment and not caused by the condition being treated)
  • sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
  • sudden decrease in the amount of urine
  • unusual bleeding or bruising
  • unusual tiredness or weakness
  • yellow eyes or skin
Get emergency help immediately if any of the following symptoms of overdose occur while taking acetaminophen:

Symptoms of overdose
  • Diarrhea
  • increased sweating
  • loss of appetite
  • nausea or vomiting
  • stomach cramps or pain
  • swelling, pain, or tenderness in the upper abdomen or stomach area
So looking at the list of side effects for the covid vaccine, it doesn't exactly look particular dangerous I think, compared to dying :)


I honestly haven't heard anyone give a reason why they don't want to be vaccinate, I have heard people say they don't buy not what the reason is.



What would be an example of a reason?
We listed a whole lot of reasons.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
What still shocks me is the amount of evidence for the vaccine, I mean just a quick search on the good old google, it seems that 1.8 billion are fully vaccinated and doubling that for those that have gotten the first one only. That is a pretty huge amount of test cases :D
What never ceases to amaze and shock me are people who make a deal and mark of pride they don't trust the media. But they are getting their nonsense from the media.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I never claimed they won't be. I just said that was one of the reasons people don't take the vaccine. It's a valid reason.

You didn't answer any of my questions. What was required for the vaccines to obtain Emergency Use Authorization? What indication do you we have that they won't be fully approved in a short time? Will you get vaccinated once they are?

But not everyone is at the same risk of catching COVID to make that true. Some people are at such a low risk that they don't want to be one of the rare ones that get a heart problem from their choice to take the vaccine.

Statistically that doesn't make sense. If you're willing to take the risk of getting COVID and being seriously ill or dying, then statistically you should be willing to get the vaccine. The former is vastly more likely to harm you. The latter is vastly more likely to help you.

I never said the vaccine was more dangerous than COVID. Just saying the risk of catching COVID is not equal. People take that into consideration.

It's not only about you, though. It's also about everyone around you.

No. It's just making an deliberate choice not to take the vaccine. Not everyone falls under this category.

Yes, for a ****ty reason. You asked what's wrong with the reasoning. I'm explaining it to you.

Well, we hoped that only one/two shot would be required but now that we're getting breakthroughs, they're reconsidering. Unless you're not concerned about breakthroughs, that's a pretty good consideration right there.

It really isn't, because you're much more likely to get COVID without a vaccine than with. So if getting COVID is such a big concern for you, statistically you should get the vaccine.

This is nothing new. Unvaccinated people will always be at risk so yes they would be the majority of cases (well, those media likes to report to make people think unvaccinated people are to blame). It's a guilt-trip tactic and some unvaccinated people see that intention and don't fall for it.

It isn't guilt to simply look at the statistics and point out which choice is the more rational one. You keep asking for the reasoning. I'm giving it to you.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
CDC is flawed???

:facepalm: No. The CDC is recommending vaccination. If you're looking at their data and coming to a different conclusion, and don't have their expertise in the science and statistics of the matter...that should give you pause.

Heart problems and blood clots aren't mild.

Actually the heart problems have been largely mild.

COVID-19 Vaccination

Side affects meaning complications to the vaccine CDC are investigating not side affects like sore arm and a headache.

What percentage of people who have been vaccinated have experienced a serious side effect like the ones you're indicating?

This is totally false. Right now they are experimenting or testing on teens and later they'll study to test on children. They're still looking into side effects and even list things they don't know yet that they are continuing to learn.

No, what I said is not false. The vaccines are not currently being given to preteens other than in clinical trials, UA. The vaccines being given to people 12 and up have already gone through clinical trials and been approved for public use. That's why people are getting them.

Some take this into consideration for their own valid reasons. Just don't take it for granted though.

You keep saying this but the "valid reasons" don't make any sense. You are less likely to get COVID if you've been vaccinated. That's just a fact. So if you're concerned about getting COVID, you should get vaccinated. This isn't tough reasoning to follow.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
:facepalm: No. The CDC is recommending vaccination. If you're looking at their data and coming to a different conclusion, and don't have their expertise in the science and statistics of the matter...that should give you pause.

The comment you made was misplaced.

Actually it does, because the very people providing you with the data, whose careers are dedicated to collecting, analyzing and interpreting that data, are telling you your analysis is flawed. So as a layperson that should give you some pause.

Unless CDC is flawed, this doesn't make sense.

Actually the heart problems have been largely mild.

What percentage of people who have been vaccinated have experienced a serious side effect like the ones you're indicating?

Yes. Those that have had more serious symptoms, though rare, make it well worth taking the vaccine into consideration.

It doesn't matter. The point is that these things Do exist and people take this into consideration regardless what percentage it may be.

No, what I said is not false. The vaccines are not currently being given to preteens other than in clinical trials, UA. The vaccines being given to people 12 and up have already gone through clinical trials and been approved for public use. That's why people are getting them.

Experimental meaning the vaccines are still in discovery and they're still figuring out how it works and all of that.

Which means they are testing this on teens and will do so on children. It's by strict definition.

I'm not talking about the FDA process just that these vaccines are still being experimented and we're learning more about it.

You keep saying this but the "valid reasons" don't make any sense. You are less likely to get COVID if you've been vaccinated. That's just a fact. So if you're concerned about getting COVID, you should get vaccinated. This isn't tough reasoning to follow.

I know. No one said it wasn't.
That doesn't make unvaccinated reasonings less valid though.

People at high risk would be more concerned than those who are not.

People use this level of risk to decide whether they want to vaccinate.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Unless the CDC has advised against the vaccination, were you going somewhere with this?

KenS was listening the pros and cons of why people decide to take the vaccine and why people do not. They are valid reasons but for some reason you guys either minimalize them or discredit them.

I'm not at all sure how these reasons have to do with your comment: Yeah, sure. Agenda driven politicians and pundits are just as reliable and trustworthy as actual doctors and scientists.

Can you clarify cause a lot of unvaccinated don't take advice or listen to politicians, pundits, instead of trustworthy doctors and scientists.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
KenS was listening the pros and cons of why people decide to take the vaccine and why people do not. They are valid reasons but for some reason you guys either minimalize them or discredit them.
The "some reason" has been thoroughly explained in this thread.
I don't get how you're struggling with it, unless you're being deliberately obtuse. Is there some emotional barrier that makes it difficult to see things rationally and objectively?
Can you clarify cause a lot of unvaccinated don't take advice or listen to politicians, pundits, instead of trustworthy doctors and scientists.
Of all the world's doctors and scientists, what percentage opposes vaccination?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The "some reason" has been thoroughly explained in this thread.
I don't get how you're struggling with it, unless you're being deliberately obtuse. Is there some emotional barrier that makes it difficult to see things rationally and objectively?

I don't hold good discussions with insults.

You'll have to rephrase it so I know what you're trying to say.

Of all the world's doctors and scientists, what percentage opposes vaccination?

I do not know.

This doesn't prove my points invalidate though unless you have some context. The question sounds like a fallacy set up not a genuine question.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
The comment you made was misplaced.

Actually it does, because the very people providing you with the data, whose careers are dedicated to collecting, analyzing and interpreting that data, are telling you your analysis is flawed. So as a layperson that should give you some pause.

Unless CDC is flawed, this doesn't make sense.

...what? My decision aligns with the CDC's recommendation based on their analysis of the data. Yours doesn't. What else would you like to discuss on that point?

Yes. Those that have had more serious symptoms, though rare, make it well worth taking the vaccine into consideration.

It doesn't matter. The point is that these things Do exist and people take this into consideration regardless what percentage it may be.

The percentages entirely matter. Is it a "valid" decision to never leave your home because you may be hit by lightning? It's happened before, you know!

If your answer is yes, then it seems as though your threshold for the "validity" of health-related decisions is basically non-existent.

If your answer is no, then it should be obvious to you that the probabilities of various possible outcomes are obviously relevant to evaluating the reasonableness of a given choice.

So if some adverse outcome is possible, but incredibly unlikely, then it becomes vastly less relevant as a reason not to take the action than if the adverse outcome were more likely.

Experimental meaning the vaccines are still in discovery and they're still figuring out how it works and all of that.

No. Scientists know how the vaccines work. We've known how they work for months - years, actually.

What the FDA is evaluating is whether, in children under 12, there are a higher rate of adverse reactions or the vaccines are less effective than in older people.

Which means they are testing this on teens and will do so on children. It's by strict definition.

I'm not talking about the FDA process just that these vaccines are still being experimented and we're learning more about it.

What we're learning more about is the possible side effects and efficacy in kids. We know how the vaccines "work" biologically. That's not in question.

I know. No one said it wasn't.
That doesn't make unvaccinated reasonings less valid though.

But it literally does. What do you think makes a reasoning valid?

People at high risk would be more concerned than those who are not.

People use this level of risk to decide whether they want to vaccinate.

You have no clue what high risk people you come into contact with, directly or indirectly, throughout your day (unless you literally never leave your home I suppose). Again, vaccination is about more than your own personal health risks.
 
Last edited:

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Goodness gracious.
...what? My decision aligns with the CDC's recommendation based on their analysis of the data. Yours doesn't. What else would you like to discuss on that point?

1. Here's what you said
Actually it does, because the very people providing you with the data, whose careers are dedicated to collecting, analyzing and interpreting that data, are telling you your analysis is flawed. So as a layperson that should give you some pause.

2. Here the source links in 73 I listed

COVID-19 Vaccination
COVID-19 Breakthrough Case Investigations and Reporting | CDC

3. You said my analysis is flawed... how so?

We both get the same info from the CDC.

The percentages entirely matter. Is it a "valid" decision to never leave your home because you may be hit by lightning? It's happened before, you know!

If your answer is yes, then it seems as though your threshold for the "validity" of health-related decisions is basically non-existent.

If your answer is no, then it should be obvious to you that the probabilities of various possible outcomes are obviously relevant to evaluating the reasonableness of a given choice.

So if some adverse outcome is possible, but incredibly unlikely, then it becomes vastly less relevant as a reason not to take the action than if the adverse outcome were more likely.

You're assuming rather than asking.

The point is people take into consideration complications of meds, treatments, vaccines in and of themselves.
The sub-point is of course they weigh facts, morals, their circumstance, and risk of catching COVID to make health related decisions

You will need to ask the question directly. I can't tell if its rhetorical, sarcastic, or just unclear.

No. Scientists know how the vaccines work. We've known how they work for months - years, actually.

What the FDA is testing is whether, in children under 12, there are a higher rate of adverse reactions or the vaccines are less effective than in older people.

What we're learning more about is the possible side effects and efficacy in kids. We know how the vaccines "work" biologically. That's not in question.

My point is that's the definition of experimental. That's why it is experimental.

But it literally does. What do you think makes a reasoning valid?

Any question(s) that lets people descern whether a treatment, med, vaccine is best for their well-being, is it worth it, what's their health, what are the facts, things like that. It has nothing to do with the COVID argument but just generally thinking of one's health in regards to what treatments, meds, vaccines, and so forth people want to put in their bodies. Thousands of people dying doesn't invalidate the importance of people making health decisions for their well-being and others.

You have no clue what high risk people you come into contact with, directly or indirectly, throughout your day (unless you literally never leave your home I suppose). Again, vaccination is about more than your own personal health risks.

Of course not. Therefore I'm not going to fret about it.

It could be. Depends on if I put myself in a higher risk of catching COVID. For now, if I took the vaccine it would be "just because..." I rather it be because I am morally, factually, well-informed. Stats and facts don't influence me to take the vaccine it just gives me knowledge about it. It only is useful if I wanted to make a decision to take the vaccine then I can weigh the pros and cons based on BOTH sides. But since I am not, it's educational but nothing more than that.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
I don't hold good discussions with insults.

You'll have to rephrase it so I know what you're trying to say.



I do not know.

This doesn't prove my points invalidate though unless you have some context. The question sounds like a fallacy set up not a genuine question.
Nah, there's definitely some emotional barrier at play.
 
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