Covid: ICU nurse speaks out

[Nimos]

I couldn't read your colors. You have to keep them black. From what I got so far I read all of that already.

You and I read that COVID kills X many people and vaccines work X percentage but I choose not to vaccinate and you do. You can say that's an immoral decision but not a decision that's not well-informed.

With side affects I'm referring to complications CDC is looking into not a sore throat and a headache.

What is written in colors are the side effects from the covid vaccine from Pfizer and that of standard headache pills you buy at the store. And you could take almost any medicine you buy and it will have a long list of potential side effects. Yet people still take a headache pill, cough medicine etc. without any issue, and some might even take them regularly, whereas the vaccine is a single time as far as we know, some might have to get a boost later on.

Sure if people are afraid or uncomfortable with the side effects taking these pills or medicine for whatever reason, I could understand it to some degree or that they are not especially interested in being amongst the first to get the vaccine. But to me it seems like a bit of gamble given that Covid kills and as mentioned earlier, around 1.8 billion people have been fully vaccinated, so if there were lots of problems with it, wouldn't the news be filled with these things?

Also side effects for covid vaccines or any vaccines for that matter, typical show themselves within a few weeks, and given that some people have been vaccinated for a lot longer than that and the news are still not filled with stories about problems. Seems to suggest that the covid vaccine is no different than what is expected from any vaccine, so being well informed about this, you would also know that? So waiting for CDC to come up with something, still can't be worse than the risk of dying from covid.

Also should you get covid, there are a lot of potential long term side effect as well, here is a description of them:
---------------------------------
Most people who have coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) recover completely within a few weeks. But some people — even those who had mild versions of the disease — continue to experience symptoms after their initial recovery.

These people sometimes describe themselves as "long haulers" and the conditions have been called post-COVID-19 syndrome or "long COVID-19." These health issues are sometimes called post-COVID-19 conditions. They're generally considered to be effects of COVID-19 that persist for more than four weeks after you've been diagnosed with the COVID-19 virus.

Older people and people with many serious medical conditions are the most likely to experience lingering COVID-19 symptoms, but even young, otherwise healthy people can feel unwell for weeks to months after infection. Common signs and symptoms that linger over time include:

• Fatigue
• Shortness of breath or difficulty breathing
• Cough
• Joint pain
• Chest pain
• Memory, concentration or sleep problems
• Muscle pain or headache
• Fast or pounding heartbeat
• Loss of smell or taste
• Depression or anxiety
• Fever
• Dizziness when you stand
• Worsened symptoms after physical or mental activities

Organ damage caused by COVID-19

Although COVID-19 is seen as a disease that primarily affects the lungs, it can damage many other organs as well. This organ damage may increase the risk of long-term health problems. Organs that may be affected by COVID-19 include:

• Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
• Lungs. The type of pneumonia often associated with COVID-19 can cause long-standing damage to the tiny air sacs (alveoli) in the lungs. The resulting scar tissue can lead to long-term breathing problems.
• Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. COVID-19 may also increase the risk of developing Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease.

Some adults and children experience multisystem inflammatory syndrome after they have had COVID-19. In this condition, some organs and tissues become severely inflamed.

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At least to me, comparing the long term effects of the vaccine, which seems to be none so far? to that of long term effects of having had covid, it seems like the better option is to get vaccinated to lower the chance of getting infected in the first place. Because these doesn't seem pleasant to me, at least. Especially the last section about organ damage.

And also CDC best advice against it, is to be vaccinated.

This is from there website: (COVID-19 Vaccination)

What You Need to Know

• COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective.
• Millions of people in the United States have received COVID-19 vaccines under the most intense safety monitoring in U.S. history.
• CDC recommends you get a COVID-19 vaccine as soon as possible.
• If you are fully vaccinated, you can resume activities that you did prior to the pandemic. Learn more about what you can do when you have been fully vaccinated.

-----------------------------------------

What would be an example of a reason?
We listed a whole lot of reasons.

Reading what I wrote above, I hope it makes sense why I don't really understand where these well informed information comes from, for not getting the vaccine?
because you refer to CDC, which advice you to do exactly the opposite of what you are doing, so the information surely doesn't come from them?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Nah, there's definitely some emotional barrier at play.

Maybe take a break and come back when you're less emotional

 

[Nimos]

What never ceases to amaze and shock me are people who make a deal and mark of pride they don't trust the media. But they are getting their nonsense from the media.

Agree, I can even understand that some people might distrust the media for whatever reason.

But what I fail to understand is how people manage to not think critical about the science or medical community, behind all this.

Lets for a second assume that the vaccine was all over the place and people were dying or having all sorts of issues with them. And still all the advice were to get the vaccine and them telling people to do it etc. Wouldn't you expect there to be lots of scientists and people that know about vaccines to warn people and step forward in the press and tell us, that we were being lied to and the vaccine is extremely dodgy and unsafe and they have, this, this and that evidence for it. And there would be a massive debate going on all over the world.
Yet we see nothing like that? There seems to be a pretty wide spread agreement that being vaccinated is safe and the way to do it, because that is how vaccines works.

And that part of no trust, I don't understand. It would be impossible to hide it, if the vaccines were dangerous, there would be creditable information flooding the news and internet about it.

Yet we have people that claim to get magnetic from the vaccine, which, if it were the case, would be freaking awesome , but also people being afraid of turning into something like zombies.

Scientists vs Magnetic people and those that fear they turn into zombies.

I mean, it shouldn't even be possible

 

[Mock Turtle]

I think this, and perhaps the book, are worth a look:

‘No one wanted to read’ his book on pandemic psychology – then Covid hit

"Psychological reactance has been an issue around any public health guidance, whether that’s increasing the intake of more fruit and vegetables, good dental hygiene or vaccinations and masks," Taylor said. “The you’re-not-the-boss-of-me kind of response is seen particularly in people raised in cultures that take pride in freedom and individualism.” He added: “The harder you try to push and persuade these psychologically reactive people, the more they are likely to push back because they perceive their freedoms are being threatened. While they may be a minority, they are also highly vocal, and so we see many different types of people joining in.” That in turn, leads to what psychologists term “motivated thinking”, otherwise fantasy-thinking in which Covid-19, or climate change, are seen as hoaxes so people can tell themselves positive stories that everything is going to be fine and their freedom is not threatened. What has often been depicted as conservative individualistic intransigence is in fact a stand-in for diverse groups comprising conspiracy theorists, white evangelicals, some historically traumatized communities of color, new-age believers in natural immunity and others who believe that vaccines are a con by big pharma to maximize profits. The list goes on. “Putting a foreign object in your body via a needle, from an evolutionary perspective, is contaminating yourself. You’re not, of course, but you can see how some people have developed views about what is pure and faithful,” Taylor says.

 

[Nimos]

I think this, and perhaps the book, are worth a look:

‘No one wanted to read’ his book on pandemic psychology – then Covid hit

"Psychological reactance has been an issue around any public health guidance, whether that’s increasing the intake of more fruit and vegetables, good dental hygiene or vaccinations and masks," Taylor said. “The you’re-not-the-boss-of-me kind of response is seen particularly in people raised in cultures that take pride in freedom and individualism.” He added: “The harder you try to push and persuade these psychologically reactive people, the more they are likely to push back because they perceive their freedoms are being threatened. While they may be a minority, they are also highly vocal, and so we see many different types of people joining in.” That in turn, leads to what psychologists term “motivated thinking”, otherwise fantasy-thinking in which Covid-19, or climate change, are seen as hoaxes so people can tell themselves positive stories that everything is going to be fine and their freedom is not threatened. What has often been depicted as conservative individualistic intransigence is in fact a stand-in for diverse groups comprising conspiracy theorists, white evangelicals, some historically traumatized communities of color, new-age believers in natural immunity and others who believe that vaccines are a con by big pharma to maximize profits. The list goes on. “Putting a foreign object in your body via a needle, from an evolutionary perspective, is contaminating yourself. You’re not, of course, but you can see how some people have developed views about what is pure and faithful,” Taylor says.

There is probably something like this going on, but again the vaccine is free and optional, so im not sure how that would interfere with peoples freedom. They have the option to freely choose this or not. Obviously they are being advised to do it, but its not like the police and medical service is breaking down doors and injecting people.

I honestly think that most of it, is due to lack of knowledge and a general mistrust in science.

A vaccine in its most basic understanding, is simply that you inject some weak virus/disease into your body, to trigger or learn the immune system about it, so it knows how to handle it in the future.

Its not a lot different than actually getting the virus/disease to begin with, the body is now simply prepared for it, compared to not being prepared. I mean everyone experience this every year, when they get a cold or something.

 

[Mock Turtle]

There is probably something like this going on, but again the vaccine is free and optional, so im not sure how that would interfere with peoples freedom. They have the option to freely choose this or not. Obviously they are being advised to do it, but its not like the police and medical service is breaking down doors and injecting people.

I honestly think that most of it, is due to lack of knowledge and a general mistrust in science.

A vaccine in its most basic understanding, is simply that you inject some weak virus/disease into your body, to trigger or learn the immune system about it, so it knows how to handle it in the future.

Its not a lot different than actually getting the virus/disease to begin with, the body is now simply prepared for it, compared to not being prepared. I mean everyone experience this every year, when they get a cold or something.

Well I suspect that there is more resistance in the USA than in most countries, and perhaps an indication of this is in the attitudes to firearms. My freedom to own such as opposed to how this affects others - just as in vaccinations - in that many will take the vaccinations in order to protect others as much as it protects them but many won't.

 

[Kenny]

Okay, weigh these pros and cons, compare and contrast them, and then sum up the proportions. There's simply no contest.

You know the kool-aid is potent when not even accumulating piles of dead children can snap people to their senses.

Yes... each person has to judge, compare, contrast, sup up the proportions and apparently there is some contest as people still have varying viewpoints.

 

[Nimos]

Well I suspect that there is more resistance in the USA than in most countries, and perhaps an indication of this is in the attitudes to firearms. My freedom to own such as opposed to how this affects others - just as in vaccinations - in that many will take the vaccinations in order to protect others as much as it protects them but many won't.

Yeah the US is a bit weird on that part, its like "Jante loven" in Denmark, which I guess is of similar nature, and are also some sort of unwritten social ruleset of how you ought to behave around others and how to think about one self. And I guess it sort of applies, a lot of people in Denmark, really don't like smartasses or people that flashes with how good they think they are or how much better they are etc.

Jante loven
The ten rules state:

1. You're not to think you are anything special.
2. You're not to think you are as good as we are.
3. You're not to think you are smarter than we are.
4. You're not to imagine yourself better than we are.
5. You're not to think you know more than we do.
6. You're not to think you are more important than we are.
7. You're not to think you are good at anything.
8. You're not to laugh at us.
9. You're not to think anyone cares about you.
10. You're not to think you can teach us anything.

 

[Left Coast]

Goodness gracious.
1. Here's what you said
Actually it does, because the very people providing you with the data, whose careers are dedicated to collecting, analyzing and interpreting that data, are telling you your analysis is flawed. So as a layperson that should give you some pause.

2. Here the source links in 73 I listed

COVID-19 Vaccination
COVID-19 Breakthrough Case Investigations and Reporting | CDC

3. You said my analysis is flawed... how so?

We both get the same info from the CDC.

Goodness gracious indeed.

If you read the info youre posting from the CDC, you'd see the evidence is overwhelming thar you should be vaccinated.

But you haven't been.

Thus there's a flaw in your thinking.

You're assuming rather than asking.

The point is people take into consideration complications of meds, treatments, vaccines in and of themselves.
The sub-point is of course they weigh facts, morals, their circumstance, and risk of catching COVID to make health related decisions

The only way you can rationally weigh risk is by considering the probabilities of various outcomes.

I didn't assume anything - your answer to my question is either yes or no. I gave you a reply to either answer.

Any question(s) that lets people descern whether a treatment, med, vaccine is best for their well-being, is it worth it, what's their health, what are the facts, things like that. It has nothing to do with the COVID argument but just generally thinking of one's health in regards to what treatments, meds, vaccines, and so forth people want to put in their bodies. Thousands of people dying doesn't invalidate the importance of people making health decisions for their well-being and others.

The last sentence makes no sense given the rest of your reply. The only way to rationally determine what the risks of a given action are (whether it's "worth it") is to look at the probabilities of what is likely to occur if one does or doesn't take the action. You can't rationally make that decision if you ignore people dying by the hundreds of thousands.

This is profoundly basic.

Of course not. Therefore I'm not going to fret about it.

Again, that's bizarre. Are you concerned about the well-being of high risk people around you? If the answer is yes, then you should fret at least a little about how your actions may affect them.

Again, this is basic. I don't know how else to explain these basic points to you.

It could be. Depends on if I put myself in a higher risk of catching COVID. For now, if I took the vaccine it would be "just because..." I rather it be because I am morally, factually, well-informed. Stats and facts don't influence me to take the vaccine it just gives me knowledge about it. It only is useful if I wanted to make a decision to take the vaccine then I can weigh the pros and cons based on BOTH sides. But since I am not, it's educational but nothing more than that.

If your decision to be vaccinated or not has nothing to do with the facts or statistics around COVID and the vaccine, then all I can say is it makes to me that you're not vaccinated. For those of us who use facts and statistics about the world to make our decisions about how to rationally navigate the world, the decision to be vaccinated is clear.

 

[Left Coast]

Yes... each person has to judge, compare, contrast, sup up the proportions and apparently there is some contest as people still have varying viewpoints.

Some people still think the world is flat, Ken. People believe all kinds of kooky things, and always will no matter how clear the evidence for something is.

The evidence for the efficacy and safety of vaccination is clear, if people want to be informed.

 

[Kenny]

Some people still think the world is flat, Ken. People believe all kinds of kooky things, and always will no matter how clear the evidence for something is.

The evidence for the efficacy and safety of vaccination is clear, if people want to be informed.

People are informed that the child in the womb is a baby... did that matter?

 

[Left Coast]

People are informed that the child in the womb is a baby... did that matter?

...that came out of left field.

I don't think derailing this thread into a debate about abortion will be productive. Did you have something relevant to say?

 

[Kenny]

...that came out of left field.

I don't think derailing this thread into a debate about abortion will be productive. Did you have something relevant to say?

Just using your standard of "flat earth" - which I thought was just as much as left field.

 

[Kenny]

...that came out of left field.

I don't think derailing this thread into a debate about abortion will be productive. Did you have something relevant to say?

I think most of the problem was poor and bad communication by "those intelligent people in the field" and the CDC

 

[Left Coast]

Just using your standard of "flat earth" - which I thought was just as much as left field.

My comparison was intended to be non-controversial, as I assumed you'd agree the Earth is round.

You do, right?

Your comparison was to a highly controversial, divisive topic...which muddies the water.

The point is that "people disagree" is not a rational reply when you're evaluating evidence. Uninformed people disagree about all kinds of things.

 

[metis]

The CDC and the NIH have had to adapt to new evidence with the covid and new situations on the ground, thus the message should change as new information comes in. This is still very much a learning process for all of us-- or at least it should be.

BTW, my wife & I have decided to go back on the masks in public because our age-- er, I mean our maturity-- is more extensive.

 

[Left Coast]

I think most of the problem was poor and bad communication by "those intelligent people in the field" and the CDC

Most of what problem?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you read the info youre posting from the CDC, you'd see the evidence is overwhelming thar you should be vaccinated.

The stats aren't scripture.

But is that evidence applicable for all people or like any evidence only applied to those appropriate?

Again, that's bizarre. Are you concerned about the well-being of high risk people around you? If the answer is yes, then you should fret at least a little about how your actions may affect them.

Again, this is basic. I don't know how else to explain these basic points to you.

I'm not influenced in fear from what CDC and experts tell me. They can say jump off the building it will save thousands and I'd still pause. What influences my emotions are things that happen in my immediate environment. People I am actually around, and so forth.

If your decision to be vaccinated or not has nothing to do with the facts or statistics around COVID and the vaccine, then all I can say is it makes to me that you're not vaccinated.

I never said it did not.

A lot of vaccinated run to get the vaccine out of fear and know near nothing about the details of the situation. It's the same possible ignorance on both sides from the same experts sources that lead to different actions.

 

[Left Coast]

The stats aren't scripture.

But is that evidence applicable for all people or like any evidence only applied to those appropriate?

The CDC's guidance to be vaccinated, driven by the data they supplied you, applies to the general public. Surely you know that.

I'm not influenced in fear from what CDC and experts tell me. They can say jump off the building it will save thousands and I'd still pause. What influences my emotions are things that happen in my immediate environment. People I am actually around, and so forth.

While that is understandable, I also hope you see that's not really rational, UA. Your personal experience is not exhaustive. You are not omniscient. Thus if you want to make rational decisions, it behooves you to look outside your personal experience at the experiences of others. And in fact, when you systematically gather and analyze the experiences of many other people to gain a general understanding of something...welcome to science!

A lot of vaccinated run to get the vaccine out of fear and know near nothing about the details of the situation. It's the same possible ignorance on both sides from the same exerts sources that lead to different actions.

People make right decisions for wrong reasons, that's true. But at the end of the day they still made the right decision. Which is preferable over making the wrong one.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The CDC's guidance to be vaccinated, driven by the data they supplied you, applies to the general public. Surely you know that.

For example, someone with little contact with people "should" be hold at the same scrutiny as those who are around people?

Just because CDC says you and I are at a risk of catching COVID that means we are both at the same level of risk that depends on where we live, who we are around, etc?

Do you consider how facts apply to some situations more than others?