Creationist Error #1: One can not believe Evolution and still remain devout in their faith.

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Guy Threepwood, evolution has nothing to do with atheism. Most Christians are "evolutionists" and most "evolutionists" are Christian. All this carrying on about tyrants has absolutely nothing to do with the point proposed: "you can believe in evolution and still remain devout in your faith".

 

[Bunyip]

Sure, ok - you assume a natural mechanism exists.

Nope, atheism makes no such assumption. You have confused atheism for science.

How is that not a positive claim still?

Well because atheism makes no such claim Guy.

Sure, you are playing about with the wording - but you are still making a positive assumption.

No, atheism does not make the assumption you are attributing to it.

a-naturalism on the other hand does not have a position on the origins of the universe, and therefore is neither making a claim nor bears a burden of proof. So sure - your position is to arbitrarily assume that this natural mechanism exists, whilst a-naturlaism has no position.

The burden of proof could remain yours.

Your not making sense Guy, atheism does not rule out the supernatural, it makes no such assumption - but you defined a-naturalism specifically as ruling out a natural explanation. Atheism rules nothing out.

 

[idea]

Does anyone here subscribe to panspermia? That no one did it, there is no beginning - that God is cleaning up a mess He did not make (while refusing to take anyone's free will away)....

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Nope, atheism makes no such assumption. You have confused atheism for science. Well because atheism makes no such claim Guy. No, atheism does not make the assumption you are attributing to it. Your not making sense Guy, atheism does not rule out the supernatural, it makes no such assumption - but you defined a-naturalism specifically as ruling out a natural explanation. Atheism rules nothing out.

it rejects naturalism as an explanation without evidence

just as you say " Claiming that an immaterial God did it is not an explanation."

atheism is the opposite of science, it's a faith which does not recognize itself, AKA blind faith

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Does anyone here subscribe to panspermia? That no one did it, there is no beginning - that God is cleaning up a mess He did not make (while refusing to take anyone's free will away)....

isn't panspermia related to life specifically?

 

[Bunyip]

it rejects naturalism as an explanation without evidence.

just as you say " Claiming that an immaterial God did it is not an explanation."

atheism is the opposite of science, it's a faith which does not recognize itself, AKA blind faith[/QUOTE]
A faith in what? That doesn't make sense. Atheism is making no claim.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

just as you say " Claiming that an immaterial God did it is not an explanation."

atheism is the opposite of science, it's a faith which does not recognize itself, AKA blind faith

A faith in what? That doesn't make sense. Atheism is making no claim.[/QUOTE]



All theists are a-naturalists, just as all a-theists are naturalists, it's just a very difficult position to defend at face value

 

[Bunyip]

A faith in what? That doesn't make sense. Atheism is making no claim.

All theists are a-naturalists, just as all a-theists are naturalists, it's just a very difficult position to defend at face value[/QUOTE]
But that is not true, atheism and naturalism are different propositions. I see that is what has confused you.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Guy, you're really ruining my fun as you are jumping so far ahead in the list of creationist errors, it's astounding.

Your crusade has wandered way off the topic of this thread: Is there a reason why you feel that you can not accept evolution and still remain devout in your faith? If so, I'd like to hear that reason, instead of carrying on about atheism, which is NOT the topic of this thread.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Guy Threepwood, evolution has nothing to do with atheism. Most Christians are "evolutionists" and most "evolutionists" are Christian. All this carrying on about tyrants has absolutely nothing to do with the point proposed: "you can believe in evolution and still remain devout in your faith".

You are right, I am derailing the thread a little with atheist tyrants..

But most people/Christians don't believe in the essence of evolution as taught in state schools- that it all hinged on an accidental process with no design, that's a fairly extreme minority position is it not?

 

[Bunyip]

You are right, I am derailing the thread a little with atheist tyrants..

But most people/Christians don't believe in the essence of evolution as taught in state schools- that it all hinged on an accidental process with no design, that's a fairly extreme minority position is it not?

As it happens most Christians accept evolution - and of course they know that it is not 'hinged on an accidental process' but on selection. It has been accepted by the bulk of Christians for decades.

 

[shawn001]

Pew Research poll in 2013 in the US.

DECEMBER 30, 2013
Public’s Views on Human Evolution

Public’s Views on Human Evolution | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

 

[Guy Threepwood]

As it happens most Christians accept evolution - and of course they know that it is not 'hinged on an accidental process' but on selection. It has been accepted by the bulk of Christians for decades.

perhaps accept 'evolution' as guided by God as opposed to random mutation- but belief in fundamentalist (nature only) evolution is <20% in the US entire population, higher in Australia but still a minority I believe

Evolution, Creationism, Intelligent Design | Gallup Historical Trends

 

[Bunyip]

perhaps accept 'evolution' as guided by God as opposed to random mutation- but belief in fundamentalist (nature only) evolution is <20% in the US entire population, higher in Australia but still a minority I believe

Evolution, Creationism, Intelligent Design | Gallup Historical Trends

Actually it is well over half even in the US. Not that there is any such thing as fundamentalist evolution. Worldwide the proportion is far higher. Half of all Christians for example are Catholic and the Catholic Church accepted evolution long ago. As did many other sects.
Within scientists it is about 99.7%, and of course those are the opinions that count - what the average housewife believes is hardly significant. A similar proportion of Americans believe in alien abduction - popular beliefs are not relevant.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

You are right, I am derailing the thread a little with atheist tyrants..

But most people/Christians don't believe in the essence of evolution as taught in state schools- that it all hinged on an accidental process with no design, that's a fairly extreme minority position is it not?

First, thank you for helping us get back on topic.

"Randomness" does not necessarily denote "accident". There are only so many genetic mutations that can create living offspring, there are only so many genetic mutations that are possible with a given genetic makeup, and there are only so many genetic mutations that can be successful in a given environment. Serious geneticists who have studied the genetic links for Evolution scoff at the use of the word "accident". The reason that they do, I believe, is more along the lines of the way in which it is delivered by the deniers: like nature said, "Oops, I messed up, but it was a weird and happy accident!" But the reality is, genetic drift happens and genetic drift is supposed to happen, and genetic drift offers more genetic diversity within a population, helping to aid that species in its survival -- and fostering evolution. But I suppose that when we remove the semantics, it's fair to say that no, this is not a minority position.

"Design"? Well, evolution does not have a goal in mind. This is misrepresented even by science speakers; so words like " ... we evolved an opposable thumb so that we could use tools" are inaccurate and confusing to everyone involved. Evolution does not have a goal; thus it is more accurate to say, "we evolved an opposable thumb. This enabled us to use tools, which gave us the survival advantage we needed". But I digress: If "design" means to you that there was a goal in mind; that things in evolution happen for a reason; then yes, this is a minority position.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

perhaps accept 'evolution' as guided by God as opposed to random mutation- but belief in fundamentalist (nature only) evolution is <20% in the US entire population, higher in Australia but still a minority I believe

Evolution, Creationism, Intelligent Design | Gallup Historical Trends

Assuming that these stats are accurate, then we can say that at least 20% of Christians see no conflict between ToE and their spiritual beliefs; though I suspect that these statistics are quite low.

 

[LuisDantas]

You still have North Korea I suppose, at least for the moment..

We "have it"? I must have missed the military call to arms.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Actually it is well over half even in the US. Not that there is any such thing as fundamentalist evolution. Worldwide the proportion is far higher. Half of all Christians for example are Catholic and the Catholic Church accepted evolution long ago. As did many other sects.
Within scientists it is about 99.7%, and of course those are the opinions that count - what the average housewife believes is hardly significant. A similar proportion of Americans believe in alien abduction - popular beliefs are not relevant.

As in the link, it's 19%- which includes atheists, and scientists. We went over this with Luis from Brazil where belief in fundamentalist evolution is 8%

99.7% of paranormal investigators believe in ghosts, and they should know they're the experts right? Remember that scientists also believed in canals on Mars, static universes and global warming- don't make me quote Mark Twain again!

 

[LuisDantas]

You are right, I am derailing the thread a little with atheist tyrants..

But most people/Christians don't believe in the essence of evolution as taught in state schools- that it all hinged on an accidental process with no design, that's a fairly extreme minority position is it not?

Actually, it is not, nor would it even matter if it were. It is still what the actual facts show.

The minority and extreme position, nevertheless, is so-called creationism, but more accurately just denial of evolution out of proud and/or afraid dogma. Most people worldwide are wise enough not to make enemies out of biological facts.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

We "have it"? I must have missed the military call to arms.

Still under atheist control is it not?