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Critic on Islam

AhmadSyahir

Active Member
Sigh,thats good,you don't kill them straight away,i am humbled by such kindness,if they insist then shouldn't it be "you to your religion and me to mine",maybe they convert for freedom of concience.

IMO Islam has contradictions like "there is no compulsion in religion" and yet we know people are harshly dealt with for leaving Islam,it is good to free a Slave yet Slavery is alive and well in Islam,there are more but i guess i've been down this road before.

Teenage marriage is not a problem. 20 years ago, many people in my country get married when they are teenager.

Banu Qurayza betrayed Islam and has violate the Constitution of Medina. Do you know who judge them?? The person who was chosen by Banu Qurayza itself. Muslim just return from a big war and wounded badly. Why do you think the muslim attack the Banu Qurayza right after the war?

I know. It sounds cruel to kill apostates. But, those who convert from Islam don't want to be abide by it's law which mean they want to bring damage and chaos. For example, many people think that public execution is cruel. What make it different. If someone sentenced to death, they will still die. It is only the matter of place; Indoor or outdoor. People will realize what will they face if they break the law. Again, it's only indoor and outdoor.

About slavery, I'm researching in the subject. Slavery have been on this world
thousands years ago. When religion appear on this world, slavery have been there. It will take me some times. I can't provide anything for now untill further study.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Teenage marriage is not a problem. 20 years ago, many people in my country get married when they are teenager.

6 years old isn't a teenager

Banu Qurayza betrayed Islam and has violate the Constitution of Medina. Do you know who judge them?? The person who was chosen by Banu Qurayza itself. Muslim just return from a big war and wounded badly. Why do you think the muslim attack the Banu Qurayza right after the war?

Ok so they chopped the heads off of 8 to 900 Jews who had surrendered and chose their own Judge,they then sold the Women and Children into Slavery,booty was a big deal those days.

I know. It sounds cruel to kill apostates. But, those who convert from Islam don't want to be abide by it's law which mean they want to bring damage and chaos. For example, many people think that public execution is cruel. What make it different. If someone sentenced to death, they will still die. It is only the matter of place; Indoor or outdoor. People will realize what will they face if they break the law. Again, it's only indoor and outdoor.

Ok i understand doing that in the context of the time but now its unexceptable,now we should understand what freedom of conscience is.

About slavery, I'm researching in the subject. Slavery have been on this world
thousands years ago. When religion appear on this world, slavery have been there. It will take me some times. I can't provide anything for now untill further study.

Most nations of the world has had a history of Slavery at some time in their history,i really don't think you need to be a genius to know its a wrong and dispicable practice now.
 

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Ahmad, it's the treatment to give to Shia's and anyone else, Muslim or otherwise, who hinder Islamic societies from progressing. They're so obsessed with how to punish people and force them to see and do everything "their" way, or be punished or killed. What kind of belief is that? I welcome anyone to joins Islam because they have found it to be the journey that fits them, not because they'll be hung if they don't (anymore).

My criticism isn't about Islam, but it is about the fringe groups who continue to destroy it from within, and who refuse to accept that Islam, like all other faiths, must adjust to modern times , or we will find ourselves alone and behind.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Many muslim countries are currently under corrupt government. Even my own country ruled by a bunch of people who disobey their religion and claim that the country accept Islam as the official religion. We are trying to free ourselves from this kind of government. Sometimes it can't be done without bloodshed. Libya for example, the government itself kill its own people to continue ruling the country. Islam is now recovering from this kind of government and some have manage to do so.

Israel is another story. They came to Palastine and kill innocent people. And I don't think that UN can't do anything because Israel is the most powerful in military force today.
Israel is indeed another story. it is a story of success and a multi-party platform in a sea of dictatorships.
Israeli pluralism and democracy has been burning in the Arab and Muslim side for a while now. it has blinded so many Muslims, that while millions of people have been brutally killed in Muslim against Muslim atrocities, turmoil and war only in previous decades, Israel is still their anathema.
 

ohhcuppycakee

Active Member
If you don't know, you better don't talk about Shia. They hate the companions of Muhammad S.A.W and his wife Aisha R.A. They glorify Abu Lu'lu'ah and build a tomb for him. Abu Lu'lu'ah is the one who killed Umar R.A. They claim that all of their imam is ma'soom (clean from mistakes and sin). Some of them will celebrate the death of Umar R.A. When I say curse, they really curse Aisha, Abu Bkr and Umar R.A.

See this video:

[youtube]vvK_zRsSEqc[/youtube]
Solat Syiah.flv - YouTube

It is written in Malay but the video will show you that they curse Aisha and Muhammad S.A.W.'s companion.

[youtube]ehobt0vg4jU[/youtube]
Tokoh Syiah diperangkap Ulama' Ahli Sunnah! Lawak! - YouTube

The second video is a debate of Sunni vs Shia. It is also written in Malay but it have the English subtitle.

Muslim is in struggle with corrupt government. Khalifah play a great role on prospering a country.

We need to believe in two thing: Al-Quran and Sunnah. There's many kind of hadith. If many Ulama' agree, there must be a reason. Hadith was sort according to it's narrator and the hadith narrated. Some hadith are chained and if it not differ from the first one, it will be accepted. If many people narrated a same hadith, how can it be wrong.

Just because some do that doesn't mean all of them do that. Khamanei ruled it is forbidden it insult any of the sabaha or the wives of the Prophet (SAWS).
You don't even know any actual Shi'a people yourself. The media likes to distort things, you should know that by now. These people who act like the Sunni and Shi'a are irreconcilable are only trying to cause fitnah in the Ummah! And there are people with extreme views on both sides out there. Take the Sunni who believe Hussian ibn Ali was wrong to stand up to Yazid, a tyrant.
[youtube]aRYdg0ch15g[/youtube]
Nasrallah on Cursing Sahaba [Eng] -
And no, Shi'a people in general do not revere Abu Lu'lu'ah, but many Iranians view him as a national Persian hero as he resisted the Arab invasion of Persia.

Ahadith most certainly cannot be taken as infallible though, you know that. If it was, there would not be so many contradictions in it then. Only al Qur'an is the absolute word of Almighty Allah (SWT). Do you not agree that only Qur'an is 100% perfect?

If you want to know what Shi'a people ACTUALLY believe, I suggest you go to these sites:
Answering-Ansar.org :: Home
In A Nutshell - Fact Sheets About Islam and Shi'ism
 

AhmadSyahir

Active Member
Just because some do that doesn't mean all of them do that. Khamanei ruled it is forbidden it insult any of the sabaha or the wives of the Prophet (SAWS).
You don't even know any actual Shi'a people yourself. The media likes to distort things, you should know that by now. These people who act like the Sunni and Shi'a are irreconcilable are only trying to cause fitnah in the Ummah! And there are people with extreme views on both sides out there. Take the Sunni who believe Hussian ibn Ali was wrong to stand up to Yazid, a tyrant.
[youtube]aRYdg0ch15g[/youtube]
Nasrallah on Cursing Sahaba [Eng] -
And no, Shi'a people in general do not revere Abu Lu'lu'ah, but many Iranians view him as a national Persian hero as he resisted the Arab invasion of Persia.

Ahadith most certainly cannot be taken as infallible though, you know that. If it was, there would not be so many contradictions in it then. Only al Qur'an is the absolute word of Almighty Allah (SWT). Do you not agree that only Qur'an is 100% perfect?

If you want to know what Shi'a people ACTUALLY believe, I suggest you go to these sites:
Answering-Ansar.org :: Home
In A Nutshell - Fact Sheets About Islam and Shi'ism

Why do you think that Sunni and Shia having a long fight against each other for centuries? Try to search 'Aisha' on the Google. Click on Wikipidea and try to look at Shia view on Aisha. I'm not lying and I told you the truth. Try to look for Muawiyah in Google. Click the wikipidea and look for Shia's view on one him. Click on all four of the Rashidun Caliphate in the wikipedia and look for Shia's view. I give you a short form of the view:" Abu Bakr and Umar conspired to take over power in the Muslim nation after Muhammad's death".

I'm not hating Shia but they really against muslim. Why should Sunni and Shia differ if they're in same belief? If you have watch the video that I post recently, the Shia don't even show any Angry impression when one of the Shia in the first video insult Aisha R.A. But when Sunni's Ulama' play a small trick by trying to verify the news that his Imam's wife practise mut'ah, he is very offended. The Sunni's Ulama' just try to verify, but then the Shia got really offended. He don't even feel offended when Aisha R.A. insulted.

If there's no different between Shia and Sunni why should they use a different name. In Sunni, there's four biggest Madhhab: Maliki,Hanafi,Shafi'e and Hanbali.
The different of hand position in Solah is when they follow different Madhhab not Shia. How can they don't hate Rasulullah's companion if they believed that Abu Bakr and Umar conspired to take over muslim's nation after Muhammad. I have no intention in hating Shia but I just describe their belief that is really against the Sunnah of Rasulullah.

Lastly, if Shia claim that they don't hate all the companion, they're Sunni not Shia. Shia believe that all of their Imam is ma'soom (clean from mistakes and sins). But, as you already know, the only one that ma'soom is Nabi and Rasul. This mean that they deny Quran.
 
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AhmadSyahir

Active Member
Most nations of the world has had a history of Slavery at some time in their history,i really don't think you need to be a genius to know its a wrong and dispicable practice now.

Can't you read me. I told you Aisha was not 6 years old. Aisha engaged to a non-muslim(before Islam) when she was 6 years old. Islam came some years later. It's weird that she can engaged to Muhammad S.A.W when she was 7. And many other reasons that not agree in the hadith. She has joined a war where only 15 years old person and above allowed to join.

Banu Qurayza has betrayed not only the muslim but every single life in Medina. If muslim lost in the battle, every single life in Medina will be dead. It's 3000 vs. 10000. Banu Qurayza is judged by the person that agreed by both muslim and the jew. Though, this matter should be researched further. I will post anything that is relevent to answer to your critics sooner or later.

About slavery, this is my view:
Centuries ago, slavery is regular. You know that Islam encourage it's follower to free slave but Islam allow it. This mean it allow slavery(for reasons) but not encouraging it. Slave is bought, not freely taken(except for war captives). They can reedem for their freedom from their master. It's fair for both the slave and his master. Slave is also needed to be treated like family not slave. They only called slave because they are not free but they must be treated like a free man. The total slaves freed by his household and friend is 39,237 slaves. Sunnah is highly suggested to follow by muslim. Lastly,we will realize that slavery will be less in number. Allowing slavery but encourage to release slave will mean discouraging slavery. It's like mathematic: + plus - equal to negative. This reducing the number of slavery slowly and slavery will disappear before we know it. And that is my view.

Enemy war captives is to be traded with muslim captive. They can also traded for food and something else.

There's many more that I don't answer about slavery in this passage but Insya'allah I will answer it sooner or later. I need to think deeply in the matter.

Remember, there is no compulsion in religion. Muhammad S.A.W don't force both of the jewish tribe in Medina to belief in Islam. Muhammad S.A.W came to Medina after muslim was invited by the people of Medina to put an end to the dispute between all four tribes in Medina. If one convert from non-muslim into a muslim by his own will, what is the point on being an apostate. People will ask questions and will not convert untill it's answered.

This is what I see in my country: Mainly, people that change their religion from Islam to other religion is 1.not well-mannered person. 2. Lack of religious education.

Description:
1. They like to commit adultery, consume alcohol and many other bad lifestyle that is forbidden in Islam. They don't like and don't want to abide by Islamic rule. If this thing let to happen, many social problem will arise. Don't look the dead penalty as a threat but instead, we should see the good side of it. Like alcohol, Islam forbid to consume it but that doesn't mean it's useless. It can be applied to our body part for the sake of treatement. *(Correct me if I'm wrong O Muslim).
2. This people were not thought well about religion. I don't blame them because it's their parents fault. If we give them some time to think and answering their doubt(event after they have convert), it will help them.

This is all my opinion on your critics. No hard feeling okay?:) I just want to know what others think of my religion and try my best to answer it.
 

AhmadSyahir

Active Member
Israel is indeed another story. it is a story of success and a multi-party platform in a sea of dictatorships.
Israeli pluralism and democracy has been burning in the Arab and Muslim side for a while now. it has blinded so many Muslims, that while millions of people have been brutally killed in Muslim against Muslim atrocities, turmoil and war only in previous decades, Israel is still their anathema.

Yes. Israel is indeed very success. They have dominate the world economy.
You always quoted 'Muslim vs Muslim". I don't know what that mean but I believe there's no such thing.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Yes. Israel is indeed very success. They have dominate the world economy.
You always quoted 'Muslim vs Muslim". I don't know what that mean but I believe there's no such thing.
So dozens of wars between Muslim nations, dozens of wars between Muslim factions, are something you simply never heard about?
the hundreds of thousands killed in Sudan and hundreds of thousands more refugees because of an inter-Muslim conflict has simply went below your radar?
the hundreds of thousands or even million and more killed in the Iran-Iraq war is something you never heard about?
the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from Sunni gulf states has never happened?
even know, when conflict rages in Libya and North Africa, in Egypt and Syria you think its appropriate to talk about Israel.
 

AhmadSyahir

Active Member
So dozens of wars between Muslim nations, dozens of wars between Muslim factions, are something you simply never heard about?
the hundreds of thousands killed in Sudan and hundreds of thousands more refugees because of an inter-Muslim conflict has simply went below your radar?
the hundreds of thousands or even million and more killed in the Iran-Iraq war is something you never heard about?
the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from Sunni gulf states has never happened?
even know, when conflict rages in Libya and North Africa, in Egypt and Syria you think its appropriate to talk about Israel.

So, this is "muslim vs muslim". First, don't put Shia's country. They just simply Shia. I heard everyday the "muslim vs muslim". Sometimes it's not muslim vs muslim but it's muslim vs munafik (pretend to be muslim). I told you muslim is ruled by corrupt people. The ruler of Libya, Muammar Gadhaffi for example has killed their own people. This is not muslim vs muslim that we talk about. The current government of muslim is not practising the real Islam. They just pretend to do so. I want to ask you, did the government or the people that won in the war between the people of Libya and the cruel ruler, Muammar Gadhaffi??

This is my view: Islam is starting to rise. Do not get offended. This is only my observation on the chaos in Arab country. I heard a news that people destroying the building of Israel embassy in Egypt. I really think that this is a point of Islamic world reformation. It occurs in my country too. We're going to have the biggest election in history of Malaysia. My country have been ruled by the same political party for almost 5 decades. Doesn't that sound familiar??
Same goes to Egypt with their Hosni Mubarak. Mubarak has ruled Egypt for almost 30 years (if i'm not mistaken). Islam have been under this dictatorship for decades. Again, this is only my observation. No hard feeling okay?:)
Tell me your view.
 

ohhcuppycakee

Active Member
Why do you think that Sunni and Shia having a long fight against each other for centuries? Try to search 'Aisha' on the Google. Click on Wikipidea and try to look at Shia view on Aisha. I'm not lying and I told you the truth. Try to look for Muawiyah in Google. Click the wikipidea and look for Shia's view on one him. Click on all four of the Rashidun Caliphate in the wikipedia and look for Shia's view. I give you a short form of the view:" Abu Bakr and Umar conspired to take over power in the Muslim nation after Muhammad's death".

I'm not hating Shia but they really against muslim. Why should Sunni and Shia differ if they're in same belief? If you have watch the video that I post recently, the Shia don't even show any Angry impression when one of the Shia in the first video insult Aisha R.A. But when Sunni's Ulama' play a small trick by trying to verify the news that his Imam's wife practise mut'ah, he is very offended. The Sunni's Ulama' just try to verify, but then the Shia got really offended. He don't even feel offended when Aisha R.A. insulted.

If there's no different between Shia and Sunni why should they use a different name. In Sunni, there's four biggest Madhhab: Maliki,Hanafi,Shafi'e and Hanbali.
The different of hand position in Solah is when they follow different Madhhab not Shia. How can they don't hate Rasulullah's companion if they believed that Abu Bakr and Umar conspired to take over muslim's nation after Muhammad. I have no intention in hating Shia but I just describe their belief that is really against the Sunnah of Rasulullah.

Lastly, if Shia claim that they don't hate all the companion, they're Sunni not Shia. Shia believe that all of their Imam is ma'soom (clean from mistakes and sins). But, as you already know, the only one that ma'soom is Nabi and Rasul. This mean that they deny Quran.

The Sunni and Shi'a were not always so divided. Proof of this is that there are Shi'a narrators in Sahih Bukhari. Look it up. Second of all, Mu'awiyah, really? He's not that great of a guy according to many Sunnis as well. There is a reason he isn't considered a 'rightly guided caliph.' And I have a challenge for you, can you find this phrase ' four rightly guided caliphs' in Qur'an or ahadith? It seems like you really think the sahaba are sinless (ma'soom as you put it)? You don't think they EVER made a mistake...? Are the sahaba perfect like Nabi (SAWS)? Do you think it was right for Aisha to lead forces in Battle of Bassorah against Ali...? Muslim lives were lost, and for what? Do you think it was right for Abu Bakr to withhold Fatima's inheritance? The sabaha were not perfect and saying so does not all the sudden make you a non-Muslim, but also doesn't mean you should curse them.

The reason Shi'a believe Ahlul Bait is purified of sin is because of this in al Qur'an:
Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O' People of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you with a perfect purification." (Qur'an 33:33)
 
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beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So, this is "muslim vs muslim". First, don't put Shia's country. They just simply Shia. I heard everyday the "muslim vs muslim". Sometimes it's not muslim vs muslim but it's muslim vs munafik (pretend to be muslim). I told you muslim is ruled by corrupt people. The ruler of Libya, Muammar Gadhaffi for example has killed their own people. This is not muslim vs muslim that we talk about. The current government of muslim is not practising the real Islam. They just pretend to do so. I want to ask you, did the government or the people that won in the war between the people of Libya and the cruel ruler, Muammar Gadhaffi??

This is my view: Islam is starting to rise. Do not get offended. This is only my observation on the chaos in Arab country. I heard a news that people destroying the building of Israel embassy in Egypt. I really think that this is a point of Islamic world reformation. It occurs in my country too. We're going to have the biggest election in history of Malaysia. My country have been ruled by the same political party for almost 5 decades. Doesn't that sound familiar??
Same goes to Egypt with their Hosni Mubarak. Mubarak has ruled Egypt for almost 30 years (if i'm not mistaken). Islam have been under this dictatorship for decades. Again, this is only my observation. No hard feeling okay?:)
Tell me your view.

What is your obsession with Shias? I know some myself, and I've never once heard them bash Ayesha, the Companions, or anyone else for that matter. :shrug:

When are we, as Muslims, going to stop being so divisive and insistent that we all agree on everything? I may not agree with some beliefs of Shias, but to call them enemies of Islam? Wow.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
So, this is "muslim vs muslim". First, don't put Shia's country. They just simply Shia.
Classical example of inter-Muslim strife. as always you only illustrate my point.
I heard everyday the "muslim vs muslim". Sometimes it's not muslim vs muslim but it's muslim vs munafik (pretend to be muslim). I told you muslim is ruled by corrupt people. The ruler of Libya, Muammar Gadhaffi for example has killed their own people. This is not muslim vs muslim that we talk about. The current government of muslim is not practising the real Islam. They just pretend to do so. I want to ask you, did the government or the people that won in the war between the people of Libya and the cruel ruler, Muammar Gadhaffi??
Inside conflicts are usually characterised by calling the others unbelievers, dissidents, or in your case 'not true Muslims'.
this is what inter-conflict is usually about.

This is my view: Islam is starting to rise. Do not get offended. This is only my observation on the chaos in Arab country. I heard a news that people destroying the building of Israel embassy in Egypt. I really think that this is a point of Islamic world reformation. It occurs in my country too. We're going to have the biggest election in history of Malaysia. My country have been ruled by the same political party for almost 5 decades. Doesn't that sound familiar??
Same goes to Egypt with their Hosni Mubarak. Mubarak has ruled Egypt for almost 30 years (if i'm not mistaken). Islam have been under this dictatorship for decades. Again, this is only my observation. No hard feeling okay?:)
Tell me your view.
I don't think you realize just how familiar it is. revolutions are nothing new in the Arab world, nations such as Egypt and Syria already had several of them in the last decades.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Can't you read me. I told you Aisha was not 6 years old. Aisha engaged to a non-muslim(before Islam) when she was 6 years old. Islam came some years later. It's weird that she can engaged to Muhammad S.A.W when she was 7. And many other reasons that not agree in the hadith. She has joined a war where only 15 years old person and above allowed to join.

I've heard that argument before and really its immaterial because a lot of Musims do believe it and it set a precedent for them to emulate their Prophet.

Banu Qurayza has betrayed not only the muslim but every single life in Medina. If muslim lost in the battle, every single life in Medina will be dead. It's 3000 vs. 10000. Banu Qurayza is judged by the person that agreed by both muslim and the jew. Though, this matter should be researched further. I will post anything that is relevent to answer to your critics sooner or later.

Like i said,murder and taking Slaves in one hit,Muhammed and Islam were not the only army to commit these type of acts back in the 7th century but that doesn't excuse people behaving as if they were in the 7th century now ie having Slaves.

slavery, this is my view:
Centuries ago, slavery is regular. You know that Islam encourage it's follower to free slave but Islam allow it. This mean it allow slavery(for reasons) but not encouraging it. Slave is bought, not freely taken(except for war captives). They can reedem for their freedom from their master. It's fair for both the slave and his master. Slave is also needed to be treated like family not slave. They only called slave because they are not free but they must be treated like a free man. The total slaves freed by his household and friend is 39,237 slaves. Sunnah is highly suggested to follow by muslim. Lastly,we will realize that slavery will be less in number. Allowing slavery but encourage to release slave will mean discouraging slavery. It's like mathematic: + plus - equal to negative. This reducing the number of slavery slowly and slavery will disappear before we know it. And that is my view.

No need to reduce Slavery slowly,its wrong and should stop immediately.

Enemy war captives is to be traded with muslim captive. They can also traded for food and something else.

Like a Bugatti Veyron? i doubt it,maybe half a Goat then.


There's many more that I don't answer about slavery in this passage but Insya'allah I will answer it sooner or later. I need to think deeply in the matter.

No deep thought required,SLAVERY IS WRONG!!!

Remember, there is no compulsion in religion. Muhammad S.A.W don't force both of the jewish tribe in Medina to belief in Islam. Muhammad S.A.W came to Medina after muslim was invited by the people of Medina to put an end to the dispute between all four tribes in Medina. If one convert from non-muslim into a muslim by his own will, what is the point on being an apostate. People will ask questions and will not convert untill it's answered.

There is compulsion in religion such as yours,if you wish to leave Islam but are scared to because of the punishment prescribed by certain Shariah law judgments you are going to die unless you reconsider,at the very least you are going to the fire.

This is what I see in my country: Mainly, people that change their religion from Islam to other religion is 1.not well-mannered person. 2. Lack of religious education.

Lol,do you really think manners and education are reliant on your religion

Description:
1. They like to commit adultery, consume alcohol and many other bad lifestyle that is forbidden in Islam. They don't like and don't want to abide by Islamic rule. If this thing let to happen, many social problem will arise. Don't look the dead penalty as a threat but instead, we should see the good side of it. Like alcohol, Islam forbid to consume it but that doesn't mean it's useless. It can be applied to our body part for the sake of treatement. *(Correct me if I'm wrong O Muslim).

Many people commit adultery religious or not,whatever our belief or non belief we all share Human nature,the death penalty for premeditated murder i can deal with but killing someone for adultery or apostacy is despicable IMO.

2. This people were not thought well about religion. I don't blame them because it's their parents fault. If we give them some time to think and answering their doubt(event after they have convert), it will help them.

Surely some people just have a mind of their own don't they,whatever their Parents taught them about a religion

This is all my opinion on your critics. No hard feeling okay?:) I just want to know what others think of my religion and try my best to answer it.

No hard feeling at all,its good to hear your opinion on your religion whether i agree with it or not,thats what this place is for.
 

AhmadSyahir

Active Member
The Sunni and Shi'a were not always so divided. Proof of this is that there are Shi'a narrators in Sahih Bukhari. Look it up. Second of all, Mu'awiyah, really? He's not that great of a guy according to many Sunnis as well. There is a reason he isn't considered a 'rightly guided caliph.' And I have a challenge for you, can you find this phrase ' four rightly guided caliphs' in Qur'an or ahadith? It seems like you really think the sahaba are sinless (ma'soom as you put it)? You don't think they EVER made a mistake...? Are the sahaba perfect like Nabi (SAWS)? Do you think it was right for Aisha to lead forces in Battle of Bassorah against Ali...? Muslim lives were lost, and for what? Do you think it was right for Abu Bakr to withhold Fatima's inheritance? The sabaha were not perfect and saying so does not all the sudden make you a non-Muslim, but also doesn't mean you should curse them.

The reason Shi'a believe Ahlul Bait is purified of sin is because of this in al Qur'an:
Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O' People of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you with a perfect purification." (Qur'an 33:33)

First of all, I don't say that the sahaba is ma'soom.

I don't glorify the sahaba and I do respect sahaba. But I don't accuse them of conspiring. Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali is promised with paradise. Do you know why Aisha and some muslim that promised with paradise is against Ali?(I don't blame Ali)

Uthman bin Affan was murdered. Aisha, Muawiyah and some sahaba want Ali( fourth caliph) bring the murderer to the face of Justice(Qisas). But for some reason( I don't know, but if you know you can inform me), Ali don't. That's it.

Sahaba is trusted. If shia accuse them as corrupted, you can't never find hadith that is reliable. Hadith is sort according to 10 companion of Rasulullah that promised with paradise.

Muawiyah:
1.Shia's view: The Shi'a view Muawiyah as a tyrant, usurper and murderer (Wikipidea)
2.Sunni: Many Sunni Muslim historians view Muawiyah as a companion of Muhammad, and hence worthy of respect for this reason. (Wikipedia)

We don't know what exactly happened. Only Allah know the best.

About Ahlul bait:
If the verse of Sura "تطهير 'means the Ahlul Bayt infallible, then it means all the friends, but all Muslims are infallible, for Allah says:
"But Allah wanted to cleanse you, and execute benevolence to you" (al-Maidah: 6)
The verse in Surah Al-Maidah is clearly addressed to all Muslims because it begins with the verse (O those who believe). The association of this verse is also clear that charities in this verse Allah commands Muslims to be purified when to pray. Thus the verse: "He wanted to purify" means: should you be purified so that you are clean, because God love you and are pleased to be clean. *tell me if there's any translation mistake
 

AhmadSyahir

Active Member
Classical example of inter-Muslim strife. as always you only illustrate my point.

Inside conflicts are usually characterised by calling the others unbelievers, dissidents, or in your case 'not true Muslims'.
this is what inter-conflict is usually about.


I don't think you realize just how familiar it is. revolutions are nothing new in the Arab world, nations such as Egypt and Syria already had several of them in the last decades.

Other people will think that I try to runaway from your question by telling you that they're not muslim. I don't blame anyone. Indeed, this is a discussion.

Now tell me. How can they represent muslim if they don't act according to Al-Quran and Sunnah? If they claim that they are muslim but not accepting anything according to religion and done everything their way. How can they represent muslim if they don't believe in it? Don't take this as and excuse from me to dismiss the chaos in Arab state from our discussion but instead you should take this as a point.

List me all the Egypt and Syria revolution.
Just for your information, this is rally in my country and I hope political reformation will occur after election this year:
1.Bersih 2.0 rally - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2.2007 Bersih rally - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Now tell me. How can they represent muslim if they don't act according to Al-Quran and Sunnah? If they claim that they are muslim but not accepting anything according to religion and done everything their way. How can they represent muslim if they don't believe in it? Don't take this as and excuse from me to dismiss the chaos in Arab state from our discussion but instead you should take this as a point.
It is an excuse. and I've heard it a million times before. you've repeatedly said in this thread that Shia are not Muslim. Shia Islam is the second largest sect of Islam. and that tells us a lot about inner tensions in Islam, when so many Sunnis have been telling us that.


List me all the Egypt and Syria revolution.
Egypt:

1952
1953 Nasser takes over presidency
1977 'Bread riots'. spontaneous uprising by hundreds of thousands of lower class people which effected every major city
2011 revolution

Syria:

1949 coup d'état by Col. Husni al-Za'im
1949 by Col. Sami al-Hinnawi, who was himself quickly deposed by Col. Adib Shishakli
1951,Shishakli launched a second overthrow
1954 President Shishakli was himself overthrown
1961 military overthrow led by Abd al-Karim al-Nahlawi
1963 coup, Ba'ath party comes to power
1966 a group of army officers carried out a successful, intra-party overthrow
1970 Hafez al-Assad takes over and rules until he dies in 2000, living the rule to his son Bashar al-Assad
2011 uprising against Bashar al-Asad
 

AhmadSyahir

Active Member
What is your obsession with Shias? I know some myself, and I've never once heard them bash Ayesha, the Companions, or anyone else for that matter. :shrug:

When are we, as Muslims, going to stop being so divisive and insistent that we all agree on everything? I may not agree with some beliefs of Shias, but to call them enemies of Islam? Wow.

I'm not extremist my brother. I'm not trying to make you or everyone to hate them. But their accusation on the sahaba is unacceptable for muslim.
 

ohhcuppycakee

Active Member
First of all, I don't say that the sahaba is ma'soom.

I don't glorify the sahaba and I do respect sahaba. But I don't accuse them of conspiring. Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali is promised with paradise. Do you know why Aisha and some muslim that promised with paradise is against Ali?(I don't blame Ali)

Uthman bin Affan was murdered. Aisha, Muawiyah and some sahaba want Ali( fourth caliph) bring the murderer to the face of Justice(Qisas). But for some reason( I don't know, but if you know you can inform me), Ali don't. That's it.

Sahaba is trusted. If shia accuse them as corrupted, you can't never find hadith that is reliable. Hadith is sort according to 10 companion of Rasulullah that promised with paradise.

Muawiyah:
1.Shia's view: The Shi'a view Muawiyah as a tyrant, usurper and murderer (Wikipidea)
2.Sunni: Many Sunni Muslim historians view Muawiyah as a companion of Muhammad, and hence worthy of respect for this reason. (Wikipedia)

We don't know what exactly happened. Only Allah know the best.

About Ahlul bait:
If the verse of Sura "تطهير 'means the Ahlul Bayt infallible, then it means all the friends, but all Muslims are infallible, for Allah says:
"But Allah wanted to cleanse you, and execute benevolence to you" (al-Maidah: 6)
The verse in Surah Al-Maidah is clearly addressed to all Muslims because it begins with the verse (O those who believe). The association of this verse is also clear that charities in this verse Allah commands Muslims to be purified when to pray. Thus the verse: "He wanted to purify" means: should you be purified so that you are clean, because God love you and are pleased to be clean. *tell me if there's any translation mistake

Okay, Uthman was murdered, and many people wanted Ali as caliph. They approached Ali to become caliph and he finally reluctantly agreed. Aisha, especially, perceived this was too soon after Uthman's death and thought Ali was one of the ones that conspired to murder Uthman. She led an army against him and many Muslims died unnecessarily. When she did this, she also violated the verse in the Qur'an that says this:
"And stay in your houses and display not your beauty like the displaying of the ignorance of yore." (33:33)

Wikipedia, really? The most reliable source in the world. Mu'awiyah broke many of the terms, if not all of them, of the treaty between him and Hassan ibn Ali. The terms were this:
1. Mu'awiyah would stop the cursing of Ali on the pulpit. (Broken, and let me further mention, cursing Ali is a big sin.)

Ali said: By him who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (PBUH) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me. (Sahih Muslim)

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: "Whoever reviles/curses Ali, has reviled/cursed me." (Ahmad)

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: "Whoever curses (or verbally abuses) Ali, he has, in fact, cursed me, and whoever has cursed me, he has cursed Allah, and whoever has cursed Allah, then Allah will throw him into the Hell-fire. (Ahmad)

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: "Whoever hurts Ali, has hurt me." (Ahmad)

And here's the proof he cursed him:

Narrated Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas:

Mu'awiyah, the son of Abu Sufyan, give order to Sa'd, and told him: "What prevents you that you are refraining from cursing Abu Turab (nickname of Ali)?" Sa'd replied: "Don't you remember that the Prophet said three things about (the virtue of) Ali? So I will never curse Ali." (Sahih Muslim)

Narrated on the authority of Abu Hazim that: The Governor of Medina who was one of the members of the house of Marwan called Sahl Ibn Sa'd, and ordered him to curse Ali. But Sahl refused to do so. The governor said: "If you don't want to curse Ali, just say God curse Abu Turab (the nickname of Ali)." Sahl said: "Ali did not like any name for himself better than Abu Turab, and Ali used to become very happy when somebody would call him Abu Turab. (Sahih Muslim)

2. Mu'awiyah would protect the sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS). (arguably broken, as seen above)
3. He'd stop killing the supporters of Ali. (broken)
4. He'd give back the blood money of the fallen in the Battle of Siffin. (broken)
5. The leadership would go to Hassan or Hussain after he dies. (broken)
 

AhmadSyahir

Active Member
Okay, Uthman was murdered, and many people wanted Ali as caliph. They approached Ali to become caliph and he finally reluctantly agreed. Aisha, especially, perceived this was too soon after Uthman's death and thought Ali was one of the ones that conspired to murder Uthman. She led an army against him and many Muslims died unnecessarily. When she did this, she also violated the verse in the Qur'an that says this:
"And stay in your houses and display not your beauty like the displaying of the ignorance of yore." (33:33)

Wikipedia, really? The most reliable source in the world. Mu'awiyah broke many of the terms, if not all of them, of the treaty between him and Hassan ibn Ali. The terms were this:
1. Mu'awiyah would stop the cursing of Ali on the pulpit. (Broken, and let me further mention, cursing Ali is a big sin.)

Ali said: By him who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (PBUH) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me. (Sahih Muslim)

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: "Whoever reviles/curses Ali, has reviled/cursed me." (Ahmad)

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: "Whoever curses (or verbally abuses) Ali, he has, in fact, cursed me, and whoever has cursed me, he has cursed Allah, and whoever has cursed Allah, then Allah will throw him into the Hell-fire. (Ahmad)

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: "Whoever hurts Ali, has hurt me." (Ahmad)

And here's the proof he cursed him:

Narrated Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas:

Mu'awiyah, the son of Abu Sufyan, give order to Sa'd, and told him: "What prevents you that you are refraining from cursing Abu Turab (nickname of Ali)?" Sa'd replied: "Don't you remember that the Prophet said three things about (the virtue of) Ali? So I will never curse Ali." (Sahih Muslim)

Narrated on the authority of Abu Hazim that: The Governor of Medina who was one of the members of the house of Marwan called Sahl Ibn Sa'd, and ordered him to curse Ali. But Sahl refused to do so. The governor said: "If you don't want to curse Ali, just say God curse Abu Turab (the nickname of Ali)." Sahl said: "Ali did not like any name for himself better than Abu Turab, and Ali used to become very happy when somebody would call him Abu Turab. (Sahih Muslim)

2. Mu'awiyah would protect the sunnah of the Prophet (SAWS). (arguably broken, as seen above)
3. He'd stop killing the supporters of Ali. (broken)
4. He'd give back the blood money of the fallen in the Battle of Siffin. (broken)
5. The leadership would go to Hassan or Hussain after he dies. (broken)

Don't pretending to answer my question by giving me a long statement. Did I say Ali R.A is wrong? But instead I put "I don't blame Ali bin Abi Talib R.A". I don't blame every sahaba. Not at all.

You really got me wrong. I will never, ever blame the sahaba for nothing. Now you have act like Shia. You blame Aisha R.A and the rest who join the war.

My opinion is it's just misunderstanding. Do you know who kill Uthman R.A? We don't. Uthman R.A don't go against his protester because he afraid that muslim will be divided. 40 of his servant ask permission from Uthman R.A to fight the rebels but he freed all 40 of them and told them to stay away from the rebels. Uthman R.A killed before the end of pilgrimage season because the protester afraid that they will be resistance from Mecca to help Uthman R.A.

Maybe there's a group who want the muslim to fight with each other. But we as a muslim cannot blame anyone in this case. Maybe it's the protester. But we can't accuse anyone right? Only Allah know the best.

Hadith:

I take this chance to talk on hadith. If I ever make mistake on my point, I hope you can teach what is right.

Hadith can be reliable or weak. How to know if it's reliable? I guess if many narrated the same or there's no changes in narration if the hadith is chained. (correct me if I was wrong). The most important hadith is about Syariah and history is the second place.

For example: You and me are studying in the same school and learning the same syllabus. Later, we compete in a quiz competition. The question is "Name a process that occur in plant to produce oxygen". We will answer 'photosyntesis' for sure. We had never discuss anything about science together before but we give the same answer because we're learning the same syllabus. I guess that's how hadith work.
 
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