Debate a Muslim

[danieldemol]

Who is this swearing by Allah?

How are we supposed to know without reffering to non-historical hadith and sira?

 

[SA Huguenot]

Yes. It says he wasn't crucified. I'm answering you; the Qur'an never criticises the early christians for believing in the crucifixion.

Ok, So if the quran in 630AD say the people who saw the crucifixion in 30AD are liars, and are confused, is that not insulting the early Christians?

Obviously the Quran, which is supposedly Allah, insults the early Cristians!

 

[firedragon]

How are we supposed to know without reffering to non-historical hadith and sira?

What do you mean "we"? Are you in the same group as this person or what do you refer to as "we"?

Anyway, its a simple logical question.

Who would "swear by Allah"? Maybe you can answer on behalf of your buddy who you have come to aid.

 

[firedragon]

Ok, So if the quran in 630AD say the people who saw the crucifixion in 30AD are liars, and are confused, is that not insulting the early Christians?

Obviously the Quran, which is supposedly Allah, insults the early Cristians!

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

For the LORD had said to Moses, ‘Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.’ (Numbers 1:48-51 )

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15 )

2) God’s Murders for Stupid Reasons:

Kill Brats

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!” The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 )

God Kills the Curious

And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and’ fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

Killed by a Lion

Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, “Strike me!” But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.” And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 )

Killing the Good Samaritan

The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.

When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 )

 

[danieldemol]

What do you mean "we"? Are you in the same group as this person or what do you refer to as "we"?

Anyone who wants to know.

Who would "swear by Allah"? Maybe you can answer on behalf of your buddy who you have come to aid.

Who said I'm here to aid anyone? I'm just asking a valid question.

Sure I could give you an answer which most probably originates in the hadith and sira.

 

[firedragon]

Sure I could give you an answer which most probably originates in the hadith and sira.

No worries. So give me from "hadith and sira".

 

[Shakeel]

Ok, So if the quran in 630AD say the people who saw the crucifixion in 30AD are liars, and are confused, is that not insulting the early Christians?

I never said it doesn't insult the early christians. I said it doesn't criticise them for believing in the crucifixion, which was the point of your argument.

 

[danieldemol]

SO you have no logical reasoning prowess?

Go on, explain in a straightforward manner how my question was illogical and/or unreasonable?

No worries. So give me from "hadith and sira".

Concerning Surah 9:74 which Yusuf Ali translates;
'They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil) but indeed they uttered blasphemy and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His apostle had enriched them! If they repent it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways) Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the hereafter: they shall have none on earth to protect or help them.'

Yusuf Ali says in note 1331;
'The reference is to a plot made by the Prophet's enemies to kill him when he was returning from Tabuk. The plot failed.'

Source: Surah 9. At-Tauba Translation by Yusuf Ali | Islamic Reference | Alim

But that they were allegedly attempted killers of Muhammad appears not to entirely absolve Muhammad for Muhammad lists their alleged crimes amongst which is that, "they uttered blasphemy and they did it after accepting Islam".

If I was arguing self defence in a court of law I wouldn't tell the judge, "your honour they were blasphemers and they tried to kill me" because blasphemy is not a crime.

So the question in my mind is did Muhammad consider the aforementioned act of blasphemy a crime? If not why did He mention it?

In my opinion.

 

[SA Huguenot]

I never said it doesn't insult the early christians. I said it doesn't criticise them for believing in the crucifixion, which was the point of your argument.

As long as you agree that the Quran insults Christians, I am in agreement.

 

[firedragon]

Go on, explain in a straightforward manner how my question was illogical and/or unreasonable?

I didnt say "unreasonable". I said use your logic but you insisted its got to be ahdith and some seerah.

Concerning Surah 9:74 which Yusuf Ali translates;
'They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil) but indeed they uttered blasphemy and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His apostle had enriched them! If they repent it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways) Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the hereafter: they shall have none on earth to protect or help them.'

Yusuf Ali says in note 1331;
'The reference is to a plot made by the Prophet's enemies to kill him when he was returning from Tabuk. The plot failed.'

Source: Surah 9. At-Tauba Translation by Yusuf Ali | Islamic Reference | Alim

But that they were allegedly attempted killers of Muhammad appears not to entirely absolve Muhammad for Muhammad lists their alleged crimes amongst which is that, "they uttered blasphemy and they did it after accepting Islam".

If I was arguing self defence in a court of law I wouldn't tell the judge, "your honour they were blasphemers and they tried to kill me" because blasphemy is not a crime.

So the question in my mind is did Muhammad consider the aforementioned act of blasphemy a crime? If not why did He mention it?

In my opinion.

No problem. You can give your opinion to demonise Muhammed later. First address the logic.

The person you are responding for, and the reason for me to ask who this is, is because he said they were "unbelievers" or "Kuffar".

Do you agree or disagree?

 

[firedragon]

As long as you agree that the Quran insults Christians, I am in agreement.

3) Murdering Children

Kill Sons of Sinners

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 )

God Will Kill Children

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered.” O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.” (Hosea 9:11-16 )

Kill Men, Women, and Children

“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7 )

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 )

Kill Old Men and Young Women

“You are my battle-ax and sword,” says the LORD. “With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. “As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem,” says the LORD. “Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy,” says the LORD. “I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out,” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

 

[kierkegaard]

Muslims can pray with their shoes on and I don't think importance should be paid to the prayer mat. It's just a mat that's all. The more correct translation is there is no god but Allah, seeing as Allah is a name.

If there is only one God, then any other believer is going the same direction I am. The different monotheistic religions are just different paths to the same singular goal.

 

[kierkegaard]

I think you forgot the Holy wars by Islam from 650AD to 1880.
Please go and read how non propped up Muslim leaders destroyed the middle east, beheaded millions in Eastern Europe, took millions of women as sex slaves to their markets, how they were Pitates in the medditeranian, attacked even England, to get slave women, how they almost took over the whole of Europe if it was not for the Christians who realised they had to fight back.
What about the Ottoman Turks that waged wars against Romenia, Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria, and all these previous Christian countries that were peacefull in their existance, finding the Muslim hordes almost reaching Vienna?
Or Egypt, Lybia up to Morrocco, taking Spain, reaching France.

Funny that Islam took to the sword, and destroyed 2 thirds of the Roman Catholic Empire, uder the pretence of Holy war.
Note, 80% of these autrocities were done before the Crusades, and the other 10% against countries that had sweet nothing to do with any wars on Islam.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. In Mark Twain's autobiography, which he had under seal (except to scholars) for a century, he said "Christianity has liberated enough blood to float all the boats in the world." In his time you couldn't get away with saying that openly. There were Crusades, the Inquisition, and the genocide of natives in both Americas by the Spanish. Starting with Columbus whose troops would cut off the hands of native Arawaks who refused to pay taxes. The were eventually decimated and replaced with hapless African slaves. See Yale's genocide studies program: Hispaniola | Genocide Studies Program

 

[kierkegaard]

I think you forgot the Holy wars by Islam from 650AD to 1880.
Please go and read how non propped up Muslim leaders destroyed the middle east, beheaded millions in Eastern Europe, took millions of women as sex slaves to their markets, how they were Pitates in the medditeranian, attacked even England, to get slave women, how they almost took over the whole of Europe if it was not for the Christians who realised they had to fight back.
What about the Ottoman Turks that waged wars against Romenia, Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria, and all these previous Christian countries that were peacefull in their existance, finding the Muslim hordes almost reaching Vienna?
Or Egypt, Lybia up to Morrocco, taking Spain, reaching France.

Funny that Islam took to the sword, and destroyed 2 thirds of the Roman Catholic Empire, uder the pretence of Holy war.
Note, 80% of these autrocities were done before the Crusades, and the other 10% against countries that had sweet nothing to do with any wars on Islam.

My first reply got deleted because I graphically described some of Christopher Columbus' practices in the New World. For that I refer you to Yale's genocide studies program: Hispaniola | Genocide Studies Program Oh, and also the Crusades and the Inquisition.

 

[kierkegaard]

9:73 O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.

It clearly says "deibelievers." It says nothing about leaders who broke a treaty.

And, for context, let's look at the next verse:

9:74 They swear by Allah that they said nothing (wrong), yet they did say the word of disbelief, and did disbelieve after their Surrender (to Allah). And they purposed that which they could not attain, and they sought revenge only that Allah by His messenger should enrich them of His bounty. If they repent it will be better for them; and if they turn away, Allah will afflict them with a painful doom in the world and the Hereafter, and they have no protecting friend nor helper in the earth.

So they said they did nothing wrong, but they said words of disbelief. Sounds to me that this is saying that spoke words of faith that were not Islamic, and then claimed that they did nothing wrong. The passage clearly says that this is considered to be doing something wrong anyway. It also says that they continued to disbelieve even after they claimed to convert to Islam.

Seems quite clear to me that this is saying that people who are not Muslims are the enemies, and apostacy is a very severe crime.

Don't get carried away with your semi-accurate English translation. The Quran was spoken by the prophet in conversational Arabic. It is very difficult to accurately translate idiomatic dialog in any language, and this problem worsens as the actual words and idioms become ancient.

 

[kierkegaard]

Muslims can pray with their shoes on and I don't think importance should be paid to the prayer mat. It's just a mat that's all. The more correct translation is there is no god but Allah, seeing as Allah is a name.

I have visited Egypt and was very impressed with the people. Of course if you are on a bus when midday prayers are broadcast you don't try to take off shoes and kneel down. It is up to each devotee how they act to reduce their offenses. Personally I like to have one good prayer first thing to a good standard.

 

[kierkegaard]

I think you forgot the Holy wars by Islam from 650AD to 1880.
Please go and read how non propped up Muslim leaders destroyed the middle east, beheaded millions in Eastern Europe, took millions of women as sex slaves to their markets, how they were Pitates in the medditeranian, attacked even England, to get slave women, how they almost took over the whole of Europe if it was not for the Christians who realised they had to fight back.
What about the Ottoman Turks that waged wars against Romenia, Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria, and all these previous Christian countries that were peacefull in their existance, finding the Muslim hordes almost reaching Vienna?
Or Egypt, Lybia up to Morrocco, taking Spain, reaching France.

Funny that Islam took to the sword, and destroyed 2 thirds of the Roman Catholic Empire, uder the pretence of Holy war.
Note, 80% of these autrocities were done before the Crusades, and the other 10% against countries that had sweet nothing to do with any wars on Islam.

Sinful people in the name of Islam's actions were a complete waste, because the Catholics survived to despoil the Americas. I am well aware of the severe things done by the Turks. I had time to discuss this with a native Bulgarian, and her stark statement about that period was, "They treated us very unmercifully, even worse than farm animals."

 

[Starlight]

3) Murdering Children

Kill Sons of Sinners

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 )

God Will Kill Children

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered.” O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.” (Hosea 9:11-16 )

Kill Men, Women, and Children

“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7 )

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 )

Kill Old Men and Young Women

“You are my battle-ax and sword,” says the LORD. “With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. “As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem,” says the LORD. “Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy,” says the LORD. “I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out,” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

Many christians believe some of the contents in the Bible is not from God. They believe some of the contents is written by humans that used God to justify violence or humans that misunderstood what God wants. They who wrote it thought God was more angry and hard-hearted than what God really is

Since many christians believe the Bible is not 100% from God or they do not interpret the whole Bible literaly then i don't understand why you use violence verses in the Bible to defend yourself

Many christians come to the conclusion that much of the violence verses in the Bible is NOT from God. Many christians believe God is really loving and just. And because of that they understand that much of the violence verses in the Bible is NOT from God.

 

[kierkegaard]

That is why Thomas Jefferson had to make his own bible. It was literally made with 18th century cut-and-paste techniques. He didn't publish it but it remained in his family for generations. I thought like many do that Jefferson was borderline atheist. Like Benjamin Franklin who was a "deist," which was the closest thing one could admit to atheism in those days. But actually Thomas Jefferson was a very sincere and serious devotee of Jesus. When he applied his analytical mind to certain disparities in tone concerning Jesus' words or actions, he could not believe the same personality could produce them. So he clipped out the portions that he believed were logically consistent and made his own bible. Jesus lived his whole life speaking Aramaic yet the NT bible was written in Greek a long time after he disappeared...

 

[firedragon]

Many christians believe some of the contents in the Bible is not from God. They believe some of the contents is written by humans that used God to justify violence or humans that misunderstood what God wants. They who wrote it thought God was more angry and hard-hearted than what God really is

Since many christians believe the Bible is not 100% from God or they do not interpret the whole Bible literaly then i don't understand why you use violence verses in the Bible to defend yourself

Many christians come to the conclusion that much of the violence verses in the Bible is NOT from God. Many christians believe God is really loving and just. And because of that they understand that much of the violence verses in the Bible is NOT from God.

With all due respect, this cut and paste is to show how bad an argument cut and pastes are to a person who did nothing but cut and pastes and passing insults.

This is not meant to be an argument so I am sorry for doing that. So you dont have to present any arguments. I concede.

I hope you understand.