Debate a Muslim

[Tiberius]

It says “them” as for “unbelievers” it’s a deliberate change of the word “them” to that to deceive you.

I'm sorry, did you think I was claiming that that particular passage was the only one?

I've already conceded that point to you.

 

[Tiberius]

Wow. Another cut and paste of cherry picked verses. See, some of them are the same.

Grown ups dont do this you see.

For real?

Are you claiming that 9:73 does not call for believers to fight against unbelievers?

 

[firedragon]

I'm sorry, did you think I was claiming that that particular passage was the only one?

I've already conceded that point to you.

tell me. Is a ":glove" called "Unbeliever"? What does it mean when a "glove" is called Kuffar?

Any educated person in the theology you are trying to criticise would know this. Some won't, but those who dont "ask with humility".

Lets see if you have any of it.

 

[Link]

I am aware of all these verses having read Quran over 50 times in my life. I will make a thread about all this tomorrow. I’m off to sleep but yes they are all taken out of context and none of them say what you think.

 

[firedragon]

For real?

Are you claiming that 9:73 does not call for believers to fight against unbelievers?

1. IT says "strive"
2. It is regarding those who broke a treaty.
3. It is with the leaders of those who broke the treaty.
4. If they cease fighting, you are to escort them to safety.

Have you not read anything other than the cut and pasted verses? Check your favourite cut and paste website.

 

[Tiberius]

tell me. Is a ":glove" called "Unbeliever"? What does it mean when a "glove" is called Kuffar?

Any educated person in the theology you are trying to criticise would know this. Some won't, but those who dont "ask with humility".

Lets see if you have any of it.

So in 3:32 when it says that Allah does not love the unbelievers, that includes gloves? Does Allah hate gloves?

And in 4:101 where it says unbelievers are an enemy to you, does this mean that Muslims consider gloves to be their enemy?

 

[firedragon]

So in 3:32 when it says that Allah does not love the unbelievers, that includes gloves? Does Allah hate gloves?

Nope.

 

[firedragon]

So in 3:32 when it says that Allah does not love the unbelievers, that includes gloves? Does Allah hate gloves?

And in 4:101 where it says unbelievers are an enemy to you, does this mean that Muslims consider gloves to be their enemy?

How about planting a potato in the ground? Why is that called Kuf?

 

[Tiberius]

1. IT says "strive"
2. It is regarding those who broke a treaty.
3. It is with the leaders of those who broke the treaty.
4. If they cease fighting, you are to escort them to safety.

Have you not read anything other than the cut and pasted verses? Check your favourite cut and paste website.

9:73 O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.

It clearly says "deibelievers." It says nothing about leaders who broke a treaty.

And, for context, let's look at the next verse:

9:74 They swear by Allah that they said nothing (wrong), yet they did say the word of disbelief, and did disbelieve after their Surrender (to Allah). And they purposed that which they could not attain, and they sought revenge only that Allah by His messenger should enrich them of His bounty. If they repent it will be better for them; and if they turn away, Allah will afflict them with a painful doom in the world and the Hereafter, and they have no protecting friend nor helper in the earth.

So they said they did nothing wrong, but they said words of disbelief. Sounds to me that this is saying that spoke words of faith that were not Islamic, and then claimed that they did nothing wrong. The passage clearly says that this is considered to be doing something wrong anyway. It also says that they continued to disbelieve even after they claimed to convert to Islam.

Seems quite clear to me that this is saying that people who are not Muslims are the enemies, and apostacy is a very severe crime.

 

[firedragon]

9:73 O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them.

What about a man in courts? Who will be called a kuffar?

 

[firedragon]

It clearly says "deibelievers." It says nothing about leaders who broke a treaty.

Read. Third time.

Cherry Picking



Lo and behold, the Quran has a verse that says kill them Polytheists. Quran chapter 9:5.



The internet is full of lists. You can search and find what you like. So, one goes online and searches for something like “Violence in Islam” of course you will find a list that suits your search. Then you pick one of the Juicy ones and post it here and there feigning you have read the whole Quran and this particular verse sums them all up.



9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the Communion, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.



But oh, what is this thing about the restricted months? Is there a context to this verse?



Let’s go back a few verses. Just a few verses for a start.



9:1 A revocation is made by God and His messenger to those with whom you have made a pledge from among the polytheists.



Baraathun/revocation/a freedom of obligation/disassociation.



Why is this disassociation? Is it BECAUSE they are so called Polytheists?



9:3 And a proclamation from God and His messenger to the people, on the day of the greater Pilgrimage: “That God and His messenger are innocent from the polytheists.” If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape God. And give news to those who have rejected of a painful retribution.



Not really. This is a people who had a treaty with you and they broke it.



Then the Quran says “Except those who kept the pledges in the treaty”. Thus, none of this is about all the polytheists.



9:4 Except for those with whom you had made a pledge from among the polytheists if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they support anyone against you; you shall continue the pledge with them until its expiry. God loves the righteous.



So you give them 4 months as a period of reconciliation. They have broken the treaty, you have given them time, and there is no option but to battle.



9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the Communion, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.



Then comes the mercy if they are seeking your protection.



9:6 And if any of the polytheists seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the words of God, then let him reach his sanctity. This is because they are a people who do not know.



9:8 How is it that when they come upon you they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts deny, and the majority of them are wicked.



They are not called polytheists because of their belief alone, it is because they are cheaters as a people. They broke a pledge and they did not keep their promises.



As long as they are upright with you, you are upright with them. 9:7.



9:12 And if they break their oaths after making their pledge, and they challenge the authority of your Dheen; then you may kill the leaders of rejection. Their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then cease.



You are allowed only the leaders of the oath-breaking, aggressive nation who fought you and attacked you first. Which means those who fight you. The governance. Not every tom, dick and harry.



They are the aggressors. They attacked you first. Not that you are to go seeking all over the world and find all the polytheists and kill them. Read.



9:13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths, and obsessed to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Are you concerned about them? It is God who is more deserving that you be concerned with if you are believers.





You must fight if someone is weak, being persecuted and are oppressed.

4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from yourself a Supporter, and grant us from yourself a Victor!”



You must fight on behalf of the weak

4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from Yourself a Supporter, and grant us from Yourself a Victor!”



Charities to be used for just cause

9:60 The charities are to go to the poor, and the needy, and those who work to collect them, and those whose hearts have been united, and to free the slaves, and those in debt, and in the cause of God, and the wayfarer. A duty from God, and God is Knowledgeable, Wise.



You cannot kill unjustly



17:33 And do not kill, for God has made this forbidden, except in the course of justice. And whoever is killed innocently, then We have given his heir authority, so let him not transgress in the taking of a life, for He will be given victory. Just cause to kill is aggression, but you are not allowed to be the aggressor.


2:190 And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors.


2:191 And kill them wherever you overcome them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Sacred Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the recompense of the disbelievers.


2:192 And if they cease, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.


2:193 And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God’s. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.



Iqra. Read.



2:263 Kind words and forgiveness are far better than a charity that is followed by harm. God is Rich, Compassionate.


2:264 O you who believe, do not nullify your charities with insult and harm; like the one who spends his money in vanity to show off to the people, and he does not believe in God and the Last Day. His example is like a stone on which there is dust, then it is subjected to a heavy rain which leaves it bare. They cannot do anything with what they have earned; and God does not guide the rejecting people.


2:265 And the example of those who spend their money seeking the grace of God, and to save their souls, is like the example of a garden that is on a high ground and is subjected to a heavy rain, and because of that it produces double its crop. And if no heavy rain comes, then it still gives enough. And God is Seer of what you do.



Peace

 

[firedragon]

Seems quite clear to me that this is saying that people who are not Muslims are the enemies, and apostacy is a very severe crime.

Seems quite clear to me that you just use those words "seems to me" to put your hatred into something and intentionally misrepresent it.

And it seems to me, you lived your life, like a candle in the wind. Tell me mate. Your favourite verse of the Quran says "9:74 "They swear by Allah that they said nothing", and that's from your own cut and paste. Who is this swearing by Allah?

 

[SA Huguenot]

Still afraid to speak about the nails in Islams coffin, are you?

 

[kierkegaard]

- Where them objections?

I think many people including me admire the piety. I also pray without shoes on, facing East, on an heirloom rug handed down from my ancestors. I very much love the saying "There is no God but God." The objections are terrorism. Example. Iran is a Muslim country and it has done them no good. They were the first monotheists, are not Arabic, and had a strong culture. The fault of what happened to Iran is not Islam per se, because the U.S. was propping up the Shah of Iran, who was a despot. In desperation they launched a revolution, and wound up with a repressive theocracy. Many if not most religions envision a country ruled by religious law. But it is cheating to try to impose this through terrorism.

 

[SA Huguenot]

I think many people including me admire the piety. I also pray without shoes on, facing East, on an heirloom rug handed down from my ancestors. I very much love the saying "There is no God but God." The objections are terrorism. Example. Iran is a Muslim country and it has done them no good. They were the first monotheists, are not Arabic, and had a strong culture. The fault of what happened to Iran is not Islam per se, because the U.S. was propping up the Shah of Iran, who was a despot. In desperation they launched a revolution, and wound up with a repressive theocracy. Many if not most religions envision a country ruled by religious law. But it is cheating to try to impose this through terrorism.

I think you forgot the Holy wars by Islam from 650AD to 1880.
Please go and read how non propped up Muslim leaders destroyed the middle east, beheaded millions in Eastern Europe, took millions of women as sex slaves to their markets, how they were Pitates in the medditeranian, attacked even England, to get slave women, how they almost took over the whole of Europe if it was not for the Christians who realised they had to fight back.
What about the Ottoman Turks that waged wars against Romenia, Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria, and all these previous Christian countries that were peacefull in their existance, finding the Muslim hordes almost reaching Vienna?
Or Egypt, Lybia up to Morrocco, taking Spain, reaching France.

Funny that Islam took to the sword, and destroyed 2 thirds of the Roman Catholic Empire, uder the pretence of Holy war.
Note, 80% of these autrocities were done before the Crusades, and the other 10% against countries that had sweet nothing to do with any wars on Islam.

 

[Shakeel]

You and your child marriage supporting buddy, @Ghazaly, only have whataboutisms to offer in return and those aren't compelling in the least.

That's not whataboutism. That was a direct answer to your question about Muslim women's rights and to your insinuation regarding those rights and to your claim about European women losing their rights because of Muslims. It's unfortunate if you can't reply to any of that in a straight forward manner.

And why do you keep talking about the Bible?

It's pretty clear why. You insinuated certain matters relate to Muslim women in exclusion to others and ignore that actually most of the world has been included in all that and sometimes Muslims women are not part of those unfortunate women like Jews and Christians.

I would also advise you to keep accusations of "intolerance" to yourself,

No, I'm going to speak the truth even if you don't like it. But it's good you at least acknowledge your intolerance.

 

[Shakeel]

I think many people including me admire the piety. I also pray without shoes on, facing East, on an heirloom rug handed down from my ancestors. I very much love the saying "There is no God but God.

Muslims can pray with their shoes on and I don't think importance should be paid to the prayer mat. It's just a mat that's all. The more correct translation is there is no god but Allah, seeing as Allah is a name.

 

[Shakeel]

If you ask a Muslim scholar, did Jesus die on the cross, they will say, never, definately not!
Then you ask him, why did the apostles record the crucifixion?
They answer, these people who recorded it was corrupt deceivers, and they were confused!
I then ask, OK, so why does the Quran say these people did witness someone on the cross, resembeling Jesus, and this resemblance died looking like Jesus.
They dont answer, and never want you to quote the rest of the verse in the Quran.

The Qur'an never criticised the early Christians for believing in the crucifixion.

 

[SA Huguenot]

The Qur'an never criticised the early Christians for believing in the crucifixion.

Hi Shakeel,
Did you read sura 4: aya 157?
What does it say?
Was Jesus crucified or not?
I havent found anyone who could answer that contradiction in the Quran.

 

[Shakeel]

Hi Shakeel,
Did you read sura 4: aya 157?
What does it say?
Was Jesus crucified or not?
I havent found anyone who could answer that contradiction in the Quran.

Yes. It says he wasn't crucified. I'm answering you; the Qur'an never criticises the early christians for believing in the crucifixion.