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Debate a Muslim

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Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I find it sad all this time Tiberius, you could've asked me for clarification.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
190-193, this is why I was telling you to check the context. I just quoted them all together, don't you think that's more of fair then quoting a part and ignore part of a verse, snip here, snip there, and then make it look bad?

And what part of that context make you think I'm going to read it and say, "Oh, yes, that's quite acceptable now, isn't it"?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And what part of that context make you think I'm going to read it and say, "Oh, yes, that's quite acceptable now, isn't it"?

Well for starters, it lays the condition in the start "fight those who fight you....". The lines after should be seen in that context, especially, since they come right after (literally it's the verse before the one you quoted).
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
No you should read up on history. Anyways, the segment starts with "fight those who fight you...".

And apparently the Koran says that someone is fighting you if they do nothing more than hold different religious beliefs.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yeah, it sounds like it's saying, "If they don't want to become Muslims, they don't have to. Just kill them instead."

Read the book I linked you. You need to learn something about language and context and how that works, before you engage in dialogue about what Quran says.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And apparently the Koran says that someone is fighting you if they do nothing more than hold different religious beliefs.

This is unfair, especially, since the first command to Muslims was to keep their hands away from fighting while they were prosecuted, tortured, attacked, and forced to conceal their faith. Yet Mohammad (s) didn't tell them to fight till he was invited by a city to become it's ruler and had to protect the city from invasion.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Forget history. He should read his own cut and paste.
I did. You seem to think there's some justification for killing unbelievers in there. Or something in there that means the bit that says "kill the unbelievers" doesn't mean "kill the unbelievers."
 

Alex22

Member
Nope. I didnt ignore. I gave a full explanation. Since you are making a bogus statement, let me cut and paste again.

Cherry Picking



Lo and behold, the Quran has a verse that says kill them Polytheists. Quran chapter 9:5.



The internet is full of lists. You can search and find what you like. So, one goes online and searches for something like “Violence in Islam” of course you will find a list that suits your search. Then you pick one of the Juicy ones and post it here and there feigning you have read the whole Quran and this particular verse sums them all up.



9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the Communion, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.



But oh, what is this thing about the restricted months? Is there a context to this verse?



Let’s go back a few verses. Just a few verses for a start.



9:1 A revocation is made by God and His messenger to those with whom you have made a pledge from among the polytheists.



Baraathun/revocation/a freedom of obligation/disassociation.



Why is this disassociation? Is it BECAUSE they are so called Polytheists?



9:3 And a proclamation from God and His messenger to the people, on the day of the greater Pilgrimage: “That God and His messenger are innocent from the polytheists.” If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape God. And give news to those who have rejected of a painful retribution.



Not really. This is a people who had a treaty with you and they broke it.



Then the Quran says “Except those who kept the pledges in the treaty”. Thus, none of this is about all the polytheists.



9:4 Except for those with whom you had made a pledge from among the polytheists if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they support anyone against you; you shall continue the pledge with them until its expiry. God loves the righteous.



So you give them 4 months as a period of reconciliation. They have broken the treaty, you have given them time, and there is no option but to battle.



9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the Communion, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.



Then comes the mercy if they are seeking your protection.



9:6 And if any of the polytheists seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the words of God, then let him reach his sanctity. This is because they are a people who do not know.



9:8 How is it that when they come upon you they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts deny, and the majority of them are wicked.



They are not called polytheists because of their belief alone, it is because they are cheaters as a people. They broke a pledge and they did not keep their promises.



As long as they are upright with you, you are upright with them. 9:7.



9:12 And if they break their oaths after making their pledge, and they challenge the authority of your Dheen; then you may kill the leaders of rejection. Their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then cease.



You are allowed only the leaders of the oath-breaking, aggressive nation who fought you and attacked you first. Which means those who fight you. The governance. Not every tom, dick and harry.



They are the aggressors. They attacked you first. Not that you are to go seeking all over the world and find all the polytheists and kill them. Read.



9:13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths, and obsessed to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Are you concerned about them? It is God who is more deserving that you be concerned with if you are believers.





You must fight if someone is weak, being persecuted and are oppressed.

4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from yourself a Supporter, and grant us from yourself a Victor!”



You must fight on behalf of the weak

4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from Yourself a Supporter, and grant us from Yourself a Victor!”



Charities to be used for just cause

9:60 The charities are to go to the poor, and the needy, and those who work to collect them, and those whose hearts have been united, and to free the slaves, and those in debt, and in the cause of God, and the wayfarer. A duty from God, and God is Knowledgeable, Wise.



You cannot kill unjustly



17:33 And do not kill, for God has made this forbidden, except in the course of justice. And whoever is killed innocently, then We have given his heir authority, so let him not transgress in the taking of a life, for He will be given victory. Just cause to kill is aggression, but you are not allowed to be the aggressor.


2:190 And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors.


2:191 And kill them wherever you overcome them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Sacred Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the recompense of the disbelievers.


2:192 And if they cease, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.


2:193 And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God’s. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.



Iqra. Read.



2:263 Kind words and forgiveness are far better than a charity that is followed by harm. God is Rich, Compassionate.


2:264 O you who believe, do not nullify your charities with insult and harm; like the one who spends his money in vanity to show off to the people, and he does not believe in God and the Last Day. His example is like a stone on which there is dust, then it is subjected to a heavy rain which leaves it bare. They cannot do anything with what they have earned; and God does not guide the rejecting people.



2:265 And the example of those who spend their money seeking the grace of God, and to save their souls, is like the example of a garden that is on a high ground and is subjected to a heavy rain, and because of that it produces double its crop. And if no heavy rain comes, then it still gives enough. And God is Seer of what you do.




Peace

This explained nothing, just sounds like pathetic excuses.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
Read the book I linked you. You need to learn something about language and context and how that works, before you engage in dialogue about what Quran says.

I have my doubts @Tiberius is going to do that. He's an arguer with a score to settle. Comes in guns blazing. Doesn't want to study the subject, but wants to put his arguing skills to work.
 
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