Define Christianity

[Rival]

I would argue that the fact that these groups are generally considered Christian implies that the Nicene Creed and other creeds aren't the basis for our definition of Christianity.

I wouldn't agree they're generally considered Christians, at least not from my experience. Others may differ. I can only speak from experience.

But if you're defining Christianity in terms of whether they proclaim some creed to be true, what do you call the group of people who came up with the creed?

Christians, as they believed in the creeds they drew up.

Did Christianity originate at the Council of Nicea, or did it exist before that?

The creeds ratify what was always believed in the face of growing heresies.

BTW: why would we decide that the Arians aren't Christian (as opposed to deciding that they're heretical Christians)?

I would say it's a matter of degree. If you deny Jesus is God, you've denied a fundamental of the faith. If you deny Mary wasn't immaculately conceived, you've denied a non-fundamental doctrine (it's not in the creed).

 

[Eli G]

When Paul was presenting a defense about the false accusations of the Jews before the Roman rulers, this dialogue occurred:

Acts 26:27
"Do you, King Agrippa, believe the Prophets? I know that you believe.”
28 But Agrippa said to Paul:
“In a short time you would persuade me to become a Christian.”
29 At this Paul said:
“I wish to God that whether in a short time or in a long time, not only you but also all those who hear me today would become men such as I am, with the exception of these prison bonds.”

So it was already clear by that time what being a Christian meant... It was that clear that even a king knew it.

 

[Rival]

When Paul was presenting a defense about the false accusations of the Jews before the Roman rulers, this dialogue occurred:

Acts 26:27
"Do you, King Agrippa, believe the Prophets? I know that you believe.”
28 But Agrippa said to Paul:
“In a short time you would persuade me to become a Christian.”
29 At this Paul said:
“I wish to God that whether in a short time or in a long time, not only you but also all those who hear me today would become men such as I am, with the exception of these prison bonds.”

So it was already clear by that time what being a Christian meant... It was that clear that even a king knew it.

What do you believe Christianity is? How would you define it?

 

[Eli G]

What do you believe Christianity is? How would you define it?

The Truth: A set of basic beliefs and
The Way, a set of principles that cannot be violated.

The beliefs and principles are clearly outlined in the Scriptures, which were completed in their entirety during the time when some followers of Jesus who had received the holy spirit directly from heaven were still alive.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I wouldn't agree they're generally considered Christians, at least not from my experience. Others may differ. I can only speak from experience.

Like I said, most of the Christians I've met who don't consider Mormons and JWs to be Christian also don't consider more mainstream Christian groups to be Christian.

Christians, as they believed in the creeds they drew up.

Did they?

This kinda suggests to me a few things about the truth of the religion. I mean, if Christianity developed the way they claim it did, then at its start, the marker of a Christian - i.e. a follower of Jesus - was that they literally followed Jesus around. Doctrinal tests for what it meant to be a "real" follower of Jesus would have necessarily come later, when there was no physical Jesus to literally follow.

IMO, saying that there were always creeds and doctrinal tests from the beginning implies that at the beginning, there was no literal Jesus.

The creeds ratify what was always believed in the face of growing heresies.

Again: this has implications for the truth of Christianity.

If we take the Bible narrative as true, then there would have been a transition point at Jesus's death: his stunned followers suddenly had to work out what it meant to be a follower of Jesus in the absence of Jesus, which would almost certainly have been a process that took time, not something where all the disciples would have instantly agreed on what being a Christian entailed.

I would say it's a matter of degree. If you deny Jesus is God, you've denied a fundamental of the faith. If you deny Mary wasn't immaculately conceived, you've denied a non-fundamental doctrine (it's not in the creed).

Is this distinction between "fundamentals" and "non-fundamentals" spelled out somewhere in something that Christians generally agree to?

 

[Ebionite]

OK, so people in Rome have to pay taxes to Rome etc. I don't see a problem unless you are advocating lawbreaking?

The problem is that Paul said that Rome reflected divine authority. Christian lawbreaking followed from Paul's negative attitude towards Moses and the law, which resulted in him being tested in the temple and the ensuing riot.

 

[Ebionite]

Its true meaning lies in what it implied when the term was originally coined

Exactly.

it was first in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence called Christians.

The idea of divine providence isn't supported by the context. Public business relates to the teaching that was carried out at Antioch.

chrématizó: to transact business, to make answer

Usage: (originally: I transact business), (a) act. of God: I warn; pass: I am warned by God (probably in response to an inquiry as to one's duty), (b) (I take a name from my public business, hence) I receive a name, am publicly called.

Acts 11:26 Interlinear: and having found him, he brought him to Antioch, and it came to pass that they a whole year did assemble together in the assembly, and taught a great multitude, the disciples also were divinely called first in Antioch Christia

 

[Eli G]

Christianity has its support in biblical Judaism, that is, that practiced by faithful Israelites, whether in beliefs or legal principles... This means that since the first disciples of Jesus were Jews just as he himself was , there was already a set of basic beliefs and principles well established and in no way would they cease to be true or binding.

John 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews.

For example: the identity of God, the future of humanity and the planet, what role God's Messiah would play, who are the angels, etc. All of these fundamental teachings were already established in Judaism, and in no way would they cease to be true after organized Christianity appeared at the time of the founding of the Christian community in the first century.

Rom. 3:27 Where, then, is the boasting? There is no place for it. Through what law? That of works? No indeed, but through the law of faith. 28 For we consider that a man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also the God of people of the nations? Yes, also of people of the nations. 30 Since God is one, he will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith. 31 Do we, then, abolish law by means of our faith? Not at all! On the contrary, we uphold law.

So much so that the resurrected Jesus himself uses the term "Jew" to refer to Christians who occupy the position of God's people under the new covenant.

Rev. 2:9 ‘I know your tribulation and poverty—but you are rich—and the blasphemy by those who call themselves Jews and really are not, but they are a synagogue of Satan.
... 3:7 (...) These are the things he says who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens so that no one will shut and shuts so that no one opens: 8 ‘I know your deeds—look! I have set before you an opened door, which no one can shut. And I know that you have a little power, and you kept my word and did not prove false to my name. 9 Look! I will make those from the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews yet are not, but are lying—look! I will make them come and bow before your feet and make them know that I have loved you.

 

[Eli G]

Exactly.



The idea of divine providence isn't supported by the context. Public business relates to the teaching that was carried out at Antioch.

chrématizó: to transact business, to make answer

Usage: (originally: I transact business), (a) act. of God: I warn; pass: I am warned by God (probably in response to an inquiry as to one's duty), (b) (I take a name from my public business, hence) I receive a name, am publicly called.

Acts 11:26 Interlinear: and having found him, he brought him to Antioch, and it came to pass that they a whole year did assemble together in the assembly, and taught a great multitude, the disciples also were divinely called first in Antioch Christia

It is an expression to translate one word. The use of that word shows that it has to do with God decisions.

 

[Ebionite]

It is an expression to translate one word. The use of that word shows that it has to do with God decisions.

Why do you say that?

 

[Ebionite]

So much so that the resurrected Jesus himself uses the term "Jew" to refer to Christians who occupy the position of God's people under the new covenant.

No, the ekkelisa (churches) of the book of Revelation rejected Paul.

This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
2 Timothy 1:15

 

[Eli G]

Why do you say that?

Check the use of χρηματίζω in the Christian Greek Scriptures and in the Dictionaries.

 

[Eli G]

No, the ekkelisa (churches) of the book of Revelation rejected Paul.

This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
2 Timothy 1:15

Perhaps this reference will help you better understand what Paul was telling Timothy:

Acts 19:8 Entering the synagogue, for three months he spoke with boldness, giving talks and reasoning persuasively about the Kingdom of God. 9 But when some stubbornly refused to believe, speaking injuriously about The Way before the crowd, he withdrew from them and separated the disciples from them, giving talks daily in the school auditorium of Ty·ranʹnus. 10 This went on for two years, so that all those living in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.

Paul was a Christian approved by Jesus. Peter, an apostle of Jesus, recognized that Paul's wisdom on different Christian topics came from God, and that many people tried to twist the things he taught under inspiration.

2 Pet. 3:14 Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace. 15 Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking about these things as he does in all his letters. However, some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

As you can see, Paul's letters were read and studied in first century Christian congregations even when the apostles were still alive. Additionally, Paul had direct contact with the elders and apostles in Jerusalem who gave instructions to the congregations in Asia. He was even the bearer of a letter from those apostles that clarified whether non-Jews had to be circumcised or not (Acts 15).

Evidently, you have been influenced by modern false theologians who try to isolate Paul from original Christianity and even try to make it seem like he was an apostate. Evidently, these are slanders to nullify the importance of the teachings that are recorded in more than half of the books of the Christian Greek Scriptures, a scheme that seeks to destroy the importance of the Bible for a Christian.

 

[Ebionite]

Check the use of χρηματίζω in the Christian Greek Scriptures and in the Dictionaries.

Did you not read my post?

The idea of divine providence isn't supported by the context. Public business relates to the teaching that was carried out at Antioch.

chrématizó: to transact business, to make answer

Usage: (originally: I transact business), (a) act. of God: I warn; pass: I am warned by God (probably in response to an inquiry as to one's duty), (b) (I take a name from my public business, hence) I receive a name, am publicly called.

 

[Eli G]

Did you not read my post?

Did you read mine? I won't copy here all you need to check by yourself.
Even the dictionary you quoted includes GOD's decision in the definition.

Again: Check the use of χρηματίζω in the Christian Greek Scriptures and in the Dictionaries.

Check some of them and see by yourself what I meant.

You can read this info about the use of that verb in Acts 11:26, that may help you understand:

The Greek verb khre·ma·tiʹzo in this text is generally rendered simply “were called,” and that is what is done at Acts 11:26 in most translations. However, there are translations that indicate that God had something to do with selecting the name ‘Christian.’ Noteworthy in this regard are the New World Translation, Young’s Literal Translation, and The Simple English Bible. Young’sreads: “The disciples also were divinely called first in Antioch Christians.”

The Greek word khre·ma·tiʹzo as used in the Christian Greek Scriptures is always associated with something supernatural, oracular, or divine. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, in its Greek dictionary (1890, p. 78), defines it as “to utter an oracle . . . i.e. divinely intimate.” Edward Robinson’s Greek and English Lexicon (1885, p. 786) gives the meaning: “Spoken in respect to a divine response, oracle, declaration, to give response, to speak as an oracle, to warn from God.” Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (1889, p. 671): “to give a divine command or admonition, to teach from heaven . . . to be divinely commanded, admonished, instructed . . . to be the mouthpiece of divine revelations, to promulge the commands of God.” Thomas Scott in his Explanatory Notes on this text (1832, Vol. III, p. 419) says: “The word implies that this was done by divine revelation: for it has generally this signification in the New Testament, and is rendered ‘warned from God’ or ‘warned of God,’ even when there is no word for GOD in the Greek.” Concerning Acts 11:26, Clarke’s Commentary says: “The word [khre·ma·tiʹsai] in our common text, which we translate were called, signifies in the New Testament, to appoint, warn, or nominate, by Divine direction. In this sense, the word is used, Matt. ii. 12 . . . If, therefore, the name was given by Divine appointment, it is most likely that Saul and Barnabas were directed to give it; and that, therefore, the name Christianis from God.”—See Mt 2:12, 22; Lu 2:26; Ac 10:22; Ro 7:3, Int; Heb 8:5; 11:7;12:25, where this Greek verb occurs. (Taken from https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200000967 )

 

[Ebionite]

Perhaps this reference will help you better understand what Paul was telling Timothy:

Acts 19:8 Entering the synagogue, for three months he spoke with boldness, giving talks and reasoning persuasively about the Kingdom of God. 9 But when some stubbornly refused to believe, speaking injuriously about The Way before the crowd, he withdrew from them and separated the disciples from them, giving talks daily in the school auditorium of Ty·ranʹnus. 10 This went on for two years, so that all those living in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.

That's about Ephesus.
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Revelation 2:1-2

Paul was a Christian approved by Jesus.

Not so much.
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Acts 9:15-16

 

[Eli G]

For some reason you can't assimilate the info I am sharing with you.
I think I can't do more to help a person who can't accept the value of what I am sharing...
Have an excellent weekend.

 

[Quintessence]

When I use the term, it's with full awareness that I'm an idiot outsider looking in. I know enough to know how incredibly heterogenous the religious movement is, how diverse and long its history has been, about its contributions to the sciences and to the arts, about its role in steering Western culture for several hundred years, a few other bits and pieces. One could spend multiple lifetimes just studying these religions and never exhaust the possibilities. It's monstrously complicated, as is the study of any religion.

In the broadest of terms, I understand Christianity to revolve around the worship of their god, a monotheistic deity usually understood as a trinity, with a particular emphasis placed on the mortal incarnation (Jesus) within this trinity as taught through the Bible (especially the New Testament) and expanded upon through various endowed church authorities that vary depending in the tradition. Beyond that, I defer to the academics who have made it their life's mission to study the history and influence of these religious traditions as well as the living traditions of the present day and their theologians. I am but a Pagan outsider.

 

[Ebionite]

Did you read mine?

Yes, you avoided the point about the public business of Antioch, as supported by Strongs Concordance:

(b) (I take a name from my public business, hence) I receive a name, am publicly called.

The Greek word khre·ma·tiʹzo as used in the Christian Greek Scriptures is always associated with something supernatural, oracular, or divine

That's incorrect. Being called an adulteress relates to public business.

So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called[chrēmatisei] an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Romans 7:3

 

[Ebionite]

For some reason you can't assimilate the info I am sharing with you.

Because of the errors.