Ghostaka
Active Member
Duly noted. Thanks for the acknowledgment ... but I'm detecting another (intended?) tone in that response lol. I think sarcasm doesn't work that well online.
Peace be upon you.
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did Jesus ever say he was god?
- Thread starter Gharib
- Start date
Duly noted. Thanks for the acknowledgment ... but I'm detecting another (intended?) tone in that response lol. I think sarcasm doesn't work that well online.
Peace be upon you.
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Well, I do believe sarcasm can work online... but I wasn't being sarcastic. I just don't find commentary from 500 years after the fact to be of much use in understanding my faith.... and have never once tried to attack Islam and tell Muslims that they don't understand their own faith... that would be insane.
But to each his/her own.
　
No, Yahshua never mentioned he was El anywhere in the bible. Reason? Because at that time he was not considered so. Though it is said
　
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O El, is forever and ever. The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your Kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness, and hated lawlessness; therefore El, your Elohim, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows."
　
Though I offer also that even mere men were considered elohim
　
Exo 7:1 YAH said to Moshe, "Behold, I have made you as an El to Par`oh; and Aharon your brother shall be your prophet.
　
Psa 82:6 I said, "You are elohims, all of you are sons of the Most High.
　
Just to make myself clear
　
1Co 8:5 For though there are things that are called "elohims," whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many "elohims" and many "masters;"
　
As well as the very next verse which does separate the two as being not the same but two different entities where only one is divine that being Yah
　
1Co 8:6 yet to us there is one El, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Master, Yahshua the Anointed, for whom are all things, and we live through him.
　
Simplicity is the key!
Ghostaka
Active Member
Then again (about sarcasm), yeah agree in some instances.
Brother, don't get me wrong. I am not attacking you in the slightest. I apologize if you feel that way, but I have yet to complete studying the whole Qur'an. But in the amount that I have, it seems to me that Allah finds it blasphemous to address a son to him. Jesus (PBUH), was one of the most powerful Messengers sent by God. I have no disagreement there. I cannot call myself a Muslim, if I do not believe that Jesus (PBUH) was among the previous messengers sent by Allah.
For Allah tells us in Chapter 2 of the Holy Qur'an:
135. They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."
136. Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
N.B. Definition of Islam is important for that one (136).
Bro Scott, I'm not force feeding anyone if you're getting that impression. But I believe that a lot has been changed since the Gospel (not Bible) and Torah (not Talmud). And yes... it would be insane... if "I" told Christians they didn't understand their own faith.
Peace be upon you.
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Scott1
Well-Known Member
Super... then start a thread and talk about that... hardly seems relevant to the OP.
Much better... in my opinion, a faith should stand on its own... not as the "least wrong" of the other options.
... and I continue to wait for anyone to speak towards the information I provided, and not simply offer more personal opinions about other verses.
Ghostaka
Active Member
Oh you're right btw. Lol thanks.
Well I must have missed out on the information in question bro! Are you talking about post #15?
Peace be upon you.
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Sure....
... or either of these:
John 20:28 - Jesus accepts Thomas' statement "My Lord and my God!" Literally, "the Lord of me and the God of me!" (in Greek, "Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou").
Rev. 4:9-11; 5:8,12-14; 7:11-12 - both Jesus and the Father are worshiped. The Greek word for worship is "proskuneo" which always means the worship of God.
Or feel free to move on to the critisism about the validity of the texts and their many changes ---- contrary to the Koran, of course.
Or did I get the script wrong? (Now that was sarcasm.
)
Ghostaka
Active Member
Sure....
... or either of these:
John 20:28 - Jesus accepts Thomas' statement "My Lord and my God!" Literally, "the Lord of me and the God of me!" (in Greek, "Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou").
Rev. 4:9-11; 5:8,12-14; 7:11-12 - both Jesus and the Father are worshiped. The Greek word for worship is "proskuneo" which always means the worship of God.
Or feel free to move on to the critisism about the validity of the texts and their many changes ---- contrary to the Koran, of course.
Or did I get the script wrong? (Now that was sarcasm.
Lol, we'll you'd be partly right there about the sarcasm.
However, in my version I would add "Your 'information' is not of the unequivocal or unambiguous words of Jesus (PBUH)
" You see, he (PBUH) himself does not claim it (devinity).
Peace be upon you.
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Oy vey....
So you choose to ignore the many examples of his divinity ... even those examples by his own mouth... because he does not say the specific words you are looking for?
:ignore:
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
No.
There are a few verses here and there that "hint" at Jesus being divine for some - but I don't really see these as proof Jesus is supposed to be God - things like "The Father and I are one", which is a rather cryptic verse, but could easily be unity in purpose (e.g., "What I do, I do for God's purpose).
Some of the verses though, do not come from Jesus' mouth, but are attributed to other authors.
Indeed, you would think Jesus would say "By the way, I am God, here's the proof", but he never does.
Personally, I take (for example) the term "son of God" to mean "rasul/abdullah".
Oh eselam, for shame!
Unbound Bible - this site has an Albanian translation of the Bible (you may have the problem a lot of people have though, in that the wording can be REALLY difficult to understand). Jesus' sayings are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John - if you feel like a read, anyway.
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Ghostaka
Active Member
edit: I just noticed that I may have said "you choose to ignore the many examples of his non-divinity.... which are all examples by his own mouth" Just saying... because if being a Christian is to follow what Jesus (PBUH) says himself, then we Muslims are more Christain than the Christian themselves
I have given the same accusation to many atheists who have questioned me about the scientific miracles in the Qur'an. But you see a claim to be God is serious (we'll at least for me). Looking for certain... and remember unequivocal statements... is necessary in this respect.
I think you said earlier that the Church would define the dogma. But isn’t that experience shaped in the first place by the acceptance of the dogma.... that Jesus(PBUH) is divine?
Isn’t that like the church saying that you have to accept the post-Jesus, (assuming) man-made dogma that he is divine, so that you can experience this “truth”, which in turn will be your proof that he is divine?
:help: I don't understand.
Peace be upon you.
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Scott1
Well-Known Member
Rrrright.
Well, we had some folks waiting for Jesus to say the exact words "I am divine"... and a few others that wanted him to put it to music.... but the group decided that common sense would rule the day:
When a fella claims to be "Lord of the Sabbath" and answers to "my Lord and my God" methinks one should either think he is completely insane or is actually Lord (read: divine)..... and certainly not a "prophet".
All with Peter to Jesus through Mary,
Scott
Ghostaka
Active Member
Lol the same can be said for the use of common sense with those examples lol.
Ah snap. We're at a stalemate.
Oh I've got a question. Can you clarify my thoughts on:
The (sorry I have to say: supposed) crucifixion of Jesus (PBUH).
In order for him to die on that cross, the human part of him would have to die right!? But then that means it could not have been a "perfect sacrifice" (a term a came across in some thread in the past). I didn't get this part. Because if it was the god part that died, then the world would have been godless for 3 days. No One to sustain the earth for 3 days!!? I say this because I believe that God is the Sustainer of everything. But if Jesus (PBUH) and the Father is one, I don't see that working! edit: There must be some sort of separation.
Peace be upon you.
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Scott1
Well-Known Member
Holy tap dance, Batman!
Let me get this right...
Muslim A walks up to Muslim B and calls him "My Lord and my God"
Muslim B accepts this worship and does not correct him...
... and just as long as Muslim B does not actualy utter the specific phrase "I am Allah" he did nothing wrong?
Think anyone is buying this?
**EDIT**
Sure... soon as you start another thread
Ghostaka
Active Member
Lol.
Let me get this right...
Muslim A walks up to Muslim B and asks "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
Muslim B asks "Why do you ask me about what is good?" ... and then corrects him by saying "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter Life, obey the commandments."
... and despite Muslim B saying that there is one One who is good. Muslim A disregards him and calls him devine?
Think anyone is buying this?
What were the commandments Scott!?? The ones brought by Moses (PBUH) i.e. to Believe that there is only One God. And many more....
This is why batman said we were at a stalemate:ninja: << Batman still in training in the Movie: Batman Begins!?
Peace be upon you.[FONT="]
[/FONT]
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Scott1
Well-Known Member
Not for a second... they certainly will notice you can't answer my questions and choose to offer unrelated verses in the apparent hope they won't notice that this Jesus fella seems to have multiple-personality disorder... but will be convinced he is a Muslim prophet. :areyoucra
Ghostaka
Active Member
Answering what questions bro?! When I give you examples you tell me that I'm "twisting" them and call them "unrelated". :areyoucra For that matter, you haven't addressed my examples either!
p.s. did you mean to say I'm convinced that Jesus (PBUH) was Muslim?
Peace be upon you.
Ghostaka
Active Member
Same here Scott, it was a nice debate while it lasted. Until next time, my crime fighting comrade! :super::ninja:
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Why is that, Ghostaka? What is so abhorant about God having a Son? Aside from the argument of whether He does or not, why does the idea seem so horrible to you? Would it make Him any less than He is?