did Jesus ever say he was god?

[Peggy Anne]

"Father, why hast thou forsaken me?" Who is Jesus addressing ? If jesus is the son of god, he should have the inside track on what god is planning. Correct ?

 

[Katzpur]

"Father, why hast thou forsaken me?" Who is Jesus addressing ? If jesus is the son of god, he should have the inside track on what god is planning. Correct ?

Not necessarily. The Bible points out time and time again that the Son takes directions from His Father, does what His Father tells him, learns from what He has seen His Father do, etc. It even says that His Father knows the exact date on which He will return to the Earth, but that He doesn't.

 

[Mister Emu]

Correct ?

The Bible says He made Himself of no reputation and took on the form of a servant...

I take that to mean He limited Himself in some ways for the incarnation...

 

[gwk230]

and I continue to wait for anyone to speak towards the information I provided, and not simply offer more personal opinions about other verses.

Sure, I’ll take a stab at it…………..


Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.


I understand it in both instances that Helel spoke of what “Yah your Elohim” would do if Yahshua were to jump off the top of the Temple. To me this in no way points to any divinity of Yahshua but actually the opposite being that Helel himself knew that if Yahshua was to jump that Yahshua did not have the power of himself to save himself but would need the help of his father’s malachem.


Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."


I understand this as by Yahshua saying “but I say to you” is no more showing any divinity than if you, which you have and are doing, saying the exact same thing when you are attempting to get everybody here to believe your own personal understandings. Yahshua was not only raised to be the Moshiach, but was a teacher of the Torah. He taught the organic true word of Elohim without the tampering of man through their traditions of their so called elders. Man always seems to put things in an understanding that best suits his own whims.


Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.


I further understand the word Kurios in Greek is more defined as a respectful title as in Mr., Sovereign, Master or simply Sir. This again in no way points to any divinity of Yahshua. Actually “lord” in Hebrew is “Baal” which is never to be used in addressing Elohim. It’s an abomination unto Yah.


Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.


As Yahshua answered the certain scribes……..


Mat 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?


I understand what he is saying here is that he hasn’t forgiven the sins but by that individuals faith their sin has been taken away. This has in turn cured them of their deformities or whatever ill they may suffer. Also to have been given permission and power from Elohim to perform miracles is not the same as having divinity. Even the disciples were allowed to perform miracles as well as the apostles later.


Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law which means He is God.


I was going to say that only a test tube baby would fit this bill but the sperm of man must be used to perform even this act I believe. All men on the face of this planet are “Sons of man”. I do not understand how anyone could look at this in the way you have offered for Yahshua himself even stated that………


Mar 2:27 He said to them, "The Shabbat was made for man, not man for the Shabbat.


This is just before the verse you offered and I, for the life of me, cannot see any inkling of divinity of Yahshua in this verse. If by these two verses makes Yahshua divine then all of man is divine. Hogwash.


Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.


Oh you got me here. This couldn’t at all simply mean that, let’s say, if one was to do as his father did and taught him growing up, but now his father is asleep in the grave, but yet he continues to perform things as his father did and taught him, that it could be said that his father is in the mist of him? No it couldn’t at all mean that can it now? I understand it as he is kinda like showing the image of his father through his works. If two or more come together and pray to Yah for something in the name of the grace that he has so mercifully been bestowed upon us, who believe and obey, that being the name of his only begotten son of the dead, which is Yahshua Ha Moshiach Ben Daweed, then it will be granted unto them as by the will of Yah. Again, no instance of any divinity of Yahshua seen here either.

 

[gwk230]

Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of them."


Again it is simply “Master” or even just “Mr. or Sir”. It would be completely silly to believe this in some way points to any divinity of Yahshua.


Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.


Try these on for size……


Joh_1:12; Rom_8:14; Rom_8:19; Php_2:15; 1Jn_3:1; 1Jn_3:2


Anyone that does as Elohim commands and believes is the same. “Son of Elohim”


Once again, no sign of divinity where Yahshua is of concern.


Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.


He is only in the mist, as has already been explained, of those that do the will, the Torah, of his father, Yah, and believes on him. And where in all of the bible does it state that Yah is omnipresent? I see omnipotent in Rev 19:6.


Oh and Ignatius of Antioch and Justin Martyr are really of not much consequence to me as I understand them to be those that have perverted the truth to meet their own gnostic ideals.


John 20:28 - Jesus accepts Thomas' statement "My Lord and my God!" Literally, "the Lord of me and the God of me!" (in Greek, "Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou").


Again, we have the titles “Master” and “El” which is and has been shown to have been bestowed upon many as a form of respect. There again is no point here in making anything out of any so called divinity of Yahshua.


Rev. 4:9-11; 5:8,12-14; 7:11-12 - both Jesus and the Father are worshiped. The Greek word for worship is "proskuneo" which always means the worship of God.


I fail to see where Yahshua was worshipped. I see where there are those that fell down before Yahshua as a subject would their King out of reverence but I neither see nor read that any worshipped him. I do see where it is stated that they worshipped the one who lived forever that being Elohim.


Again I see no divinity in any and all of what you have thus far offered.


No offence ever intended to anyone but this reply, of course, is of my understanding as of the way I have been taught and it is a foregone conclusion that it will differ greatly from any man made religious belief whether it be of the gnostic christian or the so called rabbinical judaic understandings because it isn’t coming from what man thinks and feels but what is simply written within the correct context.

 

[Gharib]

No.
There are a few verses here and there that "hint" at Jesus being divine for some - but I don't really see these as proof Jesus is supposed to be God - things like "The Father and I are one", which is a rather cryptic verse, but could easily be unity in purpose (e.g., "What I do, I do for God's purpose).

i too am begining to think it's something like that. you can't have one verse saying he is god and one saying he is not. i totally agree with you.

Some of the verses though, do not come from Jesus' mouth, but are attributed to other authors.

is this the explanation behind some people thinking jesus is god and some thinking he is the son? in relation to your first statement?

Indeed, you would think Jesus would say "By the way, I am God, here's the proof", but he never does.

you just gave me an interesting idea to a question.

is the bible from jesus or god?

Personally, I take (for example) the term "son of God" to mean "rasul/abdullah".

is there any possibility that the term 'son of god' has actually said 'rasul' but has been lost in translation?

Oh eselam, for shame!

Unbound Bible - this site has an Albanian translation of the Bible (you may have the problem a lot of people have though, in that the wording can be REALLY difficult to understand). Jesus' sayings are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John - if you feel like a read, anyway.

i recon i'll check it out. thank you for that.

 

[Gharib]

Some of the verses though, do not come from Jesus' mouth, but are attributed to other authors.

do all christians agree to this as being true?

i think i should make a poll on this.

 

[Breathe]

i too am begining to think it's something like that. you can't have one verse saying he is god and one saying he is not. i totally agree with you.

is this the explanation behind some people thinking jesus is god and some thinking he is the son? in relation to your first statement?

There are some verses like, "In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was God ... and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" which are used as evidence. However, these are not Jesus' words, but those of one of the authors, the author of John - this verse is probably an attempt at mixing Hellenic and Semitic beliefs together.

I myself am of the view that this would probably say "The word was with God and in God" or something like that, or that this "word" does not refer to Jesus' existence as part of God, but that God is abstract (like a word), but God chose for one of His most important prophets to dwell amongst us - a prophet could be called the word of God, surely?

you just gave me an interesting idea to a question.

is the bible from jesus or god?

I believe it to be similar to the Qur'an in terms of origin - said by man, written by others, but ultimately with a Divine origin. Sadly, man attempted to make the message of Jesus known with certain groups, and would use non-Jewish ideas, and paid the price for it with what we have today.

is there any possibility that the term 'son of god' has actually said 'rasul' but has been lost in translation?

Well, throughout the Bible there is the word 'son' in different ways - not in a literal sense. My favourite for this is Genesis 15:2 (note: I used "Young's Literal Translation" for these).

Spoiler: Bible quotes

Genesis 15:2 - [acquired] son in my house - a servant of the house
Judges 19:22: sons of Belial - wicked men
1 Samuel 20:31 - son of death - will/deserves to die
Zechariah 4:14 - sons of oil - annointed ("messiah")

I believe that it has probably always said "son of God", but that it does not refer to a literal sense (the whole "but he didn't have a human father" holds little weight as proof Jesus is God's son, since there was no intercourse, nor does God have any, well.. you know, it doesn't make sense) but that it should be understood as servant, and probably implies a closeness to God.

i recon i'll check it out. thank you for that.

You're welcome. Let me know if it's a weird or difficult-to-understand translation, like some of them

do all christians agree to this as being true?
i think i should make a poll on this.

Lol, I'm not Christian my friend. I suppose they would hold that as true that Jesus never said them except for the occasional verse that you may understand as "showing" Jesus is God.

 

[Vile Atheist]

isn't it a bit strange to say that a devine being can die?

how can god die? thats impossible.

Since Scott hasn't gotten to this one yet, I'll answer what I know.

The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus is "100% human and 100% divine". At least this is what I learned from religious instruction at Catholic schools. This is a concept I've never understood, so your best bet would be to ask him about it as he'd be able to explain it better than me.

To be honest, I'm a little curious about it too. It has always baffled me.

In any case, I think it means that Jesus is God incarnate on Earth. Jesus is in the form of a human (mortal) but has powers of the divine (immortal). Scott will certainly correct me if I'm wrong.

If that is correct, that would make Jesus/God a schizophrenic as per the Garden of Gethsemane, where Jesus pleads to God (Himself?) to spare him while he's fully expecting a reply.

I don't think Jesus and God are one and the same, personally.

 

[Gharib]

Since Scott hasn't gotten to this one yet, I'll answer what I know.

The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus is "100% human and 100% divine". At least this is what I learned from religious instruction at Catholic schools. This is a concept I've never understood, so your best bet would be to ask him about it as he'd be able to explain it better than me.

To be honest, I'm a little curious about it too. It has always baffled me.

In any case, I think it means that Jesus is God incarnate on Earth. Jesus is in the form of a human (mortal) but has powers of the divine (immortal). Scott will certainly correct me if I'm wrong.

If that is correct, that would make Jesus/God a schizophrenic as per the Garden of Gethsemane, where Jesus pleads to God (Himself?) to spare him while he's fully expecting a reply.

I don't think Jesus and God are one and the same, personally.

one reason why i don't agree to jesus being a mortal with immortal powers is that, when an angel takes the human form (by gods will) it doesn't have super powers such as travelling at the speed of light (the islamic perspective is that angels are made from light so it would be logical to say they travel at the speed of light, but Allah knows best) or flying. unless it is back in the original form.

my main point about the above is that a devine creature (not god) has limited powers when in a human form or worldly form. fantasy doesn't exist in reality, but a logical way to explain jesuss' "super powers" is to use the islamic perspective, it was gods doing through jesus.

 

[Vile Atheist]

one reason why i don't agree to jesus being a mortal with immortal powers is that, when an angel takes the human form (by gods will) it doesn't have super powers such as travelling at the speed of light (the islamic perspective is that angels are made from light so it would be logical to say they travel at the speed of light, but Allah knows best) or flying. unless it is back in the original form.

my main point about the above is that a devine creature (not god) has limited powers when in a human form or worldly form. fantasy doesn't exist in reality, but a logical way to explain jesuss' "super powers" is to use the islamic perspective, it was gods doing through jesus.

Or the more obvious question of if Jesus is God, then God sacrificed himself on Earth to change a rule he himself created. Sounds absurd? If so, you now see all religion through my eyes.

 

[Gharib]

Or the more obvious question of if Jesus is God, then God sacrificed himself on Earth to change a rule he himself created. Sounds absurd? If so, you now see all religion through my eyes.

yes i understand you perspective now. it actually makes sense.

 

[Heneni]

i say they are not equal. my reason is that if he was then why would he pray unto the father to send the comforter to us. clearly stating that he and the father is not equal.

this is but one example that the gospels are full of

How does talking to someone make you unequal to them?

 

[sojourner]

so i'm guessing there are verses in the bible that clearly state this?

Why do there have to be?

 

[sojourner]

why are they not?

us humans are equal, equality is a big part in having a good bussines run smooth.

since they are not equal, who is the biggest share holder out of the 2? i'm guessing god, which means he calls the shots, is this correct?

You're misunderstanding the nature of God, in the Xian POV. God (Deity) is greater than Jesus (fully human). God (Deity) is equal to Christ (fully Divine). Jesus has two natures: a fully human nature and a fully Divine nature. The fully human nature is subordinate to God. The fully Divine nature is equal to the Father. (Hint: In this instance, "God" and "Father" are not interchangeable. "God" refers to Deity as a whole. "Father" refers to that person of God that is distinct from the Son, which is also that person of God that is distinct from the Father.

isn't it a bit strange to say that a devine being can die?

how can god die? thats impossible.

Isn't it a bit strange to say that a human being can live eternally? How can a man be born again? That's impossible ... Except, with God, all things are possible.

 

[sojourner]

i'm feeling the need as to be sure whether this stuff is just made up with no real proof, or there is a verse or verses that state this?

The Bible isn't "proof."
Why do you feel the need to "prove" God's nature???

 

[sojourner]

but the church must have a source where it can link it's statements to.

It does:
1) Jesus
2) The Apostles' teaching

if the bible doesn't say that jesus says he is god, but the church wants it to say, and make it up but have nothing to reference it to. then thats made up. it's not true.

Not all things are in the Bible. The reference is the Apostolic teaching that is "extra-Biblical."

 

[sojourner]

so does this verse mean that they are 2 gods, or that jesus is the one god?

Jesus is the one God in human form. The Father is the one God in spirit form. The Holy Spirit is God indwelling in humanity.

 

[sojourner]

It means that they are two distinct beings who are united as "one" in will and purpose. They also share the title of "God." In the Bible, Jesus consistently acknowledges His Father as being greater than He is and even refers to Him as "my God." On the other hand, in one verse (I'd have to look it up to be able to quote it verbatim), God the Father addresses His Son, Jesus Christ, and says, "Thy throne, oh God..."

Katz, I know you're non-Trinitarian, and I respect that. But his question refers to the Trinity. And Trinitarian doctrines states that the Father and the Son are one Being in two persons. The Being of the Son is not separate from the Being of the Father. Just FYI and to clarify for purposes of this thread -- not your own beliefs.

 

[sojourner]

does god in christianity have a name or names?

The closest we come is the ancient Assyrian name El. the tetragrammaton of Hebrew (YHVH -- which is "unpronounceable" is also used. The "common" pronunciation of this name is "Jehovah."
Mostly, though, we use titles: God, Lord, Creator, Father, etc.