did Jesus ever say he was god?

[Kurt31416]

In the Gospel of Thomas, older than the others by decades, Jesus explicitly says he's not God.

 

[Heneni]

In the Gospel of Thomas, older than the others by decades, Jesus explicitly says he's not God.

If he said that it would be nice to have a verse and a reference and a link...?

But naturally jesus had to give up, strip himself, of his glory he had in heaven in order to be born a man. Naturally he did not have the same glory as his father in heaven. But he did say...this shortly before he was crucified:

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

He and his father had the same glory, and all that have the same glory are of the same kind. Jesus was god before the creation of the world, stripped himself of that glory and became a man, and asked the father to restore it to him again before he was crucified.

Heneni

 

[Katzpur]

Katz, I know you're non-Trinitarian, and I respect that. But his question refers to the Trinity. And Trinitarian doctrines states that the Father and the Son are one Being in two persons. The Being of the Son is not separate from the Being of the Father. Just FYI and to clarify for purposes of this thread -- not your own beliefs.

Sojourner, I believe the question refers to the Christian interpretation of John 10:30. Since I am a Christian and believe John 10:30 to be a true statement, I believe that my input is pertinent to the discussion.

 

[Kurt31416]

If he said that it would be nice to have a verse and a reference and a link...?

Ok.

(15) Jesus says: "When you see one who was not born of woman,
fall on your face (and) worship him. That one is your Father." Thomas 15
Gospel of Thomas - Patterson & Robinson Translation -- Nag Hammadi Library

Everyone agrees Jesus was born of woman, including The Gospel of Thomas. (Except the second century Gnostics.)

 

[Heneni]

Everyone agrees Jesus was born of woman, including The Gospel of Thomas. (Except the second century Gnostics.)

Hi kurt. I can fully understand why jesus said that. He did not have the same glory as his father while here on earth, but he had it before the creation of the earth and he will have it/has it again. Thats why he did not tell anybody to worship him. People are like that, you tell them you are god and they will think all gods come in human form and start to worship men!

 

[Katzpur]

Revelation 1:7-8 Jesus was the Almighty.
Genesis 17:1 And the Almighty was God.

John 8:58 Jesus was the "I Am"
Exodus 3:14 and the "I Am" was God

Acts 3:14 Jesus was the "HOLY ONE"
Isaiah 43:15 and the "HOLY ONE" was God

John 8:24 Jesus is the "I Am He"
Isaiah 43:10 and the "I Am He" was God

Revelation 22:13 Jesus is the "First and the Last"
Isaiah 44:6 and the "First and the Last" was God

I Corinthians 10:4 Jesus was "The Rock"
Psalm 18:31 and "The Rock" was God

II Corinthians 11:2 Jesus was the "One HUSBAND"
Jeremiah 31:32 and the "One HUSBAND" was God

Matthew 23:8 Jesus was the "ONE MASTER"
Malachi 1:6 and the "ONE MASTER" was God

John 10:16 Jesus was the "One SHEPHERD"
Isaiah 40:11 and the "ONE SHEPHERD" was God

Acts 4:12 Jesus was the "ONE SAVIOR"
Isaiah 45:21 and the "ONE SAVIOR" was God

Luke 1:68 Jesus was the "ONE REDEEMER"
Isaiah 41:14 and the "ONE REDEEMER" was God

Revelation 19:16 Jesus was "LORD OF LORDS
1 Timothy 6:14 Jesus was "LORD OF LORDS
Deuteronomy 10:17 and the "LORD OF LORDS" was God

Philippians 2:10 Every knee must bow to Jesus
Isaiah 45:23 Every knee must bow to God

John 1: 3-10 Jesus was the "ONE CREATOR"
Isaiah 44:24 The Lord your Redeemer was the "ONE CREATOR"
Genesis 1:1 and the "ONE CREATOR" was God

John 1:49 Jesus was "KING OF ISRAEL"
Isaiah 44:6 and the "KING OF ISRAEL" was God

So, Heneni, could you clarify your point in posting these scriptures? I ask because I could very well have quoted exactly the same verses to support what would probably be an entirely different perspective.

 

[Heneni]

So, Heneni, could you clarify your point in posting these scriptures? I ask because I could very well have quoted exactly the same verses to support what would probably be an entirely different perspective.

Its pretty self-explanitory. Jesus is god.

 

[Katzpur]

Hi kurt. I can fully understand why jesus said that. He did not have the same glory as his father while here on earth, but he had it before the creation of the earth and he will have it/has it again. Thats why he did not tell anybody to worship him. People are like that, you tell them you are god and they will think all gods come in human form and start to worship men!

He may have the same glory, but He was subordinate to His Father pre-mortally when He created the universe under His Father's direction, and He is still subordinate to His Father, since His Father knows the exact time when He will return to Earth and He doesn't.

 

[Katzpur]

Its pretty self-explanitory. Jesus is god.

Sure, He's God. But what is His relationship to God the Father?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

He may have the same glory, but He was subordinate to His Father pre-mortally when He created the universe under His Father's direction, and He is still subordinate to His Father, since His Father knows the exact time when He will return to Earth and He doesn't.

If I may, it appears you are trying to rationalize an infinite wise God with a finite mind. Often times it is best just to agere to disagree, as it better serves to Love each other when discussing such things.
If God is Jesus, and contrawise, we could never full yunderstand how that can be. Much like we will never understand how or why Satan fell. Maybe in the next life we will, but for now, let's just Love each other!

 

[Katzpur]

If I may, it appears you are trying to rationalize an infinite wise God with a finite mind.

Not really. I believe traditional Christianity has made God far more unknowable than He wants to be. Obviously, there are a million things we can't understand about Him, but why do we have to make mysteries of the things we can know?

Often times it is best just to agere to disagree, as it better serves to Love each other when discussing such things.

I agree. I would far rather bow out of a debate than offend someone by being a jerk. But so far, I don't think I've been a jerk, and if I've offended anybody, nobody's told me so.

If God is Jesus, and contrawise, we could never full yunderstand how that can be.

Why not?

Much like we will never understand how or why Satan fell.

I thought most Christians agreed on this point? Wasn't it that He rebelled against God?

Maybe in the next life we will, but for now, let's just Love each other!

I can go along with that. :hug:

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Why not?

Why can we not understand God and Jesus being the same thing. Well we can grasp the concept, but to fully understand it, it is not possible. For example, How can God kill himself, or be under his own judgment? That just doesn't make sense. All we can do is say, it's God so it isn't a problem for Him. I agree! However, it is still not something that pertains to the rules of our universe. It is purely unique to God.
Does that make more sense?

I thought most Christians agreed on this point? Wasn't it that He rebelled against God?

Looking deeper into the matter, how could a perfect God allow such a thing. Why would Satan want to do such a thing?
Though people speculate on these answers, there just isn't anything biblically to give a definitive answer, other than to say it is God's will.

I can go along with that. :hug:

Groovy!

 

[Heneni]

He may have the same glory, but He was subordinate to His Father pre-mortally when He created the universe under His Father's direction, and He is still subordinate to His Father, since His Father knows the exact time when He will return to Earth and He doesn't.

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god and the word WAS god. Doesnt sound like subordination to me katzpur.

Can you give scripture in the bible to show that jesus was doing the creation bits under his father direction?

Heneni

 

[Heneni]

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.

I agree that the son was subordinate to the father while he was here on earth, but he was not subordinate before the world was created.

In heaven does subordinance have any meaning? What does subordinance mean in heaven?

 

[Heneni]

Sure, He's God. But what is His relationship to God the Father?

In heaven, to be subordinate doesnt mean there is hierachy as we understand hierchy on earth. In heaven god is the top man because god does not need anything from any other being in order to be alive or to sustain himself.

If jesus was subordinate to the father before the creation, he would have relied on the father for his life, his wisdom and his power. But jesus is the wisdom of god, he is the life. He did not get those things from the father he was self-sufficient

On earth a son of a father is dependant on the father to provide for him. In heaven before the creation of the world, the son, jesus was not relying on the father for his existance. He was self-existant, eternal.

When jesus came to earth, he was subordinate to the father, because he depended on the father to tell him what he must say, tell him what he must do, and to give him resurrection life. That was when jesus was subordinate to the father, because jesus was on the receiving end. The giver is always in a higher position than the taker.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

There are two (2) thrones mentioned at Revelation 3:21. Jesus talks of his throne, and his Father in His throne. Also, in verse 12, four times, Jesus calls God as "his (my) God"....

Jesus was already in heaven for decades when Revelation was written and at Rev (2:18) Jesus still refers to himself as the Son of God.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god and the word WAS god. Doesnt sound like subordination to me katzpur.

Can you give scripture in the bible to show that jesus was doing the creation bits under his father direction?

Heneni

Please see: Colossians (1:15,16)

Also please note in verse 15 that in the heavens Jesus is called the firstborn of every creature. God was not born but from everlasting according to Psalm 90:2.

Revelation (3:14b) says Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god and the word WAS god. Doesnt sound like subordination to me katzpur

Heneni

The same Greek grammar rule applies to John 1:1 as in Acts 28:6 B.

Yes, in the beginning (Rev 3:14b) was the Word. No where does it say the Word was 'before' the beginning. According to Psalms ( 90:2; 41:13; 106:48) only God was before the beginning.

 

[Heneni]

There are two (2) thrones mentioned at Revelation 3:21. Jesus talks of his throne, and his Father in His throne. Also, in verse 12, four times, Jesus calls God as "his (my) God"....

Jesus was already in heaven for decades when Revelation was written and at Rev (2:18) Jesus still refers to himself as the Son of God.

So, because there are two thrones the one is for the subordinate? Kings and queens use to sit next to each other, the queen did not sit lower than the king. So the position of the throne does not say much.

In any event the position of the throne did not make jesus god, his glory and self-sufficiency did. His title didnt make him god, his self-sufficiency did.

They are both god and jesus is the son because he reflects perfectly the father in every way. He did not get his life from his father, like we do from ours. He did not need his father to bring him something, he was self-sufficient as his father was.... So the title 'son of god' does not make him subordinate.

At one point jesus said,that the father is their god and his god, he was spot on. The father was his god while he was in human form, because he received his life from the father, did what the father told him, said what the father told him, obeyed his father in all things which indicates that while on earth he was subordinate to the father because he received from the father everything he said and did.

Jesus says: MY god and YOUR god.

He did not say OUR god.

In fact the only time jesus referenced the father as OURs was when he told the disciples how they should pray before his crucifixtion. They should pray OUR (that is the disciples) father who art in heaven..... But jesus became their father after the crucifixtion because he gave them new birth, which is also why he said...if you have see me you have seen the father. Their father.

 

[Katzpur]

Why can we not understand God and Jesus being the same thing. Well we can grasp the concept, but to fully understand it, it is not possible.

Well, I believe that Jesus is "God." I just don't believe He is the "same thing" as His Father. I believe He is the Only Begotten Son of the Father." I see "God" as a synonym for "Godhead," and Godhead as a collective noun.

For example, How can God kill himself, or be under his own judgment? That just doesn't make sense. All we can do is say, it's God so it isn't a problem for Him. I agree! However, it is still not something that pertains to the rules of our universe. It is purely unique to God. Does that make more sense?

I'm sorry, but it doesn't. When you say "God," are you referring to God the Father? It would help if you could explain which person of the Godhead to whom you are referring. I don't believe that when Jesus was in Gethsemane, He was praying to himself? Do you? I don't believe He asked himself to forgive those who nailed Him to the cross. Do you? I don't believe He commended his Spirit into His own hands. Do you? I don't believe He referred to himself as His own God or said that He was greater than himself. Do you?

Looking deeper into the matter, how could a perfect God allow such a thing.

I don't see a problem here at all. God merely gave Satan/Lucifer his free agency and Lucifer chose to use it to rebell against Him. What kind of a God would allow no choice between good and evil. And could anything good come from God forcing everyone to do good? How would "good" even exist if it had no opposite?

Why would Satan want to do such a thing?

He was obviously extremely proud and rebellious and thought he stood a fighting chance of getting what he wanted. Dumb guy.

Though people speculate on these answers, there just isn't anything biblically to give a definitive answer, other than to say it is God's will.

Perhaps not.