did Jesus ever say he was god?

[Katzpur]

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god and the word WAS god. Doesnt sound like subordination to me katzpur.

Can you give scripture in the bible to show that jesus was doing the creation bits under his father direction?

Heneni

I'll get back to you a bit later with the scripture. (I've got to sign off for awhile.) But tell me, when do you think God the Father ceased to be Jesus' God? He did, after all, refer to Him as "my God" when on Earth. Are you aware of any scriptural basis for assuming that the Father is no longer Jesus' God?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Sure....

... or either of these:

John 20:28 - Jesus accepts Thomas' statement "My Lord and my God!" Literally, "the Lord of me and the God of me!" (in Greek, "Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou").

Rev. 4:9-11; 5:8,12-14; 7:11-12 - both Jesus and the Father are worshiped. The Greek word for worship is "proskuneo" which always means the worship of God.

Or feel free to move on to the critisism about the validity of the texts and their many changes ---- contrary to the Koran, of course.

Or did I get the script wrong? (Now that was sarcasm. )

Before verse 28 please notice John (20:17) because Jesus already is stating that he will ascend to his (my) God. Jesus had already acknowledged he has a God just as he still believes that he has a God even after his resurrection to heaven in Revelation 3:12,21.

Often times we hear people exclaim "Oh my God'" when they witness something shocking. That does not mean they are addressing the person or persons in front of them as actually God.

Also worship in the broad sense can be relative or absolute.
Absolute worship only belongs to Almighty God.

In a relative sense it can mean to bow down to or do obeisance.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So, because there are two thrones the one is for the subordinate? Kings and queens use to sit next to each other, the queen did not sit lower than the king. So the position of the throne does not say much.

In any event the position of the throne did not make jesus god, his glory and self-sufficiency did. His title didnt make him god, his self-sufficiency did.

They are both god and jesus is the son because he reflects perfectly the father in every way. He did not get his life from his father, like we do from ours. He did not need his father to bring him something, he was self-sufficient as his father was.... So the title 'son of god' does not make him subordinate.
.

According to John (5:26) Jesus was Not always self-sufficient. Please notice that Jesus Father is immortal in that He has life within himself. Verse 26 goes on to say that the Father grants or gives to Jesus to have life in himself or immortality. Hebrews 9:24. Why would God give to Jesus something he already had, unless he already did Not have it?

Psalm (110:1) mentions two (2) LORD/Lord(s). One is in all capitals and one is not. Who are the two LORD/Lord's mentioned?

In the KJV where LORD is in all capitals is where the Tetragrammaton originally appeared LORD(YHWH).

 

[Heneni]

According to John (5:26) Jesus was Not always self-sufficient. Please notice that Jesus Father is immortal in that He has life within himself. Verse 26 goes on to say that the Father grants or gives to Jesus to have life in himself or immortality. Hebrews 9:24. Why would God give to Jesus something he already had, unless he already did Not have it?

Psalm (110:1) mentions two (2) LORD/Lord(s). One is in all capitals and one is not. Who are the two LORD/Lord's mentioned?

In the KJV where LORD is in all capitals is where the Tetragrammaton originally appeared LORD(YHWH).

Ok the scripture in hebrews says this:

Hebrews 9:24
. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence.

It seems to me that the scripture simply indicates why jesus entered the temple....'to appear FOR us in gods presence'. He was representing the reborn children of god in the presence of the father.

Consider this scripture:

Ephesians4:9
9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

How does christ, if he is not god, ascend higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe. Is god not the one that fills the whole universe?

Now the scripture in john: (not to be taken out of context). Here it is

John 5:25
25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

If jesus, on earth, in his subordinate state to the father, did not have life in himself, granted to him by the father above, as it should have been because on earth he was in a lower form, the form of a man, and therefore on the receiving end of whatever he needed from the father, then he would not have been able to give new life to those that were placed IN chirst on the cross.

The scripture in john5 talks about jesus on this earth, not jesus before the creation of the world. When jesus was born onto this earth, he lost his glory in heaven and came here as a man, but in order for him to save people, he had to be granted from the father the ability to have life in himself so that he could bring to life those who were placed IN christ on the cross and give them new life.

So as the father had life in himself, that same life was granted to jesus the christ on earth so that he could save others and give that life to them.

Heneni

 

[gwk230]

Revelation 1:7-8 Jesus was the Almighty.

I understand it as John giving praise to Yah and not Yahshua at this point being he had already said “amen” prior to making this comment.

Genesis 17:1 And the Almighty was God.

This is not how it is so worded in the Hebrew. It is rather El Shaddai. There is a large difference.

John 8:58 Jesus was the "I Am"

Exodus 3:14 and the "I Am" was God

These are two separate. First, in Ex 3:14 is Yah explaining to Moshe who to tell the sons of Yisrael that sent him and Yah said “HaYah Asher HaYah” or rather “I live therefore I exist”
Second, in Jn 8:58 the malach that possessed Yahshua on the day of his purification is the one doing the speaking and not the flesh and blood man Yahshua. This is the same malach as is considered the word in Jn 1:1. Just because this malach said that he existed in no way meant that he was Yah himself. You exist don’t you? Are you the one that created all things? I didn’t think so. But you could still say that you exist. I AM!!!!!

Acts 3:14 Jesus was the "HOLY ONE"

Isaiah 43:15 and the "HOLY ONE" was God

Yes, and there are many that the same can be said of. It simply means that they are righteous.

John 8:24 Jesus is the "I Am He"

Isaiah 43:10 and the "I Am He" was God

Anyone can say “I am he” and not mean the same “he” as Yah did in Is 43:10. Nonetheless, the word “am” is no mentioned in the Hebrew verse so quoted. Not to mention that the word “he” is not even in the Greek in Jn 8:24. I AM HE that just showed you this.

Revelation 22:13 Jesus is the "First and the Last"

Isaiah 44:6 and the "First and the Last" was God

Well first of all the one doing the speaking in the verse in Rev. is a malach or angel, if you will, and secondly there is nothing between these two verses that indicate the same entity. The one speaking in Is 44:6 is that of the creator and the one speaking in Rev 22:13 is that of the created. Both were in existence at the creation of the universe. Therefore both Yah and his malachem, being that which make up Elohim, are the Aleph and the Tov, or Alpha and the Omega, beginning and the end as well as the first and the last as concerning the universe. Yahshua, on the other hand, was only created at the conception of the seed of Daweed and the egg of Miriam. He was as all men. Flesh and blood.

I Corinthians 10:4 Jesus was "The Rock"

Psalm 18:31 and "The Rock" was God

Sorry, the rock in 1 Cor 10:4 that Yahshua is speaking of is the malach that showed the Hebrew Yisraelites the way through the wilderness. And the saying in Ps 18:31 is Daweed saying that Yah is his rock. You know, like an anchor or something that stabilizes you.

II Corinthians 11:2 Jesus was the "One HUSBAND"

Jeremiah 31:32 and the "One HUSBAND" was God

It is a manner of speaking. The Assembly of the Anointed is liken unto a bride as he is liken unto a bridegroom. As is the case of Yisrael as being the bride of Yah. Yah was like a husband unto Yisrael as he did take very good care of her. He took very good care of both his wives. Read about it all in Eze 16:1-63 and Eze 23:1-49 about how well he took care of his wives and how they repaid him for his love. What is so sad is that it continues unto this day.

Matthew 23:8 Jesus was the "ONE MASTER"

Malachi 1:6 and the "ONE MASTER" was God

In the Greek of Mat 23:8 the word “master” is simply “teacher” or “instructor” as in a master teacher as some consider their rabbi’s. In the Hebrew of Mal 1:6 the word “master” is used in the context of an owner of a slave. It is being stated as a question with the word ”if” as in “If I am a master then where is my reverence?” These are two different renderings altogether.

John 10:16 Jesus was the "One SHEPHERD"

Isaiah 40:11 and the "ONE SHEPHERD" was God

A father teaches his sons how to do certain things as he would have them done and a good son follows the instruction of his father so where we have Isa 40:10 which says that Yah’s arm will rule for him, which is his dispatch or malachem, we see that they have been so appointed to watch over his flock as a father that own sheep gives the task of watching over them to his sons so has Yah done so to his. Yahshua was considered the son of the father was he not? Yahshua was a good son was he not? Yahshua would have done exactly as his father requested would he not? I understood this to be so.

Acts 4:12 Jesus was the "ONE SAVIOR"

Isaiah 45:21 and the "ONE SAVIOR" was God

This in no way states that Yahshua can save without the father. It states by no other name and that is because it is how Yah has established his plan for the salvation of man. As Yahshua has said that what we ask of the father by his name it shall be given. So we now have a mediator and it isn’t a priest that some here on earth would say you would have to have over there in the vatican. Without Yah there is no savior or even a reason to be saved.

Luke 1:68 Jesus was the "ONE REDEEMER"

Isaiah 41:14 and the "ONE REDEEMER" was God

I don’t see the name of the Moshiach anywhere in this verse but I do see Yah Elohim of Yisrael which is the father which as it is so written has visited by way of his dispatch, the malachem, and has performed as Zacharias has so stated.

 

[gwk230]

Revelation 19:16 Jesus was "LORD OF LORDS

1 Timothy 6:14 Jesus was "LORD OF LORDS
Deuteronomy 10:17 and the "LORD OF LORDS" was God

What I have noticed is that when speaking of Yah as being “Adonai Adon” in the Hebrew then he is the highest of all in every sense of the meaning be it the universe or beyond but when we are speaking of Yahshua as being “Kurios Kurios” in the Greek is speaking of here on earth. One of two great examples is just before where it states “Adonai Adon” in the verse in Deu. 10:17 it states “El Elohim” as meaning that he is the highest power over all the powers. And just before it states “Kurios Kurios” in Rev 19:16 as well as 1 Tim 6:14 it states “Basileus Basileuo” meaning he is the king or ruler over all the other kings and rulers. What this all boils down to is the second of the two great examples which is this………

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know that the head of every man is the Anointed, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of the Anointed is Elohim.

One is master over one while one is master over another while one is master over a third and so on and so on. As in the military it is known as the chain of command. Here in the USA we have the President and then the vice president and so on and so on and so on.

Philippians 2:10 Every knee must bow to Jesus

Isaiah 45:23 Every knee must bow to God

Does not the subjects of a King not also respect the prince? How did the people of Mitsrayim treat Joseph after Pharaoh gave him power?

Gen 41:40 Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.

I bet they bowed out of respect and reverence unto the will of Pharaoh as I see as is stated in Phi 2:10 that the people and all in heaven Should do unto Yahshua as out of respect and reverence to the will of Yah.

John 1: 3-10 Jesus was the "ONE CREATOR"

Isaiah 44:24 The Lord your Redeemer was the "ONE CREATOR"
Genesis 1:1 and the "ONE CREATOR" was God

Jn 1:3-10 is speaking of the messengers of Elohim which are the malachem which were made by the utterances of the words of Yah which made them the word spoken of in Jn 1:1. The same have in them life which is the light of men and it is this light we understand to be the power of understanding, especially moral and spiritual truth and its knowledge, together with the spiritual purity associated with it. Here is another translation of the Greek that bears more understanding of the workers of Yah and what some of their duties are…….

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with Elohim.

We see that Elohim as, what some render the “god head”, being the powers that have been ordained by Yah. It’s kinda like a corporation where you have the head which is the CEO, in this case it is Yah, and then you have all of those positions there were created by the CEO under him. This, as a whole, is considered the corporation, and or in this case, Elohim. Yah created the Malachem to do his will. When the Malachem create or do anything they do it by the express will of Yah. This is where it is said that Elohim has created or done this or that.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by them; and without them was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In them was life; and the life was the light of men.

They created man so they not only made man to live but also gave them the faculties of knowledge and understandings as well.

Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

The truth has been declared unto all the world. The same is the Torah. Even to those who are dark inside their minds and have no comprehension of the light of truth continue to do that which is perverse to light which is darkness.

Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from Elohim, whose name was Yochanan.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of those Lights, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not those Lights, but was sent to bear witness of those Lights.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Lights, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 Those lights were in the world, and the world was made by them, and the world knew them not.
Joh 1:11 They came unto their own, and their own received them not.

Yes they came. They came and spoke through the prophets to Yisrael. But what did some of Yisrael do? They killed the prophets.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received them, to them gave they power to become the sons of Elohim, even to them that believe on their name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of Elohim.

This cannot be said of Yahshua for he was born of the blood.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld their glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So we see here where the Word, which is either all or just one of the Malachem, has became flesh. This occurred at Yahshua’s purification when the Word/Malach/Angel/Elohim came down and possessed Yahshua.

John 1:49 Jesus was "KING OF ISRAEL"

Isaiah 44:6 and the "KING OF ISRAEL" was God

We have already discussed the difference of being just a king and being a king of kings. Yah is the king of Yisrael but Yah has also given authority on earth to Yahshua. Its just at this point Yahshua is ruling his subjects in exile until Yah decides it’s time for him to come back as a lion and take his throne.


I in no way respond in trying to discredit anyone else’s beliefs and understandings but offer this as the understanding that I have acquired by the way I have been taught as a Sinaiticist observing and performing Sinaiticism. If my reply in some way offends others let it be known that it was never the intention and hope that they will find it in their heart to forgive me.

May Yah bless by his will.

 

[Heneni]

I understand it as John giving praise to Yah and not Yahshua at this point being he had already said “amen” prior to making this comment.



This is not how it is so worded in the Hebrew. It is rather El Shaddai. There is a large difference.



These are two separate. First, in Ex 3:14 is Yah explaining to Moshe who to tell the sons of Yisrael that sent him and Yah said “HaYah Asher HaYah” or rather “I live therefore I exist”
Second, in Jn 8:58 the malach that possessed Yahshua on the day of his purification is the one doing the speaking and not the flesh and blood man Yahshua. This is the same malach as is considered the word in Jn 1:1. Just because this malach said that he existed in no way meant that he was Yah himself. You exist don’t you? Are you the one that created all things? I didn’t think so. But you could still say that you exist. I AM!!!!!



Yes, and there are many that the same can be said of. It simply means that they are righteous.

John 8:24 Jesus is the "I Am He"

Isaiah 43:10 and the "I Am He" was God

Anyone can say “I am he” and not mean the same “he” as Yah did in Is 43:10. Nonetheless, the word “am” is no mentioned in the Hebrew verse so quoted. Not to mention that the word “he” is not even in the Greek in Jn 8:24. I AM HE that just showed you this.



Well first of all the one doing the speaking in the verse in Rev. is a malach or angel, if you will, and secondly there is nothing between these two verses that indicate the same entity. The one speaking in Is 44:6 is that of the creator and the one speaking in Rev 22:13 is that of the created. Both were in existence at the creation of the universe. Therefore both Yah and his malachem, being that which make up Elohim, are the Aleph and the Tov, or Alpha and the Omega, beginning and the end as well as the first and the last as concerning the universe. Yahshua, on the other hand, was only created at the conception of the seed of Daweed and the egg of Miriam. He was as all men. Flesh and blood.



Sorry, the rock in 1 Cor 10:4 that Yahshua is speaking of is the malach that showed the Hebrew Yisraelites the way through the wilderness. And the saying in Ps 18:31 is Daweed saying that Yah is his rock. You know, like an anchor or something that stabilizes you.



It is a manner of speaking. The Assembly of the Anointed is liken unto a bride as he is liken unto a bridegroom. As is the case of Yisrael as being the bride of Yah. Yah was like a husband unto Yisrael as he did take very good care of her. He took very good care of both his wives. Read about it all in Eze 16:1-63 and Eze 23:1-49 about how well he took care of his wives and how they repaid him for his love. What is so sad is that it continues unto this day.



In the Greek of Mat 23:8 the word “master” is simply “teacher” or “instructor” as in a master teacher as some consider their rabbi’s. In the Hebrew of Mal 1:6 the word “master” is used in the context of an owner of a slave. It is being stated as a question with the word ”if” as in “If I am a master then where is my reverence?” These are two different renderings altogether.



A father teaches his sons how to do certain things as he would have them done and a good son follows the instruction of his father so where we have Isa 40:10 which says that Yah’s arm will rule for him, which is his dispatch or malachem, we see that they have been so appointed to watch over his flock as a father that own sheep gives the task of watching over them to his sons so has Yah done so to his. Yahshua was considered the son of the father was he not? Yahshua was a good son was he not? Yahshua would have done exactly as his father requested would he not? I understood this to be so.



This in no way states that Yahshua can save without the father. It states by no other name and that is because it is how Yah has established his plan for the salvation of man. As Yahshua has said that what we ask of the father by his name it shall be given. So we now have a mediator and it isn’t a priest that some here on earth would say you would have to have over there in the vatican. Without Yah there is no savior or even a reason to be saved.



I don’t see the name of the Moshiach anywhere in this verse but I do see Yah Elohim of Yisrael which is the father which as it is so written has visited by way of his dispatch, the malachem, and has performed as Zacharias has so stated.

Yikes! I cant read that small print...can you edit your post with a bigger font maybe and repost?

 

[gwk230]

I disagree. By the time the Bible was written, there certainly was some understanding of the Divinity of Jesus.

And I disagree that Yahshua was divine. There is no scriptural proof to substantiate such a claim.

 

[gwk230]

Yikes! I cant read that small print...can you edit your post with a bigger font maybe and repost?

Copy and paste it in your word or whatever program and increase the size of the font to your hearts desire.

 

[Heneni]

Copy and paste it in your word or whatever program and increase the size of the font to your hearts desire.

....maybe later. Besides the copy and paste doesnt work all that well over the quote boxes. Not for me it doesnt...

I admire anybody that reads that post, and will respond to them in the future.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ok the scripture in hebrews says this:

Hebrews 9:24
. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence.

It seems to me that the scripture simply indicates why jesus entered the temple....'to appear FOR us in gods presence'. He was representing the reborn children of god in the presence of the father.

Consider this scripture:

Ephesians4:9
9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

How does christ, if he is not god, ascend higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe. Is god not the one that fills the whole universe?

Now the scripture in john: (not to be taken out of context). Here it is

John 5:25
25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

If jesus, on earth, in his subordinate state to the father, did not have life in himself, granted to him by the father above, as it should have been because on earth he was in a lower form, the form of a man, and therefore on the receiving end of whatever he needed from the father, then he would not have been able to give new life to those that were placed IN chirst on the cross.

The scripture in john5 talks about jesus on this earth, not jesus before the creation of the world. When jesus was born onto this earth, he lost his glory in heaven and came here as a man, but in order for him to save people, he had to be granted from the father the ability to have life in himself so that he could bring to life those who were placed IN christ on the cross and give them new life.

So as the father had life in himself, that same life was granted to jesus the christ on earth so that he could save others and give that life to them.

Heneni

Yes, in order to appear in God's presence, God would have to be a person to appear in front of Him or in front of His presence. Doesn't Hebrews (4:14) say Jesus passed into the heavens....?

Isn't the heavens of Eph (4:10) the direct heavens above us? The heavens where the birds fly? That verse does not say universe. Fill all things Jesus did as he fulfilled the Mosaic law and Jesus brings all things to fulfillment.

For example:
1st Cor (15:24-28) at the end of Jesus thousand-year reign over earth Jesus delivers up or hands over the kingdom back to God, and once our last enemy (verse 26) 'death' is brought to nothing (Rev 21:4), then as verse 28 says Jesus will subject himself to be subject unto Him that put all things under him, Why? that God may be all in all. God will be all things to everyone.
______________________________________________________


and John (5:28) continues: not to marvel that the hour is coming (Acts 24:15) when all those in the graves will hear Jesus voice. Verse 30 talks of two wills.
God's will and Jesus will. Two persons, two wills. Jesus seeks not his own will, but his Father's will. John (6:38) also mentions not one will, but two wills, as does Matthew (26:39) and Luke (22:42).

 

[Heneni]

For example:
1st Cor (15:24-28) at the end of Jesus thousand-year reign over earth Jesus delivers up or hands over the kingdom back to God, and once our last enemy (verse 26) 'death' is brought to nothing (Rev 21:4), then as verse 28 says Jesus will subject himself to be subject unto Him that put all things under him, Why? that God may be all in all. God will be all things to everyone.

I have matches keeping my eyelids open...so i will address the above part of your post first:

God is all sufficient. Jesus and the father and the HS, were self-sufficient before the universe was created. When the universe was created, all of the creation was put under subjection to christ, so that he may sustain and uphold it. He is always the giver, everything and everybody else is on the receiving end. All life comes from god, all perfect gifts come from god, all power and all authority was distributed from God. God gave authority and power to his son. Who in turns destroys all other power and authority. He must reign, UNTILL he has put all his enemies under his feet. When all enemies are under his feet there is no need to reign any longer over the kingdom any longer. But hands this kingdom back to the father.

Christ is the one that is reigning over the universe, the father is not. But the father subjected everything under the son, so the father gave that authority away to the son. Jesus had to loose part of his glory in order to receive from the father. He had to subject himself under the father in order to be on the receiving end! But the son only rules until he can render inoperative and abolish every rule and authority and power!

Now keeping that in mind. When jesus hands over the kingdom to the father, the father is then on the receiving end of something! So, when jesus hands over the kingdom he is exalted above god the father, in order to make the father the benefactor! He then subjects himself in turn to god the father so that he may receive equally that which he gave to the father so that they both, may fill everything with life.

9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,

 

[gwk230]

....maybe later. Besides the copy and paste doesnt work all that well over the quote boxes. Not for me it doesnt...

I admire anybody that reads that post, and will respond to them in the future.

I am in no hurry. Take your sweet time. I have a life time. :beach:

 

[Heneni]

I am in no hurry. Take your sweet time. I have a life time. :beach:

I hate to be a party pooper...but i fear you might wait a long time. I think you ought to ask for a tab.

 

[Katzpur]

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god and the word WAS god. Doesnt sound like subordination to me katzpur.

Can you give scripture in the bible to show that jesus was doing the creation bits under his father direction?

Heneni

Ephesians 3:8-9 states, "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ..."

And Hebrews 1:1-2 states, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds..."

Both of these imply that the Son acted under the authority of the Father in creating the universe.

Also, you must understand what I mean by "subordinate." I am thinking of subordination to me a lesser rank. Just as a colonel is subordinate to a general, Jesus Christ is subordinate to the Father. There are so many scriptures that teach this that I wouldn't know where to begin to list them all. Jesus has always and continues today to be obedient to His Father's commandments because His Father is also His God. At least that's what He said, and He didn't ever imply that this would someday cease to be the case. On the other hand, with respect to their nature, they are equal. I compared a colonel to a general to illustrate the way in which the Father is greater than the Son. But there is also another way to look at the word "subordinate," and that is with respect not to rank but to nature. In that regard, Jesus Christ is not subordinate to His Father. In that regard, He is His Father's equal. In other words, Jesus Christ is as fully divine as His Father is. He has all of the same godly attributes His Father does and is equally entitled to our honor and worship.

 

[gwk230]

I hate to be a party pooper...but i fear you might wait a long time. I think you ought to ask for a tab.

Its of no consequence to me. Whatever floats your boat. Please, take all the time in the world. :yes:

 

[Heneni]

Ephesians 3:8-9 states, "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ..."

Why would the creator have less glory than the father?

And Hebrews 1:1-2 states, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds..."

Ok so god spoke by way of the prophets before, and in the last days he changed tactics and spoke by way of his son. So the son is the way the father reveals his glory, and the son (in heaven) is has excactly the same glory as the glory of the father. Which made him the only suitable being to reveal the glory of the father. You cant reveal the glory of a higher being unless you can reflect the same glory.

If jesus is heir of all things, that puts him pretty much above the father if we want to talk hierchy here. Jesus cant be heir and the father rule over it. So that doesnt really make jesus subordinate, if anything it hints in the opposite direction.

Katzpur, the son was the one who would create things. How can he create unless he is god?

 

[gwk230]

Ephesians 3:8-9 states, "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ..."

No offence but the only issue we see with this verse is that of where it states "by Yahshua the anointed" where in the Greek it rather means "for Yahshua the anointed". But it is as to who translates it to their on agenda as I always say.

 

[Katzpur]

Why would the creator have less glory than the father?

I didn't say anything about Him having less "glory," Heneni. All of the divine qualities the Father had, the Son had, too. But the Father used the Son to create the universe, and the Son did as He was asked.

Ok so god spoke by way of the prophets before, and in the last days he changed tactics and spoke by way of his son. So the son is the way the father reveals his glory, and the son (in heaven) is an exact replication of the glory of the father. Which made him the only suitable being to reveal the glory of the father. You cant reveal the glory of a higher being unless you can reflect the same glory.

If jesus is heir of all things, that puts him pretty much above the father if we want to talk hierchy here. Jesus cant be heir and the father rule over it. So that doesnt really make jesus subordinate, if anything it hints in the opposite direction.

Katzpur, the son was the one who would create things. How can he create unless he is god?

Heneni, did you read all of my post of just the scriptures? I can't imagine how you could have misinterpreted what I said! I never implied that Jesus was not "God." He is God, but He also has a God. And His God is also His Father. I totally believe that He is an exact replication of the glory of His Father, but you can't have a replica without an original.

As to the business of His being the heir to all His Father has, I believe that, too. But the Father did not relinquish anything by giving it to the Son. He shared His power and glory, but it was His to share, not the other way around.

 

[Katzpur]

But it is as to who translates it to their on agenda as I always say.

Good point. :yes: