Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[Quantrill]

God is God, no matter what God may be. Rather empty...

God is God. Why empty? Because you don't decide on Who God is?

Quantrill

 

[Thief]

God is God. Why empty? Because you don't decide on Who God is?

Quantrill

Back to topic?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

God is God. Why empty? Because you don't decide on Who God is?

I believe he's saying this because you keep changing or mis-stating what God actually is. You don't even understand yourself what you think God is. You dislike being pinned down because you realize that once you are, the ideas are more easily shown to be in error.

 

[Quantrill]

I believe he's saying this because you keep changing or mis-stating what God actually is. You don't even understand yourself what you think God is. You dislike being pinned down because you realize that once you are, the ideas are more easily shown to be in error.

I have not changed or mistated what God is. And I understand completley my view of God. And I am willing and do declare it.

I don't mind being pinned down. I just tell the truth what the Bible says. You see error. I don't. I see God, you don't.

Quantrill

 

[Heathen Hammer]

No, you've avoided answering a number of questions from Fishy, Gjaller, Koldo and even Thief, for pete's sake. It's in print, it's not like we are misremembering some pub conversation from yesterday.

 

[fishy]

God is God. Why empty? Because you don't decide on Who God is?

Quantrill

But it seems you do.

 

[Quantrill]

No, you've avoided answering a number of questions from Fishy, Gjaller, Koldo and even Thief, for pete's sake. It's in print, it's not like we are misremembering some pub conversation from yesterday.

Im not aware of any quetions I have avoided. Im sure there are conclusions you have come to that I disregard, but I do attempt to answer all questions.

If your talking about getting into another discussion about Eden, that is for another thread.

If your talking about the demand for Bible verses, I give them at first. But once someone disregards those and simply ignores them, then I don't waste my time giving others.

Quantrill

 

[Thief]

Im not aware of any quetions I have avoided. Im sure there are conclusions you have come to that I disregard, but I do attempt to answer all questions.

If your talking about getting into another discussion about Eden, that is for another thread.

Then make no such notations.
You said so to make a point and then fail to show anything more.

If your talking about the demand for Bible verses, I give them at first. But once someone disregards those and simply ignores them, then I don't waste my time giving others.

Quantrill

So are we back to topic yet?

 

[Quantrill]

But it seems you do.

I believe the account given in the Bible.

Quantrill

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Im not aware of any quetions I have avoided. Im sure there are conclusions you have come to that I disregard, but I do attempt to answer all questions.
If your talking about getting into another discussion about Eden, that is for another thread.
If your talking about the demand for Bible verses, I give them at first. But once someone disregards those and simply ignores them, then I don't waste my time giving others.

You're not aware, sure you're not.
You've been asked several times for God's attributes, and your answer repeats as 'God is God'.

That's a response, not an answer. So you never answered those questions.
I'm not going back to repaste everyone's questions at you. Go read back. 'Do your homework', as someone said.

I don't know, at this point, who cares. There will be no real answers from you.

 

[fishy]

But your posts have agreed with everything I wrote there, so you deny all of those attributes as well as me.
How can you deny his godly attributes and still call him a god?

Now there's a question? You just lied about it rather than answering it.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

God is God. Why empty? Because you don't decide on Who God is?

Quantrill

I'm saying you're relying on tautologies to weasel out on defining a term. If you refuse to define it, you might as well be talking about grass. x = x

 

[Koldo]

I attribute it to His Holy nature. Read the entire book of Exodus and Leviticus. It is permeated throughout with this. Sin traced back to its most basic root, is another will in opposition to God's will.

'His Holy Nature' is extremely vague.
I have read the entire Exodus and Leviticus already, and i know of no point in there can support your argument that it is part of 'His Holy Nature' being unable to allow sins to go unjudged. Sin is indeed in opposition to God's will, however there is no contradiction in God allowing sin to go unjudged even so. You are welcome to formulate it if you wish to do so.

From David concerning his sin with Bathsheba Psalm 51:4 " Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight:..."

Quantrill

This quote of yours doesn't support your argument.
All it does is support that God, according to David, can judge people for their sins. It is unrelated to your position.

 

[Falvlun]

And I still want to know how what Jesus/God did can be considered forgiveness.

 

[waitasec]

God is God. Why empty? Because you don't decide on Who God is?

Quantrill

why would anyone want to know what god is?

 

[idav]

And I still want to know how what Jesus/God did can be considered forgiveness.

He forgave his aggressors for killing him.

 

[waitasec]

He forgave his aggressors for killing him.

are they in heaven or at least on the waiting list?

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

If Jesus preferred not to do the things that he supposedly did, why did he do them? I think the Bible presents it as though Jesus actually wanted to save humanity and do what he did. The difference here is that in the analogy you are God, not Jesus, Jesus is the money you payed to cover the damages.

He did it out of love. Obviously every analogy that we discussed, the "good friend" would have preferred not to cover the damages but did it out of the love for his friend. No biggie here.

OK so the consequences are no longer death, sin no longer equals death? So given your previous notion that punishing sin with death being a part of God's nature, God's nature was changed by Jesus. The eternal, unchanging God was changed by Jesus.

No, the nature was not changed. Jesus was put to death as the atonement for sin, so a death has still ocurred, so what really changed?? There is no change in Gods nature, it is just a change in the way things are done now as opposed to the way they were done in the past. The bottom line is, a death occurred as a result of sin, thats the way it is and thats the way it always has been.

Apparently not because I don't believe in him. He gave his life specifically for those that do, he only supported his fan club.

If someone gave their life for you, the least you can do is be thankful. That is the problem, ungratefulness. I assume you are a law abiding citizen, you respect mans law. You do your best to obey the law. If you obey mans law, why is it so hard to obey Gods law, the same God that is the source of the man that made the law that you now obey. This is a slap in the face of the Creator.

If the punishment for sin is death and that punishment is removed, then sin is not punished. Unless you are suggesting that Jesus removed sin as a punishment but made a whole new system of punishment?

So if i commit a crime deserving 3 years in prison, the judge can choose to give me 3 years of probation with 250 hours of community service. In other words, instead of giving me what I truly deserve, the judge cuts me slack. I am still being punished for what I did, but in slighter way. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

Yes, i know that people think this but why? I don't know what standard is being used to determine who deserves what.

It is Gods standard. He commands holiness. Anything less that this is below his standard. Look at it this way, life is much better without evil people, right? If you take away all of the evil people in this world, wouldnt the world be a much better place?? God looks at a world full of evil, and the world is better off without these people. But, he has to do it in a way that allows people to freely make choices. The only way to do this is to let people freely choose to do what they want to do, but punish them accordingly.

This analogy doesn't match up though, God cannot just be "not informed" of crimes. His law, which is presumably our law in the analogy would be enforced regardless of if you reported the crime. So the fine and jail time would still apply. Personal damage costs are the only thing this analogy shares with your conclusions.

Not sure what you mean by this

Okay, is the punishment for sin death?

Yes, and Jesus already paid that punishment.

How is that justice? How can responsibility for a sin be passed from man to a different animal?

The animal died in the place of the person that deserved to die. The animal served as a substitute. Now under the new covenant, Jesus is the "Lamb" that was slaughtered for the sins of mankind.

Supposedly, how does it work though?

You dont see how it is better for one man to die for everyone relative to everyone just dying?? How about the President having to make the judgement on whether to shoot down a plane carrying 200 passengers if he knew the plane was headed towards a building in which over 3,000 people occupied. Is it better for the President to make the call of shooting down the plane carrying the 200 passengers, or to let the plane fly in to the building at which the 200 passengers on the plane are killed PLUS the 3K that are in the building??? Which decision would cause the most devastation? Or how about in basic training, where we conducted patrol missions in which we were told to patrol in wedge formations, which is perfect because in a wedge formation, everyone is spaced out enough, so that in case of a IED attack, instead of losing everyone, we only lose only a few. The more men we lose the less men we have to fight. So i think it is clear as to how and why the decision was made of one man dying for mankind.

So you trust everyone that has not let you down before? Even strangers? This just comes off as naive to me.

Naive? Ok so let me ask you a question, think about the last resteraunt that you attended. Those "strangers" that were cooking your meal, did you test your meal for poison??? How do you know that they didn't put cyanide in your drink?? Did you test it?? Well, if you didnt test it, that comes off as "naive" to me.

I can show you one where God says that he lied himself.

Show me.

No, it seems that you believe many absurdities and untruths so the fact that you are the one who said it already lends doubt to it's truth. But again, let's not derail the thread on off topic issues.

Yeah, lets not.

Maybe, maybe not even in being the son of God or God himself, I see no reason to believe the propaganda in the bible about how righteous they are, I don't even find them moral, they appear malevolent to me.

Makes perfect sense, because according to Romans 1:25 "They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator"

Based on that massive assumption, sure. That's a bit of a stretch though.

And would you please tell me these assumptions.

How is it similar to a plea bargain? How can God accept the animal sacrifice is he is truly just or righteous?

Because you are being given a chance to take less of a punishment than what you truly deserve.

It kills it and does so for food, when a man takes the life of a cow for the purpose of food, does it kill it or does it murder it? The fact of the matter is that morality exists in other species, we do not run a monopoly on it.

First of all, lions have been known to kill hyenas just for the heck of it. Second, when a lion mauls a human to death, is this murder???

Why shouldn't it? I don't think his death applies to anyone, you are the one advocating it only applies to believers. Why?

It applies to everyone that is willing to accept him as Lord and Savior. Everyone CAN qualify, but everyone DONT qualify.

I don't see why not.

Well your personal opinion of what you THINK it should be is quite different from what God SAYS it WILL be.

Feel free to explain this absurdity.

Self explanatory to me.

 

[idav]

are they in heaven or at least on the waiting list?

If he really forgave them then at the very least they shouldn't have to worry about eternal hell fire which is always a plus.

 

[waitasec]

If he really forgave them then at the very least they shouldn't have to worry about eternal hell fire which is always a plus.

but....why did he have be crucified in order to forgive them?


why just not get the party started?

:woohoo::jiggy::trampo::danana: