If he wasn't crucified what would he need to forgive them for. Forgive them for not crucifying the son?but....why did he have be crucified in order to forgive them?
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Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?
- Thread starter The Sum of Awe
- Start date
Call_of_the_Wild
Well-Known Member
Hey, Wild, I know it can get overwhelming when you are debating a whole bunch of people on the same exact points so don't feel obligated to respond to my previous ones since it has most of the same stuff as above.
Also, I was much more pleased with the analogy in Post 308 than the one I gave you.
This bit above caught my eye though.
How exactly is it "just" to kill an animal for my wrong doing? Do you think the concept of a whipping boy-- one kid being whipped/punished so that the kid who actually did something wrong gets off scot free-- is just?
You are comparing humans to animals my friend
. That is apples and oranges. The animals life serve as a substitute for the human life, The question of whether it is just or not, the answer, is, yes. Especially given the fact that God is kind and compassionate and eager to forgive. The fact that he set this system up (an animal life for a human life) shows his compassion. He is very sympathetic and does not wish that any life be lost. A true Father 
waitasec
Veteran Member
ahhh
so lets set up a situation where jesus looks like the good guy...
sort of like creating a disease and unleashing it unbeknownst to the population and then say..."look everyone, i have the cure"
What is surprising is that killing the son didn't have the opposite affect. Something like "You all killed your salvation so now your screwed."
waitasec
Veteran Member
Isn't there some quotation, often used at religious wedding ceremonies dealing with what love does and does not do? Isn't there some line about not keeping count of wrongs or some such? Isn't that from your HOLY BOOK? Something often attributed to, at the very least, being inspired by YHWH, if not out and out written by Him?
Good question, dont know what i was thinking there
I cannot accept this substitutionary atonement. It puts me under an obligation that I did not enter into freely, robbing me of choice in the matter. If I do something wrong, I am accountable for that wrong doing, no one else can pay the account for me.
To use a court analogy, something innocuous, lets say I got a speeding ticket. I am obligated to pay the fine. If someone, even out of their feelings of charity, paid the ticket for me, without consulting me, that puts me under an obligation to that person, it puts me in debt to them. For someone to do this without my consent essentially obligates me to them, it takes away my free agency, removes my agency to act as a free individual and that is anathema to me, it is slavery.
That is essentially what christians say jesus did, he paid the mother of all speeding tickets for me, without asking, obligating me to him and effectively enslaving me, it is a repulsive thought on par only with the other side of the substitutionary atonement coin, the idea of original sin -- that simply by being born a human being is in some way worthy only of torture and suffering for eternity.
Quantrill
Active Member
Weve been talking about God's attributes. Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Omniscience.
I repeat God is God because you and others keep trying to say God can't be God if He can't be God. As I said, God cannot quit being Himself.
Quantrill
Quantrill
Active Member
Quantrill
Active Member
God judges sin everywhere. No sin will be left unjudged. Your hoping with blinders on.
The quote proves exactly my point. Davids sin was against Bathsheba and Uriah. Yet the Holy Spirit through David says, 'Against thee and thee only have I sinned'. Or as I said, all sin is against God.
Quantrill
Quantrill
Active Member
Quantrill
Active Member
Koldo
Outstanding Member
The quote does NOT prove your point. As i said, it just shows that God CAN judge sinners. Not that he MUST judge sinners.
are they in heaven or at least on the waiting list?
No, the Roman soldiers that were part of the execution are not in heaven.
Heaven is reserved for Jesus 'brothers'. Except for those committing the unforgivable sin, all the rest of mankind will have an earthly resurrection.
In a sense they are on a 'waiting list' because their earthly resurrection will not take place until the future time of Jesus messianic 1000-year reign over earth.
In the meantime, they are in the same place that Jesus was before God resurrected the dead Jesus. Jesus was in the 'Bible's hell' [sheol] which is just the common grave of mankind where the dead sleep until they are resurrected either to reign in heaven with Jesus, or resurrected on earth during Jesus millennial reign over earth.
1st Corinthians 15v50; Matthew 25v40; 12v32; Acts 24v15; 2 vs27,31,32; Isaiah 25v8; 65 vs16,17; Revelation 20v6; 14v4; 5vs9,10; 21 vs4,5;
John 5v28; 11vs11-14; Psalms 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; 37vs11,29; 72v8
Good point ^above^ because according to John [5 vs22,27] the Father judges No man, but he has committed all judging to his Son.
God gave Jesus all authority to execute judgment because Jesus is Son of man.
waitasec
Veteran Member
Thief
Rogue Theologian
And you noted precious to this....'brother'....
He is indeed...'brother and fellow servant'...He said so.
But He never wanted a crown on His head.
Judgment is something we all can do. Some of us won't be very good at it.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Quantrill
Active Member
As I said, it does prove my point. All sin is against God. And sin is judged by God wherever it is.
No, it doesn't show that God 'can' judge sinners. It shows that He will judge sinners.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto man once to die, but after this the judgement:
Quantrill