Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[silenceinmotion]

God is all powerful, why make a man just to die to save everyone when he could just do it by thinking it happening?

Yes, I know I will get a lot of comments saying "Jesus is no man! He is God!" Well, technically isn't he a demigod? Half man half God? And even if you don't consider him to be, it just made people suffer from sadness, especially Mary the mother of Jesus.

If God is one of justice, and not what one wants Him to be by their carnal rages and influences, then yes, Jesus had to die for us to live.

 

[Thief]

...and the one Being [God] of Psalm [90 v 2] is uncreated.

Whereas, according to Revelation [3 v 14; 1 v 5], Jesus is a creation.

God is uncreated. Only God was before the beginning.
Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

I agree.
You should post this again as a new topic.

 

[Thief]

If God is one of justice, and not what one wants Him to be by their carnal rages and influences, then yes, Jesus had to die for us to live.

If heaven is a place of peace there will be requirements for entry...true.
That the Carpenter had to die for us to live (here in this life?)....false.

The parables are the teachings that lead to heaven.
With His word in mind and heart....no problem.

But His death was a matter of politics vs. religion.
He was falsely accused of being ...'king of the Jews'....
That was a capital offense to Rome.
No king but Caesar.

 

[sojourner]

...and the one Being [God] of Psalm [90 v 2] is uncreated.

Whereas, according to Revelation [3 v 14; 1 v 5], Jesus is a creation.

God is uncreated. Only God was before the beginning.
Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

Methinks you're going through some gymnastics to read Revelation that way.

 

[helpmeplease]

The changes that were made as the result of Jesus' action were made by GOD. Said GOD could have made those changes at any time, without the participation of Jesus.

 

[Thief]

The changes that were made as the result of Jesus' action were made by GOD. Said GOD could have made those changes at any time, without the participation of Jesus.

Are you expecting pamphlets?...or prophets?

 

[helpmeplease]

Are you expecting pamphlets?...or prophets?

What changes did Jesus action produce? Pretty easy question for someone who believes?

 

[Thief]

What changes did Jesus action produce? Pretty easy question for someone who believes?

Before Him the law was retroactive.
First the offense ....then reaction.
An eye for an eye.

The so called 'golden rule' was already there.
Everyone, including the gentiles, knew it.
But it was considered heathen law....gentile law.

When questioned which law is greatest....He said..."Love God"
Chalk one up for the Carpenter.

When questioned again...which law is second greatest...
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

From that hour forward the pharisees sought to have Him dead.
He had quoted everything but Moses.
How can you be the messiah?....if you don't quote Moses?

For this topic...how can you be the Savior?

You can't save your fellow man by dying for him.
He will just die...later on.

Salvation of the spirit is the actual target.
You do this by what you say to your fellow man.
His parables are sufficient. Keep His word in mind and heart....
and you will keep your mind and heart.

The kingdom of God is not of this world.
But to walk among angels...Whose grace do you follow?

 

[CMike]

Before Him the law was retroactive.
First the offense ....then reaction.
An eye for an eye.

The so called 'golden rule' was already there.
Everyone, including the gentiles, knew it.
But it was considered heathen law....gentile law.

When questioned which law is greatest....He said..."Love God"
Chalk one up for the Carpenter.

When questioned again...which law is second greatest...
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Rabbi Akiva said that way before jesus was born

From that hour forward the pharisees sought to have Him dead.

The rabbis had no power to see him dead. There was no jewish court at that time.

Also, the problem was more that he considered himself a god and thought he should be worshipped. That according to G-D is a great sin.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 (Parshah Re'eh) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

He had quoted everything but Moses.
How can you be the messiah?....if you don't quote Moses?

By fulfilling the messianic prophesies. I don't see quoting Moses as part of the criteria.
They are in Ezekiel 37 and Michah 4:3.

They are:

• World peace
• One united king
• All the jews will will be brought to Israel
• All the jews will stay in Israel
• Everyone in the world will worship one G-D
• The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever

For this topic...how can you be the Savior?

You can't.

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)

You can't save your fellow man by dying for him.
He will just die...later on.

No you can't. You are responsible for your own sins. And jesus didn't die for anyone. He was caught and arrested. He then whinned about how G-D forsake him. He died as a wimp. The true jewish martrs professed G-D's greatness when they were killed. They didn't whine about it.

 

[Me Myself]

Also, the problem was more that he considered himself a god and thought he should be worshipped. That according to G-D is a great sin.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 (Parshah Re'eh) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

There is not one single passage when Jesus asked for worship.

 

[CMike]

There is not one single passage when Jesus asked for worship.

Didn't he claim to be the son of god and that you have to go through him to get to god?

 

[Me Myself]

Didn't he claim to be the son of god and that you have to go through him to get to god?

He also pointed at a jewish scripture that said we are all gods.

And when he taught people how to pray he wasn´t the onewho introduced "in the name of the father son and holy spirit"

 

[CMike]

He also pointed at a jewish scripture that said we are all gods.

And when he taught people how to pray he wasn´t the onewho introduced "in the name of the father son and holy spirit"

I must have missed that one. Which Jewish scripture is that?

 

[Thief]

Rabbi Akiva said that way before jesus was born

The 'golden rule was carved in stone a thousand years before the Carpenter. Was that the time of your source?

The rabbis had no power to see him dead. There was no jewish court at that time.

True...Roman occupation took away the authority of capital punishment.
That's the cause for taking Jesus to Pilate.

Also, the problem was more that he considered himself a god and thought he should be worshipped. That according to G-D is a great sin.

Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 (Parshah Re'eh) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

He would ask OTHERS, who they thought He might be.....
and then forbid then to repeat it.

By fulfilling the messianic prophesies. I don't see quoting Moses as part of the criteria.
They are in Ezekiel 37 and Michah 4:3.

They are:

• World peace
• One united king
• All the jews will will be brought to Israel
• All the jews will stay in Israel
• Everyone in the world will worship one G-D
• The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever

I would agree, He is not the messiah.


You can't. (pronounce Him as Savior?...yes I can.)

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)


No you can't. You are responsible for your own sins. And jesus didn't die for anyone. He was caught and arrested. He then whinned about how G-D forsake him. He died as a wimp. The true jewish martrs professed G-D's greatness when they were killed. They didn't whine about it.

That Someone would point to the pitfalls that could bring my ruin....
He saves me from that ruin.
His parables are sufficient.

If you have a parting of the ways with the Carpenter....
it should be only for cause of His word.

And you have found such fault in His teachings?

And He didn't whine when He died.
The angels that had ministered to Him during His ministry....
were silent during His death.

He called out...."Why have you forsaken me?'
There was no reply.

I expect the same for us during that last hour.
The last hour belongs to us.

It is that Baptism of Fire...that He taught to His disciples.

 

[CMike]

That Someone would point to the pitfalls that could bring my ruin....
He saves me from that ruin.
His parables are sufficient.

If you have a parting of the ways with the Carpenter....
it should be only for cause of His word.

And you have found such fault in His teachings?

Who are you talking about?

It's really very simple. G-d said that only he is to be worshipped, and prayed to. He said that he is the only G-D, that there is none aside from him. He said that he alone is our saviour.

He also said that if anyone claims to be some sort of divine being, and tries to lead jews away from their G-D, that person committed a very grave sin. Also that that those people that helped him committed grave sins.

And He didn't whine when He died.
The angels that had ministered to Him during His ministry....
were silent during His death.

He called out...."Why have you forsaken me?'
There was no reply.

I expect the same for us during that last hour.
The last hour belongs to us.

It kind of reminds me of a scene from The Avengers.

[youtube]30lGrarz3MQ[/youtube]
The Avengers - Puny God Scene - Hulk - YouTube

It appears that my G-D is more powerful than your G-D. The angels are messengers of my G-D.

Below is how a jew who loves G-D with all his soul dies.

Shema Yisrael

What does it mean to "love God with all your soul"?

The great Talmudic scholar, Rabbi Akiva (second century) loved God so much, that he taught Torah despite the Roman law forbidding it. When the Romans found out, they sentenced him to a painful death.

They took a large iron comb and began to scrape off his flesh. As he was being tortured, Rabbi Akiva joyously recited the Shema ? "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One."

His bewildered students asked, "Rabbi, how can you praise God amidst such torture?"

Rabbi Akiva replied: "All my life, I strived to love God with all my soul. Now that I have the opportunity to fulfill it, I do so with joy!" With his dying breath, he sanctified God's name by crying out the words of Shema. (Talmud - Brachot 61a)

 

[Thief]

Who are you talking about?

It's really very simple. G-d said that only he is to be worshipped, and prayed to. He said that he is the only G-D, that there is none aside from him. He said that he alone is our saviour.

He also said that if anyone claims to be some sort of divine being, and tries to lead jews away from their G-D, that person committed a very grave sin. Also that that those people that helped him committed grave sins.



It kind of reminds me of a scene from The Avengers.

[youtube]30lGrarz3MQ[/youtube]
The Avengers - Puny God Scene - Hulk - YouTube

It appears that my G-D is more powerful than your G-D. The angels are messengers of my G-D.

Below is how a jew who loves G-D with all his soul dies.

Shema Yisrael

What does it mean to "love God with all your soul"?

The great Talmudic scholar, Rabbi Akiva (second century) loved God so much, that he taught Torah despite the Roman law forbidding it. When the Romans found out, they sentenced him to a painful death.

They took a large iron comb and began to scrape off his flesh. As he was being tortured, Rabbi Akiva joyously recited the Shema ? "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One."

His bewildered students asked, "Rabbi, how can you praise God amidst such torture?"

Rabbi Akiva replied: "All my life, I strived to love God with all my soul. Now that I have the opportunity to fulfill it, I do so with joy!" With his dying breath, he sanctified God's name by crying out the words of Shema. (Talmud - Brachot 61a)

I think what you meant to post might be....
'my prophet is greater than your prophet'.

There is only one God.
There is only one God to worship.
No one else is worthy of your knee.

All who have spoken well of God will stand well enough in His presence.
No one circumvents the prophets.

You do have to choose. Life is too short to follow after everyone.
In this life you have choices...yes you do.

But ultimately the one choice that counts for something doesn't belong to you.

It belongs to the angels...and they carry swords.

 

[javajo]

Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

Well, I believe he didn't HAVE to, but he did so because he loves us. He did not really die for our sins, but to pay the penalty of our sins, which is death...so he died...thus paying the penalty for all our sins, once and for all time. So if one trusts in him to have paid in full the penalty of all their sins, past, present and future (they were all future when he died), one is given the free gift of eternal life and given God's righteousness in place of their own which is quite insufficient. Only with God's righteousness freely given may anyone enter into eternal life. So out of his great love for us he offers this unsearchable, undeserved free gift to anyone who will simply trust in Him for the matter. Again that's my belief.

 

[Jacksnyte]

so... let's recap:
God sacrificed himself, to himself, to appease himself, to change a rule that he made in the first place. So he won't have to roast us alive, his beloved creation, for ever and ever. He loves us so much, we cannot even comprehend, but if we don't love him back, he will hasta la vista our soul into the molten lava jaccuzzi for all eternity.
sound accurate?

 

[javajo]

so... let's recap:
God sacrificed himself, to himself, to appease himself, to change a rule that he made in the first place. So he won't have to roast us alive, his beloved creation, for ever and ever. He loves us so much, we cannot even comprehend, but if we don't love him back, he will hasta la vista our soul into the molten lava jaccuzzi for all eternity.
sound accurate?

I guess its a fools take on it. My belief personally, is that I KNOW I have sinned, I have done very bad things. I have broken all ten commandments over and over. I know I was wrong, that I was a poor miserable black hearted sinner and deserved whatever punishment I had coming (Hell is not the same for everyone). I am thankful that God did love me and freely saved an undeserving sinner such as I. God's wisdom truly IS higher than our wisdom and if you want to question that and stick your nose up at what Christ did for us, then that is your choice, but I think it is a very foolish choice. That's just my belief/opinion.

 

[Thief]

I like my recap better.

I think what you meant to post might be....
'my prophet is greater than your prophet'.

There is only one God.
There is only one God to worship.
No one else is worthy of your knee.

All who have spoken well of God will stand well enough in His presence.
No one circumvents the prophets.

You do have to choose. Life is too short to follow after everyone.
In this life you have choices...yes you do.

But ultimately the one choice that counts for something doesn't belong to you.

It belongs to the angels...and they carry swords.