Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[CMike]

Well I am happy to discuss some things with a Jewish person. If your claim is Jesus is not the messiah, then what did the blood of goats and bulls point to. What was the blood of the lamb an the door posts a symbol of. What do these verses mean?

It would be nice to know what you are referring to?

Are you talking about the blood on the doors so the angel of death passed on the jewish homes? I need a bit more.

52:14 As many were astonished at him ­­

his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the sons of men

(Was Israel's appearance marred or Christs?)­­

It would be nice if you actually tell me where you got it from. I know it's Isaiah, but I don't memorize the whole thing.

Prophets is meant to be written in a flowery way.

It's talking about Israel.

53:2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,

and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.
(Is this a description of a man or a nation?)

53:3 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

(Is he a nation or a man?)

53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows;

yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

(Did Israel or Christ carry our sorrows?)

53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed.

(Did Israel's stripes heal anyone or Christs?)
53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

(Is him a nation or a man? Did Israel pay the debt for all our sins?)

53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth;

like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

(There is that lamb symbol again)
(was Israel or Jesus quiet before his accusers?)
53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?

(Was Israel or Jesus cut off from the living?)


53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death,

although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

(Where is Israel buried?, Christ was buried in joseph's tomb with the wicked and the rich)

53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief;

when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; (Christians)

the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;

(Did Israel become an offering for sin or did the savior of the world? Jesus)

The Suffering Servant: Isaiah 53 Red words are mine of course.

I have read attempts to claim this part of Isaiah was not about Jesus but I wanted to get a Jewish persons individual opinion on it.

All of these refer to Israel. G-D refers to Israel as one man in numerous passages. 44:2), “Fear not, My servant Jacob” ; (44:1) “And now, hearken, Jacob, My servant.” Here too (52:13), “Behold My servant shall prosper,” he said concerning the house of Jacob. יַשְׂכִּיל is an expression of prosperity. Comp. (I Sam. 18:14) “And David was successful (מַשְׂכִּי&#1500 in all his ways.”

The odds that any man who was not actually the Christ meeting hundreds of prophecies is absolutely mind blowing. The odds that that same man would actually falsely claim to be the messiah, be willing to suffer and die for it, and everyone of his followers would believe he rose from the dead and he was the Christ and were willing to suffer greatly for that, and who one day would be the founder of the largest religion in the world is impossible. I am really looking forward to a Jewish take on this.

Jesus fulfilled none of the actual prophesies except riding a mule and being from Bethlehem.

The messianic prophesis are in Ezekiel 37 and Michah 4:3

Michah 4

3. And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore (World peace)

Ezekiel 37


21. And say to them, So says the Lord God: Behold I will take the children of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side, and I will bring them to their land. כא. (bring all the jews to Israel

22. And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore. כב. One recognized king

23. And they shall no longer defile themselves with their idols, with their detestable things, or with all their transgressions, and I will save them from all their habitations in which they have sinned, and I will purify them, and they shall be to Me as a people, and I will be to them as a God. כג. All nations will worship one G-D

24. And My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them. כד. Descendent of David


25. And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to My servant, to Jacob, wherein your forefathers lived; and they shall dwell upon it, they and their children and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. כה.All the jews will stay in Israel forever

26. And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever. כו. The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever


27. And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people. כז.


28. And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever." The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever

 

[CMike]

Also, G-D made it extremely clear that we are to worship and place our trust in only him. To do othewise is a great sin.

Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut)

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)

...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)

You are my witness--the words of Hashem--and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you will know and believe in Me, and understand that I am He; before me nothing was created by a G-D, and after Me it shall not be (Isaiah 43:10)

... O Lord; no deeds can compare with Yours. All the nations You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord; they will bring glory to Your name. For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:8-10)

O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)

... all kingdoms on Earth may know that You alone, O Lord, are God. (Isaiah, 37:20)

This is what the Lord says—your Redeemer, Who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, Who has made all things, Who alone stretched out the heavens, Who spread out the Earth by Myself. (Isaiah, 44:24)

Since ancient times no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides You, who acts on behalf of those who wait for Him. (Isaiah, 64:4)

For this is what the Lord says—He Who created the heavens, He is God; He Who fashioned and made the Earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—He says: "I am the Lord, and there is no other." (Isaiah, 45:18)

...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)

See now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal... (Deuteronomy, 32:39)

...you may know there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus, 8:10)

O Lord... there is no god like You in heaven above or on Earth below... (1 Kings, 8:23; 2 Chronicles, 6:14)

Then Asa called to the Lord his God and said, "Lord, there is no one like You to help the powerless against the mighty..."(2 Chronicles, 14:11)

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)

There is no one like You, O Lord, and there is no god but You, as we have heard with our own ears. (1 Chronicles, 17:20; 2 Samuel, 7:22)

There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides You; there is no strength like our God. (1 Samuel, 2:2)

His wisdom is profound, His power is vast. Who has resisted Him and come out unscathed. (Job, 9:4)

For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:10)

Praise Him for His acts of power; praise Him for His surpassing greatness. (Psalms, 150:2)

You alone are the Lord. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the Earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship You. (Nehemiah, 9:6)

They will say of Me, "In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength."... (Isaiah, 45:24)

You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides Him there is no other. (Deuteronomy, 4:35)

... Is there any god besides Me? No, there is no other strong one; I know not one. (Isaiah, 44:8)

This is what the Lord says—I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no god. (Isaiah, 44:6)

Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord—with the first of them and with the last—I am He." (Isaiah, 41:4)

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Why do you think Mark ends the way it does, with the women fleeing from the tomb in fright and telling no one? Mark had a pretty good take on things, I'd say.

In what way does this answer my question?

 

[sojourner]

Well I am happy to discuss some things with a Jewish person. If your claim is Jesus is not the messiah, then what did the blood of goats and bulls point to. What was the blood of the lamb an the door posts a symbol of. What do these verses mean?

52:14 As many were astonished at him **his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the sons of men

(Was Israel's appearance marred or Christs?)**

53:2 For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.
(Is this a description of a man or a nation?)

53:3 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

(Is he a nation or a man?)

53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows;

yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

(Did Israel or Christ carry our sorrows?)

53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed.

(Did Israel's stripes heal anyone or Christs?)
53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

(Is him a nation or a man? Did Israel pay the debt for all our sins?)

53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth;

like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

(There is that lamb symbol again)
(was Israel or Jesus quiet before his accusers?)
53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?

(Was Israel or Jesus cut off from the living?)


53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death,

although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

(Where is Israel buried?, Christ was buried in joseph's tomb with the wicked and the rich)

53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief;

when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; (Christians)

the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;

(Did Israel become an offering for sin or did the savior of the world? Jesus)

The Suffering Servant: Isaiah 53 Red words are mine of course.

I have read attempts to claim this part of Isaiah was not about Jesus but I wanted to get a Jewish persons individual opinion on it.


The odds that any man who was not actually the Christ meeting hundreds of prophecies is absolutely mind blowing. The odds that that same man would actually falsely claim to be the messiah, be willing to suffer and die for it, and everyone of his followers would believe he rose from the dead and he was the Christ and were willing to suffer greatly for that, and who one day would be the founder of the largest religion in the world is impossible. I am really looking forward to a Jewish take on this.

The identity of the servant is one of the most hotly debated topics of Isaiah. It's unlikely that it refers to an individual messiah (which Xtians believe is a type for Jesus), because Deutero-Isaiah doesn't ever refer to the messiah.

There is debate whether the servant here refers to Jeremiah or Moses. My personal interpretation is that it refers to the whole Jewish people. the term "servant" in Deutero-Isaiah often refers, either to the nation as a whole, or to some part of it.

I think your interpretation here misses the mark entirely. Xtians like to read it as prefiguring Jesus, and that's a pretty interpretation, but not at all what the author had in mind.

 

[sojourner]

In what way does this answer my question?

The events happened. Jesus was crucified. What really changed?

(Hint: I'm telling you that Mark agrees with you.)

 

[CMike]

I wanted to add a bit more but I don't feel like doing the typing.
Who is the suffering servant of the Lord?

Who is the suffering servant of the Lord?


Answer: The fact is that the identity of the servant has already been established by Isaiah in PREViously stated passages. In Isaiah 41 :8-9; 44:1-2, 21; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3 the prophet identifies Israel as the servant.

Moreover, the history of Israel, down through the ages shows that the servant is, none other than Israel personified.

Chapter 53 reiterates this fact by providing an historic overview of the tragedies and triumphs of the servant, Israel, throughout its history.

Who would believe that this exiled nation, this humiliated loathsome Jewish people would be fated to survive the vicissitudes of its historical sufferings to once more have a future entailing prominence, hope, and joy.

 

[CMike]

I would also like to here how robin or people who believe like her reconcile that G-D said in numerous passages, some of which I quoted, that there is one G-D, and one G-D only with their belief in multipl gods or god in different parts?

Here is one of them:

"The Lor-d is our G-D, the Lor-d is ONE".

 

[sojourner]

I would also like to here how robin or people who believe like her that G-D said in numerous passages, some of which I quoted, that there is one G-D, and one G-D only?

Here is one of them:

"The Lor-d is our G-D, the Lor-d is ONE".

That doesn't make sense. You'd like to hear how Robin... what, exactly?

 

[CMike]

That doesn't make sense. You'd like to hear how Robin... what, exactly?

You are right my question was confusing.

Chrisitans appear to believe in multiple gods or a god in different parts.

However, G-D said in numerous passages, that there is only one G-d him, and no one else. He also said that he is one.

How do Christians reconcile their belief in muliple gods or a god in different parts, when G-D said the contrary in numerous passages?

 

[sojourner]

You are right my question was confusing.

Chrisitans appear to believe in multiple gods or a god in different parts.

However, G-D said in numerous passages, that there is only one G-d him, and no one else. He also said that he is one.

How do Christians reconcile their belief in muliple gods or a god in different parts, when G-D said the contrary in numerous passages?

I certainly don't believe in multiple gods. God is God. And God is available to us through Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

 

[CMike]

I certainly don't believe in multiple gods. God is God. And God is available to us through Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Father=1
Son =1
Spirit =1

TOTAL =3

 

[1robin]

I would also like to here how robin or people who believe like her reconcile that G-D said in numerous passages, some of which I quoted, that there is one G-D, and one G-D only with their belief in multipl gods or god in different parts?

Here is one of them:

"The Lor-d is our G-D, the Lor-d is ONE".

This is of course a very contentious concept. The doctrine of the Trinity is termed a mystery for a reason. God exists as three persons in one being. This is not a unigue concept. Matter exists as one substance in three states. gas liguid solid. God = one being which contains 1- Father, 1-spirit, 1-son. They are coequal in majesty and position but not in function and purpose. They are one being there for monotheistic. This is a very hard to explain idea and ever harder to understand but I did my best.

 

[sojourner]

Father=1
Son =1
Spirit =1

TOTAL =3

Three persons. One Being. And before we get off-topic, there are two trinity debate threads in "Biblical debates."

 

[CMike]

This is of course a very contentious concept. The doctrine of the Trinity is termed a mystery for a reason. God exists as three persons in one being. This is not a unigue concept. Matter exists as one substance in three states. gas liguid solid. God = one being which contains 1- Father, 1-spirit, 1-son. They are coequal in majesty and position but not in function and purpose. They are one being there for monotheistic. This is a very hard to explain idea and ever harder to understand but I did my best.

But that doesn't answer my question.

G-D says he is one, no where does he say one in three parts. Don't you think out of the thousands of pages in the Torah he would have told the jews that? He gave detailed measurements of how to build things that he wanted built.

Also do you see how by creating other gods like jesus you are in fact challenging what G-D said in passages below?


Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut)

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God.
...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)

...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)

You are my witness--the words of Hashem--and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you will know and believe in Me, and understand that I am He; before me nothing was created by a G-D, and after Me it shall not be (Isaiah 43:10)

... O Lord; no deeds can compare with Yours. All the nations You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord; they will bring glory to Your name. For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:8-10)

O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)

... all kingdoms on Earth may know that You alone, O Lord, are God. (Isaiah, 37:20)

This is what the Lord says—your Redeemer, Who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, Who has made all things, Who alone stretched out the heavens, Who spread out the Earth by Myself. (Isaiah, 44:24)

Since ancient times no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides You, who acts on behalf of those who wait for Him. (Isaiah, 64:4)

For this is what the Lord says—He Who created the heavens, He is God; He Who fashioned and made the Earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—He says: "I am the Lord, and there is no other." (Isaiah, 45:18)

...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)

See now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal... (Deuteronomy, 32:39)

...you may know there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus, 8:10)

O Lord... there is no god like You in heaven above or on Earth below... (1 Kings, 8:23; 2 Chronicles, 6:14)

Then Asa called to the Lord his God and said, "Lord, there is no one like You to help the powerless against the mighty..."(2 Chronicles, 14:11)

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)

There is no one like You, O Lord, and there is no god but You, as we have heard with our own ears. (1 Chronicles, 17:20; 2 Samuel, 7:22)

There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides You; there is no strength like our God. (1 Samuel, 2:2)

His wisdom is profound, His power is vast. Who has resisted Him and come out unscathed. (Job, 9:4)

For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:10)

Praise Him for His acts of power; praise Him for His surpassing greatness. (Psalms, 150:2)

 

[CMike]

Three persons. One Being. And before we get off-topic, there are two trinity debate threads in "Biblical debates."

You do realize that is contrary to what G-D said in numerous passages?

 

[jasonwill2]

Well congratulations,(maybe). What is the subject and by all means what is the Title and what works did you use as referrences? Are you planning to publish it?

It's about Satanism, havnt decided the title as that is the least important part of any book, and it uses referrences and lots of logic and all taht jazz

and i plan to self-publish it to a certain extend when its finished

 

[1robin]

It's about Satanism, havnt decided the title as that is the least important part of any book, and it uses referrences and lots of logic and all taht jazz

and i plan to self-publish it to a certain extend when its finished

By references which books are you referring to? If I find it based on anything likely accurate or informative can I get a copy? Is it historical or only doctrinal? I enjoy accurate historical texts of any type.

 

[1robin]

But that doesn't answer my question.

G-D says he is one, no where does he say one in three parts. Don't you think out of the thousands of pages in the Torah he would have told the jews that? He gave detailed measurements of how to build things that he wanted built.

Also do you see how by creating other gods like jesus you are in fact challenging what G-D said in passages below?


Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut)

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God.
...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)

...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)

You are my witness--the words of Hashem--and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you will know and believe in Me, and understand that I am He; before me nothing was created by a G-D, and after Me it shall not be (Isaiah 43:10)

... O Lord; no deeds can compare with Yours. All the nations You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord; they will bring glory to Your name. For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:8-10)

O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)

... all kingdoms on Earth may know that You alone, O Lord, are God. (Isaiah, 37:20)

This is what the Lord says—your Redeemer, Who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, Who has made all things, Who alone stretched out the heavens, Who spread out the Earth by Myself. (Isaiah, 44:24)

Since ancient times no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides You, who acts on behalf of those who wait for Him. (Isaiah, 64:4)

For this is what the Lord says—He Who created the heavens, He is God; He Who fashioned and made the Earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—He says: "I am the Lord, and there is no other." (Isaiah, 45:18)

...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)

See now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal... (Deuteronomy, 32:39)

...you may know there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus, 8:10)

O Lord... there is no god like You in heaven above or on Earth below... (1 Kings, 8:23; 2 Chronicles, 6:14)

Then Asa called to the Lord his God and said, "Lord, there is no one like You to help the powerless against the mighty..."(2 Chronicles, 14:11)

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)

There is no one like You, O Lord, and there is no god but You, as we have heard with our own ears. (1 Chronicles, 17:20; 2 Samuel, 7:22)

There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides You; there is no strength like our God. (1 Samuel, 2:2)

His wisdom is profound, His power is vast. Who has resisted Him and come out unscathed. (Job, 9:4)

For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:10)

Praise Him for His acts of power; praise Him for His surpassing greatness. (Psalms, 150:2)

Sorry Cmike I did not have time to address this post today. I appreciate the info you seem to be reasonably informed. I will address them soon. Selah.

 

[CMike]

Sorry Cmike I did not have time to address this post today. I appreciate the info you seem to be reasonably informed. I will address them soon. Selah.

Okee dokee

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Three persons. One Being. And before we get off-topic, there are two trinity debate threads in "Biblical debates."

...and the one Being [God] of Psalm [90 v 2] is uncreated.

Whereas, according to Revelation [3 v 14; 1 v 5], Jesus is a creation.

God is uncreated. Only God was before the beginning.
Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.