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Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Heathen Hammer said:
Sin existed before Jesus gave his life.
People were dieing before Jesus gave his life.
God was angry at sinners before Jesus gave his life.
People went to Hell before Jesus gave his life.

What changed?
Nothing.
It would appear some kind of promise unfulfilled.

How can it be verified that anything changed, because of it?
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Why do you think Mark ends the way it does, with the women fleeing from the tomb in fright and telling no one? Mark had a pretty good take on things, I'd say.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Heathen Hammer said:
Sin existed before Jesus gave his life.
People were dieing before Jesus gave his life.
God was angry at sinners before Jesus gave his life.
People went to Hell before Jesus gave his life.

What changed?
Nothing.
It would appear some kind of promise unfulfilled.

How can it be verified that anything changed, because of it?
Click to expand...

This is one of your better posts....thank you.

For the most part nothing changed.
And you would think this would herald the non believer's discussion more often, than the tired old demand for proof and evidence.

But there was a change.
The law had been retroactive....an eye for an eye...
No action of law until something bad happened.

The 'new' law is proactive....you first.
You want generosity as you stand before the angels?...you first.....now.
You want mercy and forgiveness for your shortcomings....you first...unto others.

That He died in the course of His ministry was not a surprise.
He saw it coming.
So did He back off?.....nay.
Persisting would put Him at risk?....yeah.
Did He sacrifice Himself that He stayed true to the course of His path?....yeah.

Does that mean you are forgiven?.....only if His teachings have become yours.
 
1robin

1robin

Christian/Baptist
CMike said:
None. I am refering to the Torah, the bible I believe in.
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Well I am happy to discuss some things with a Jewish person. If your claim is Jesus is not the messiah, then what did the blood of goats and bulls point to. What was the blood of the lamb an the door posts a symbol of. What do these verses mean?

52:14 As many were astonished at him ­­his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the sons of men

(Was Israel's appearance marred or Christs?)­­

53:2 For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.
(Is this a description of a man or a nation?)

53:3 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

(Is he a nation or a man?)

53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows;

yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

(Did Israel or Christ carry our sorrows?)

53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed.

(Did Israel's stripes heal anyone or Christs?)
53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

(Is him a nation or a man? Did Israel pay the debt for all our sins?)

53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth;

like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

(There is that lamb symbol again)
(was Israel or Jesus quiet before his accusers?)
53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?

(Was Israel or Jesus cut off from the living?)


53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death,

although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

(Where is Israel buried?, Christ was buried in joseph's tomb with the wicked and the rich)

53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief;

when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; (Christians)

the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;

(Did Israel become an offering for sin or did the savior of the world? Jesus)

The Suffering Servant: Isaiah 53 Red words are mine of course.

I have read attempts to claim this part of Isaiah was not about Jesus but I wanted to get a Jewish persons individual opinion on it.


The odds that any man who was not actually the Christ meeting hundreds of prophecies is absolutely mind blowing. The odds that that same man would actually falsely claim to be the messiah, be willing to suffer and die for it, and everyone of his followers would believe he rose from the dead and he was the Christ and were willing to suffer greatly for that, and who one day would be the founder of the largest religion in the world is impossible. I am really looking forward to a Jewish take on this.
 
1robin

1robin

Christian/Baptist
jasonwill2 said:
i know your not quoting me, but I did write a religious book, or at least finished 2 or three drafts of it :D
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Well congratulations,(maybe). What is the subject and by all means what is the Title and what works did you use as referrences? Are you planning to publish it?
 
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