Did Jesus say he was God???

[Shermana]

No I don't have to prove anything.
I've already proved my case.

ps Try not to look more desperate than that

Ok, that says it there, you don't think you have to actually prove your case that all those are not possibly nominatives. Thanks.

If you don't think you have to prove anything, you've spoken volumes, and you're on the wrong forum. Try the discussion forums if you don't think you have to actually prove your own case. I don't see how you've actually proved those verses to be uses of Vocatives. And my request for your explanation of the Targum was shot down, as was the request for the exact page (you linked merely to the site) and the quote you got your source from.

And once again, your own case of John 20:28 betrays you. Wow. How did you miss that one?

 

[Mark2020]

Ok, that says it there, you don't think you have to actually prove your case that all those are not possibly nominatives. Thanks.

I suggest you take some deep breaths and read the discussion from the start, because you really look more desperate with each post you give.
I'm starting to feel for you.

 

[Mark2020]

So, I hope things are clear now.

[FONT=&quot]

(Hebrews 1:8 [KJV]) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](Hebrews 1:8 [TR]) προς δε τον υιον [/FONT][FONT=&quot]ο θρονος σου ο θεος[/FONT][FONT=&quot] εις τον αιωνα του αιωνος ραβδος ευθυτητος η ραβδος της βασιλειας σου[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Nominative for Vocative (Nominative of Address)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] :

Never read this before?
(Psalms 22:1 [LXX])
(21:1) εις το τελος υπερ της αντιλημψεως της εωθινης ψαλμος τω δαυιδ (21:2) ο θεος ο θεος μου προσχες μοι ινα τι εγκατελιπες με μακραν απο της σωτηριας μου οι λογοι των παραπτωματων μου

(Psalms 22:2 [LXX])
(21:3) ο θεος μου κεκραξομαι ημερας και ουκ εισακουση και νυκτος και ουκ εις ανοιαν εμοι

(John 20:28 [TR])
και απεκριθη ο θωμας και ειπεν αυτω ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου

(Revelation 6:10 [TR])
και εκραζον φωνη μεγαλη λεγοντες εως ποτε ο δεσποτης ο αγιος και ο αληθινος ου κρινεις και εκδικεις το αιμα ημων απο των κατοικουντων επι της γης

(Revelation 15:3 [TR])
και αδουσιν την ωδην μωσεως του δουλου του θεου και την ωδην του αρνιου λεγοντες μεγαλα και θαυμαστα τα εργα σου κυριε ο θεος ο παντοκρατωρ δικαιαι και αληθιναι αι οδοι σου ο βασιλευς των αγιων
[/FONT]
(Psalms 22:2 [KJV])
O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

(Psalms 22:2 [NIV])
O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent.

(Revelation 6:10 [KJV])
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[FONT=&quot]
Daniel B. Wallace. (1999; 2002). Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics - Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament::

[/FONT]
πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν, ὁ θρόνος σου, ὁ θεός, εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος

[FONT=&quot]But to the Son [he declares], “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]There are three syntactical possibilities for [/FONT]θεός[FONT=&quot] here: as a subject (“God is your throne”), predicate nom. (“your throne is God”), and nom. for voc. (as in the translation above). The S and PN translations can be lumped togetherand set off against the nom. for voc. approach. It is our view that the nom. for voc. view is to be preferred for the following reasons: (1) It is an overstatement to argue that if a writer wanted to address God he could have used the vocative [/FONT]θεέ[FONT=&quot], because no where in the NT is this done except in Matt 27:46. The articular nom. for voc. is the almost universal choice. (2) This is especially the case in quoting from the LXX (as in Heb 1:8; Heb 10:7), for the LXX is equally reticent to use the voc. form, most likely since Hebrew lacked such a form. (3) The accentuation in the Hebrew of Ps 45:7 suggests that there should be a pause between “throne” and “God” (indicating that tradition took “God” as direct address). (4) This view takes seriously the [/FONT]μέν[FONT=&quot] … [/FONT]δέ [FONT=&quot]construction in vv 7–8, while the S-PN view does not adequately handle these conjunctions. Specifically, if we read v 8 as “your throne is God” the [/FONT]δέ[FONT=&quot] loses its adversative force, for such a statement could also be made of the angels, viz., that God reigns over them.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot] Besides the Targum renders the verse of Ps 45:
The throne of your glory, O Lord, lasts forever and ever; the scepter of your kingdom is an upright scepter.[/FONT]
It is O Lord. [vocative not nominative]


If anyone is having trouble understanding the [FONT=&quot]Nominative for Vocative,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] I can suggest some Greek grammar books.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[Shermana]

So apparently in John 20:28, John said "O Lord of me, and O God of me!" Pretty awkward.

Oh me, and oh my.

As for Psalm 22:2, there actually is no Article (or Vocative) whatsoever there. It's totally interpolated. No Article at all. Ain't that interesting. It SHOULD read:

Young's Literal Translation
My God, I call by day, and Thou answerest not, And by night, and there is no silence to me.

If you're going to use examples, try using ones that actually have the Article in question.

 

[Mark2020]

So apparently in John 20:28, John said "O Lord of me, and O God of me!" Pretty awkward.

Oh me, and oh my.

I see you still don't understand Nominative for Vocative.
If you don't have books about Greek grammar, I'll may show you some.

 

[Mark2020]

As for Psalm 22:2, there actually is no Article (or Vocative) whatsoever there. It's totally interpolated. No Article at all. Ain't that interesting. It SHOULD read:

If you're going to use examples, try using ones that actually have the Article in question.

I hope you're done editing.
I already have. But I see you just argue without reading or even trying to understand anything.
Want more quotes from your posts?

 

[waitasec]

If you don't think you have to prove anything, you've spoken volumes, and you're on the wrong forum. Try the discussion forums if you don't think you have to actually prove your own case.

interesting, isn't it?

 

[waitasec]

(Mark 14:42 [KJV]) Rise up, let us go; lo, he that betrayeth me is at hand.
Probably this is more accurate:
(Mark 14:42 [NET]) Get up, let us go. Look! My betrayer is approaching!”
He said this before he came. So He knew he was coming. As I said before, and from Mark too:
(Mark 14:18 [NIV]) While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me--one who is eating with me."

Anyway, here is a good site with a lot of commentaries about the bible.
Gill's is one of the best.
Genesis 1:1 Hebrew Texts and Analysis
You can select a verse, and click "comment" to find commentaries.

i didn't see any commentaries but the translation for ἄγωμεν is
"let us be going"
jesus wanted the apostles to look out for his betrayer, he didn't want the apostles to fall into the temptation of sleep in order to watch out for his betrayer...

so jesus as god wanted a look out...
strange...he's god after all.

 

[Mark2020]

interesting, isn't it?

Yes, interesting.
Because I had already proved it.
Did you even read the discussion?

 

[Mark2020]

i didn't see any commentaries but the translation for ἄγωμεν is
"let us be going"...

I think we've discussed this more than enough, and I gave you a lot of evidences to disprove your view.
If you want, we can discuss them. But what you are doing is totally ignoring what I said and repeating your argument again.
I suggest you read what we discussed yesterday about that point.

 

[waitasec]

I think we've discussed this more than enough, and I gave you a lot of evidences to disprove your view.
If you want, we can discuss them. But what you are doing is totally ignoring what I said and repeating your argument again.
I suggest you read what we discussed yesterday about that point.

can you show me where you discussed this with me? every time i had brought up a question you said we already discussed it

 

[Mark2020]

can you show me where you discussed this with me? every time i had brought up a question you said we already discussed it

Please refer to yesterday's discussion.
I say so because you ask the same question many times even after my replies.

 

[waitasec]

your argument is that jesus wanted the apostles to stay a wake to meet his betrayer
and he didn't want to flee but was waiting for him and when he was approaching then jesus said rise lets meet him...

 

[Mark2020]

your argument is that jesus wanted the apostles to stay a wake to meet his betrayer
and he didn't want to flee but was waiting for him and when he was approaching then jesus said rise lets meet him...

I said He had already told them that one of the was going to betray Him during the last supper [even from Mark], He knew Judas was approaching Him, He didn't ask for or need their protection, He didn't ask them to "look out for His betrayer", I told you about Malchus ...
We've discussed all this yesterday.

 

[waitasec]

i want to know what it is they were watching out for, why jesus didn't want them to fall asleep. if judas was coming to betray him, why was it so important NOT to fall asleep

and when he said "rise! lets us go! here comes my betrayer!" i understand that as jesus saying lets get out of here! my betrayer is approaching! not rise let us greet my betrayer.

your explanation covered temptation...but you never got into what the temptation was all about...what was the purpose of staying awake?

 

[Awoon]

Did Jesus ever have new thoughts?

 

[Mark2020]

i want to know what it is they were watching out for, why jesus didn't want them to fall asleep. if judas was coming to betray him, why was it so important NOT to fall asleep
..

(Mark 14:38 [KJV]) Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

From Gill:
Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation,.... Of denying Christ, and falling off from him, which would quickly offer to them, when they should see him apprehended, bound, and led away.

If you're really seeking knowledge, you might try to read more. I suggested a site for you Genesis 1:1 Hebrew Texts and Analysis and I suggest Gill's exposition.
Bible Commenter.com: Parallel Bible Commentaries
Genesis 1 Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

 

[waitasec]

(Mark 14:38 [KJV]) Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

From Gill:
Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation,.... Of denying Christ, and falling off from him, which would quickly offer to them, when they should see him apprehended, bound, and led away.

If you're really seeking knowledge, you might try to read more. I suggested a site for you Genesis 1:1 Hebrew Texts and Analysis and I suggest Gill's exposition.
Bible Commenter.com: Parallel Bible Commentaries
Genesis 1 Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

why not have the apostles take jesus to judas...didn't jesus know where he was?
it's quite evident that if jesus was fully god as he was fully human and that the moment of his death was approaching (something that should be met with an agreeable anticipation, since this was his purpose for being a human in the first place) you are faced with a conundrum to solve as to why he was so distressed...
it doesn't add up. if jesus was god he didn't need to wait. he knew how and when and where this would happen because he is an omniscient god/man and saw this happening before hand. why did he not approached his betrayer and given him a kiss to show is willingness to bring atonement for humanity with a huge smile on his face? because he knew the time has now come. instead, we see him wanting his disciples to stay awake to not betray him by staying awake...why not just settle it and freely go where judas and the soldiers where at that point?
jesus was a man and only a man...and it is very telling that you rely on interpretations and text analysis for something very obviously inconsistent with the claim that jesus was god...
he never said straightforwardly that he was god because he knew that would get him killed or betray him...

and betrayal isn't the right word if this was his purpose...instead of betrayer judas was the man all men should thank for being the guy that let the cat out of the bag which was the purpose of jesus coming in human form in the first place, so i never understood why jesus called judas a betrayer...
and of course i can go on and on

there are so many more holes to fill.

 

[Mark2020]

...jesus was a man and only a man...

So it is obvious that this is what you want to believe, I can't do anything about that. I've replied to all of your questions, yet you are not willing to accept my replies, that's your choice.

Anyway if you want to read about Jesus' Divinity, which I doubt, you could have a look at this book, or at least read the titles:
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/divinity_of_christ_pope_shenouda.pdf

Gill's exposition (the link which I gave you before) is a good reference if you have questions about any verse in the bible.

 

[waitasec]

So it is obvious that this is what you want to believe, I can't do anything about that. I've replied to all of your questions, yet you are not willing to accept my replies, that's your choice.

Anyway if you want to read about Jesus' Divinity, which I doubt, you could have a look at this book, or at least read the titles:
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/divinity_of_christ_pope_shenouda.pdf

Gill's exposition (the link which I gave you before) is a good reference if you have questions about any verse in the bible.

i'm not going to any link you provide you are going to have to post the argument yourself.
i am also curious as to why you don't try to refute my argument with your own words but you rely on someone else's interpretation... you can rely on your own reasoning can't you?
besides i posted more than just that:

why not have the apostles take jesus to judas...didn't jesus know where he was?