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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
internationalist
Member
Jesus is both man and God - which is why people get confused as to whether he was man or God. It is not a simple 'either, or' thing, for he was both. So Jesus not calling himself God is understandable - that's from the PoV of Jesus the son of man.
Is Jesus 'son of man' at Revelation 3v14; 3v12; 2v18 ?
Doesn't the heavenly resurrected Jesus still believe he is the beginning of the creation by God ?
-3v14
Doesn't the heavenly resurrected Jesus still think he is the Son of God ?
-2v18
Doesn't the heavenly resurrected Jesus still think he has a God over him ?
-3v12
How many thrones does Jesus think he has at Revelation 3v21 ?
yourgraceisenough
Active Member
spot on, very well said, the Jews understood he was claiming to be God thats why they wanted him crucified...
yourgraceisenough
Active Member
spot on, very well said, the Jews understood he was claiming to be God thats why they wanted him crucified...
If the Jews understood Jesus was claiming to be God,
then why at John [10v36] did the 'Jews' say Jesus blasphemed because Jesus said, "I [Jesus] am the Son of God"?
If the Jews understood Jesus was claiming to be God,
then why at John [19v7] did the 'Jews' have a 'Jewish' law that Jesus ought to die because Jesus made himself the Son of God?
It does Not say Jesus made himself to be God.
Please notice Matthew [27vs41-43] because there the chief priest and scribes and the elders all say that Jesus said, " I [Jesus] am the Son of God."
Who do the devils think Jesus is according to Luke 4v41 ?______________
Shermana
Heretic
spot on, very well said, the Jews understood he was claiming to be God thats why they wanted him crucified...
John 10:33 is an Anarthrous, it says "You a mere man make yourself to be a god". That explains his response by quoting Psalms 82:6 and saying "Is it not written, ye are gods", the context clearly implies that they said "A god", or he wouldn't have said "ye are gods".
And his official charge was for declaring G-d to be His Father.
As for the "I am " statements, I always find it amusing when people think he was stating a name as opposed to a statement. Not to mention that the Divine name isn't even "I am" but "I shall be". And the correct translation, taking tense into account, reads: "Before Abraham was, I was" , as many translations are honest enough to indicate. Otherwise at face value if you read it as "I am", you have to read it as "Before Abraham will come to be, I am".
Also, Jesus never calls himself Alpha and Omega, perhaps in your King James version which so far I think you're a KJV-onlyist by your last attempts at exegesis. Revelation 1:8 is the Father speaking, 1:11 is a different speaker, and 22:13 is Jesus' Angel speaking conveying a message for the Father. All this is covered about 100 pages or so back.
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yourgraceisenough
Active Member
I'm pleased you said that because God cannot lie yet you assert that Jesus was the arch angel michael, but when the spirit of God fell upon Jesus at his baptism the voice said this is my son in whom i am well pleased not well done arch angel michael...
the Jews wanted Jesus dead for claiming to be God, the J?ews knew he was claiming to be God...
Jesus says I am the alpha and the omega, that is God almighty...
Shermana
Heretic
If the Jews accused of making himself to be G-d instead of "a god" (Anarthrous), explain his response about "ye are gods".
And once again, Jesus never calls himself Alpha and Omega. Only in the KJV interpolation in 1:11 which doesn't exist in the manuscripts. Only the Father says that, and Jesus' Angel says that of the Father.
And once again, Jesus never calls himself Alpha and Omega. Only in the KJV interpolation in 1:11 which doesn't exist in the manuscripts. Only the Father says that, and Jesus' Angel says that of the Father.
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yourgraceisenough
Active Member
Shermana
Heretic
You're referring to 1:11? And I'm assuming every Bible version you have is a derivative of the KJV? Was I wrong in my guess that you're a KJV-onlyist? Well, at least you're admitting you hold to the 1:11 interpolation.
As for John 10:33, I'm aware that most translations use "G-d" instead of "A god". This is a blatant doctrinal bias, as it is clearly an Anarthrous Theon. That means there is no article, so they were not meaning to imply the Father. See how in Acts 12:22 it says "He had the voice of a god"? Same thing. Either way, you have to explain his response in 10:34, which makes sense only with the "A god" reading if you want to not have Jesus be keeping in context to the accusations.
As for John 10:33, I'm aware that most translations use "G-d" instead of "A god". This is a blatant doctrinal bias, as it is clearly an Anarthrous Theon. That means there is no article, so they were not meaning to imply the Father. See how in Acts 12:22 it says "He had the voice of a god"? Same thing. Either way, you have to explain his response in 10:34, which makes sense only with the "A god" reading if you want to not have Jesus be keeping in context to the accusations.
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yourgraceisenough
Active Member
No not at all, even the bible software with loads of different bibles all have the same thing..
Jesus saying I am the alpha and the ~Omega ...
Jesus saying I am the alpha and the ~Omega ...
Shermana
Heretic
You're referring to 1:11? I'm asuming all the different bibles in your software are all derivatives of the KJV. Do you know why most versions don't have the Alpha and Omega there? Do you think they just deleted it there because they're non Trinitarian versions? (The NIV is not exactly non-Trinitarian for example). Are you aware of the whole "Manuscript evidence" criteria? I'm assuming you're not familiar with the fact that its universally considered an interpolation. Even Mark 2020 would agree that there's no ALpha and Omega in 1:11.
http://bible.cc/revelation/1-11.htm
http://bible.cc/revelation/1-11.htm
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yourgraceisenough
Active Member
my bibles cover many and varied versions, my bible software cover 30 or more varied bibles, they all say Jesus said I am the alpha and the Omega....
yourgraceisenough
Active Member
hang on may take a while...
yourgraceisenough
Active Member
verses 8-11-18 are all Jesus speaking....
Shermana
Heretic
Examining the Trinity: AO - Speaker Confusion
The Speaker confusion issue is so rife you have to wonder if it's deliberately pushed by the mainstream establishment.
The Speaker confusion issue is so rife you have to wonder if it's deliberately pushed by the mainstream establishment.
yourgraceisenough
Active Member
8 ἘγώNPN-1Sἐγώ εἰμιVIPA--1Sεἰμί τὸDNNSὁ ἌλφαN-NN-Sἄλφα καὶCCκαί τὸDNNSὁ ὮN-NN-SΩ, λέγειVIPA--3Sλέγω κύριοςN-NM-Sκύριος ὁDNMSὁ θεόςN-NM-Sθεός, ὁ+;DNMS;DNMS+ὁ ὢνVPPANM-Sεἰμί καὶCCκαί ὁ+;DNMS;DNMS+ὁ ἦνVIIA--3Sεἰμί καὶCCκαί ὁ+;DNMS;DNMS+ὁ ἐρχόμενοςVPPNNM-Sἔρχομαι, ὁDNMSὁ παντοκράτωρN-NM-Sπαντοκράτωρ.
8‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is coming—the Almighty.’
8£ “I am the first and the last,” says the Lord God Almighty, who is, who was, and who is to come.
8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
8I am Alpha and Omega,° the beginning and the end, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.