Did Jesus say he was God???

[Dirty Penguin]

In John 7:1, they sought to kill Him for other reasons: "for healing a man on the sabbath day, and for asserting his equality with God" (Gill)

But in John 8:59, they wanted to stone Him for saying He is God, as previously explained.

It was his actions and sayings which were the reasons they wanted to kill him. The ultimate insult, at least to them, was his claim to exist before Abraham came into being. Their attempt at stoning him was unlawful but they sought not the law because they were enraged.

 

[outhouse]

In John 7:1, they sought to kill Him for other reasons: "for healing a man on the sabbath day, and for asserting his equality with God" (Gill)

But in John 8:59, they wanted to stone Him for saying He is God, as previously explained.


You're obviously trying to change the subject again, since I used another verse. I told you before (but you ignored) that "on" is the present participle of "eimi", and agian used absolutely. And I showed before that in Revelation 1 Jesus used "ho on".

Again:

[FONT=&quot]The contrast between [/FONT]γενεσθαι[FONT=&quot][genesthai] (entrance into existence of Abraham) and [/FONT]εἰμι[FONT=&quot][eimi] (timeless being) is complete. See the same contrast between [/FONT]ἐν[FONT=&quot] [en] in 1:1 and [/FONT]ἐγενετο[FONT=&quot] [egeneto] in 1:14. See the contrast also in Psa. 90:2 between God ([/FONT]εἰ[FONT=&quot] [ei], art) and the mountains ([/FONT]γενηθηναι[FONT=&quot] [genēthēnai]). See the same use of [/FONT]εἰμι[FONT=&quot] [eimi] in John 6:20; 9:9; 8:24, 28; 18:6.[/FONT]

γενέσθαι and εἰμί are simply different verbs. If the meaning intended was that Jesus came into existence like Abraham, but before him, the same verb would have been used.

John 8:58
I tell you the truth, Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί


Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

πρὸ τοῦ ὄρη γενηθῆναι καὶ πλασθῆναι τὴν γῆν καὶ τὴν οἰκουμένην καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος ἕως τοῦ αἰῶνος σὺ εἶ

Note how "eimi" is used absolutely here too: σὺ εἶ (You are God)

The two verses are very similar:

σὺ εἶ: you are (You are God)
ἐγὼ εἰμί: I am
The same verb ειμι, Present active indicative. (used in the absolute sense)

So by comparison, it means "I am God".

all of which has nothing at all with the real jesus may have said.

the author of J never knew or met jesus or ever heard a word pass the mans lips.


even if we go with your fantasy your taking it out of context as Mr penguin has pointed out

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Throwing the word God at the end of that doesn't even make sense in the context of what is being said. If he wanted to say he is God then there was no reason to involve Abraham and certainly no reason to say "Before".

Yea, it makes me think of Paul. In his story we find the (ascended) Yeshua saying to him...

Acts 9:5
......I am Jesus whom you are persecuting......
......ἐγώ εἰμι Ἰησοῦς ὃν σὺ διώκεις .....

At least here it gives a clear identification as to whom he is. I wonder why he didn't just tell Paul he was "God"....(I am Jesus, your god, who you are persecuting)....

Either an existence before abraham is being explained or he is just saying he has greater authority and I lean toward the latter. Either way they were very quick to grab stones no matter what he said.

Yep. He called them liars and that their father was the devil and that they were just like him. That's more than enough to get a rock or two thrown at you.

 

[Mark2020]

It was his actions and sayings which were the reasons they wanted to kill him. The ultimate insult, at least to them, was his claim to exist before Abraham came into being. Their attempt at stoning him was unlawful but they sought not the law because they were enraged.

I've already explained why this isn't just claiming to have existed before Abraham (linguistically and in the light of the OT), rather declaring that He is God.

You obviously have got nothing now, since you've ignored replying to anything that I said about the verse (more than once).

 

[Mark2020]

all of which has nothing at all with the real jesus may have said.

the author of J never knew or met jesus or ever heard a word pass the mans lips.


even if we go with your fantasy your taking it out of context as Mr penguin has pointed out

Today's entertainment

 

[Mark2020]

Acts 9:5
......I am Jesus whom you are persecuting......
......ἐγώ εἰμι Ἰησοῦς ὃν σὺ διώκεις .....

This shows that you have no idea about what I explained more than once, and about what you've been trying to reply to.

 

[Mark2020]

[FONT=&quot]The contrast between [/FONT]γενεσθαι[FONT=&quot][genesthai] (entrance into existence of Abraham) and [/FONT]εἰμι[FONT=&quot][eimi] (timeless being) is complete. See the same contrast between [/FONT]ἐν[FONT=&quot] [en] in 1:1 and [/FONT]ἐγενετο[FONT=&quot] [egeneto] in 1:14. See the contrast also in Psa. 90:2 between God ([/FONT]εἰ[FONT=&quot] [ei], art) and the mountains ([/FONT]γενηθηναι[FONT=&quot] [genēthēnai]). See the same use of [/FONT]εἰμι[FONT=&quot] [eimi] in John 6:20; 9:9; 8:24, 28; 18:6.[/FONT]

γενέσθαι and εἰμί are simply different verbs. If the meaning intended was that Jesus came into existence like Abraham, but before him, the same verb would have been used.

John 8:58
I tell you the truth, Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί


Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

πρὸ τοῦ ὄρη γενηθῆναι καὶ πλασθῆναι τὴν γῆν καὶ τὴν οἰκουμένην καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος ἕως τοῦ αἰῶνος σὺ εἶ

Note how "eimi" is used absolutely here too: σὺ εἶ (You are God)

The two verses are very similar:

σὺ εἶ: you are (You are God)
ἐγὼ εἰμί: I am
The same verb ειμι, Present active indicative. (used in the absolute sense)

So by comparison, it means "I am God".

ἐγὼ εἰμί[FONT=&quot] used absolutely, where no predicate is expressed or implied, is the equivalent of the solemn [/FONT][FONT=&quot]אֲנִי־הוּא[/FONT][FONT=&quot], I (am) He, which is the self-designation of Yahweh in the prophets.[/FONT]

I forgot to say:

QED

 

[outhouse]

this is exactly why a roman emporer Constantine had to step in and tell the bishops what they were forced to follow or be banished.

tisk tisk

 

[Dirty Penguin]

This shows that you have no idea about what I explained more than once, and about what you've been trying to reply to.

Just because I disagree does not mean I don't understand. This should be quite obvious by now. I get where you're going with the one scholar your keep quoting. I've listed a few highly qualified in that respective field and they disagree with your trinitarian one. Have you found a non-trinitarian scholar that subscribes to your view?

 

[Mark2020]

Just because I disagree does not mean I don't understand. This should be quite obvious by now. I get where you're going with the one scholar your keep quoting.

You know it's not one scholar.

I've listed a few highly qualified in that respective field and they disagree with your trinitarian one.

And they are proved to be wrong using a single verse. (which you ignore every time)

Have you found a non-trinitarian scholar that subscribes to your view?

I've proved it using the bible itself. Or don't you read what you try to reply to.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You know it's not one scholar.

OK, two then...

 

[Mark2020]

OK, two then...

lol
That's what you're left with?
I could paste other scholars' opinions supporting the same view. But you couldn't even disprove one with any of your scholars.

 

[outhouse]

To bad you cannot refute the facts that shut your guess down


Gospel of John - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Today the majority of scholars do not believe that John or any other eyewitness wrote it.


so how do you know what jesus said?

 

[outhouse]

One thing about ancient men. they didnt mince words when it comes to myhology.

had jesus said he was a deity it would be very clear and chapter after chapter on it. Would have been a whole book on it by a new unnamed author or authors.

as it stands now you have to imagine your way into defining him as any sort of deity.

 

[Mark2020]

Today the majority of scholars do not believe that John or any other eyewitness wrote it.

More expected dishonesty in quoting.
Anyway, thanks for the entertainment.

 

[outhouse]

More expected dishonesty in quoting.
Anyway, thanks for the entertainment.

because you dont carry the knowledge to begin to refute it doesnt change the facts.

I supplied the link stating said facts.

 

[Mark2020]

One thing about ancient men. they didnt mince words when it comes to myhology...

Keep on please.

Having proved my point (for like the tenth time or more), I am willing for some entertainment.

 

[outhouse]

More expected dishonesty in quoting.
Anyway, thanks for the entertainment.

then you wont like these facts you keep hiding from LOL :yes:


The final composition's comparatively late date, and its insistence upon Jesus as a divine being walking the earth in human form, renders it highly problematical to scholars who attempt to evaluate Jesus' life in terms of literal historical truth,

 

[Mark2020]

because you dont carry the knowledge to begin to refute it doesnt change the facts.

I supplied the link stating said facts.

... and as usual cut part of the sentence to support your view.
But never mind, that's entertaining.

 

[outhouse]

Keep on please.

Having proved my point (for like the tenth time or more), I am willing for some entertainment.

you havnt proved a thing other then a completely biased view of scripture