Did Jesus say he was God???

[musharraf]

1)'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!' (John 8:58)

what i understood with this verse that this is the verse where christian found dual support about divinity of christ . (according to thier understanding of bible)
first support that jesus claimed his perior existance even before abraham born.
second one is the word "I AM" WHICH JESUS USED FOR HIMSELF S GOD USED IN THE BOOK OF EXODUS CHAPTER 3
lets discuss the perior existance of christ before abraham .
i want to ask christian does existance of jesus before abraham even before adam make him god?
if so !
than see this

The conclusion drawn from it is that Jesus must be God, since his existence predates his birth on earth. However, the concept of the pre-existence of the prophets, and of man in general, exists in both the Old Testament, as well as in the Qur‘aan. Jeremiah described himself in The Book of Jeremiah 1:4-5 as follows: “ Now the word of the Lord came to me saying,

‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.’

does this make jeremiah equel to god
Prophet Solomon is reported in Proverbs 8:23-27, to have said, “23Ages ago I was set up at the first, before the beginning of the earth
dos soloman is god ?
and the verse contineu
24When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water, 25Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; 26before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world 27When he established the heavens, I was there.”
does this make solomen equel or a part of trinity ?


According to Job 38:4 and 21, God addresses Prophet Job as follows: “4Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding... 21You Know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!”

Consequently, Prophet Jesus’ statement, “Before Abraham was, I am,” cannot be used as evidence of his divinity. Within the context of John 8:54-58, Jesus is purported to have spoken about God’s knowledge of His prophets, which predates the creation of this world.

now lets discuss the second part that is "I AM"
In Exodus chapter 3, God allegedly says: "I am what I am." Long before the time of Jesus,
there existed a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint. The key word, "I am," in Exodus which is used by Christians to prove the deity of Jesus is translated as "HO ON."
However, when Jesus uses the word in John 8:58 the Greek of the "I am," is EGO EIMI.
If Jesus wanted to tell the Jews that he was claiming to be God he should have at least remained consistent in the use of words or the whole point is lost. How many people in that age would have said "I am," in answer to questions in everyday life. Billions. Are they all gods? Of course not !.
I dont no what so difficult when this word :I AM: is used by jesus is ego eimi ( written in the greejk text)
and when god himself used it is "HO ON "
WHAT SO DIFFICULT GO AND READ THE SCRIPTURE
IN GREEK ( BUT HOW SAD THE ORIGNAL SCRIPTURE IS PRESENT NOW A DAYS IS IN GREEK !
THOUGH JESUS P.B.U.H SPEEK ARAMIC OR HEBROW ?

 

[Popeyesays]

Musharraf,

If you read back, you'll see this has already been discussed. The Greek for "I am" actually means "I existed". So "Before Abraham, I existed", which is just the point you are making. DreGod has discussed this pretty much as far as it will go.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Dregod - I am simply saying that if you are going to read and analyze something such as scriptures, it seems logical to me that one must approach the subject from the correct perspective. I was simply saying that because God is from another world (obviously) then reading it in pure "black and white" would be wrong.

I didn't simply look at it, read it and come to the conclusion that because it was in plain black and white then I must be right. I have actually studied that verse for years. If you go back to any post I have on John 8:58 you will see that I remain consistent that Yeshua said (he existed before Abraham). The actual biblical (basic english) verse that have used a couple of post ago is from a online bible by christians who believe Yeshua is God. I found it interesting that they didn't render it to mean he was God but why would they? That's not what the verse means and I believe they realized that. The meat of the conversation I had with Muffled was on John 8:58. That is why I said it was in black and white. The bible does not always have to be read or understood in a mysterious way. That particular verse has been used by christians far too long to prove Yeshua is God and it time to end that misconception. Some christians Will tell you that they have thought long and hard about that verse and it means exactly what they think it means and that is Yeshua is God and refrence Exodus.


The problem with that is a novice of the scripture can come along and clearly see that is not what it means at all. It make such a minor mistake in their reasoning then we must examine all their claims of Yeshua being God. In doing so I have found no proof that out of the 4 gospels Yeshua reveals himself to be God or any of his followers thinking he was God. See I'm not trying to analyze God at all I analyzed the implication that Yeshua claimed to be God. In my research it was revealed to me that, that statement does not mean he is God. We must do away with that verse and move on. It's unfortunate that I am accused of not understanding scripture but the correct approach and logical one when you finally understand the meaning of (I am) used in greek there is Yeshua said ("I existed")..That's all that he meant.

 

[Buttons*]

Mark 17:5 states "While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"

This verse makes it very clear that Jesus is the son of God.

are we not all sons and daughters of God... whom he loves? LOL

 

[Dirty Penguin]

1)'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!' (John 8:58)

what i understood with this verse that this is the verse where christian found dual support about divinity of christ . (according to thier understanding of bible)
first support that jesus claimed his perior existance even before abraham born.
second one is the word "I AM" WHICH JESUS USED FOR HIMSELF S GOD USED IN THE BOOK OF EXODUS CHAPTER 3
lets discuss the perior existance of christ before abraham .
i want to ask christian does existance of jesus before abraham even before adam make him god?
if so !
than see this

The conclusion drawn from it is that Jesus must be God, since his existence predates his birth on earth. However, the concept of the pre-existence of the prophets, and of man in general, exists in both the Old Testament, as well as in the Qur‘aan. Jeremiah described himself in The Book of Jeremiah 1:4-5 as follows: “ Now the word of the Lord came to me saying,

‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.’

does this make jeremiah equel to god
Prophet Solomon is reported in Proverbs 8:23-27, to have said, “23Ages ago I was set up at the first, before the beginning of the earth
dos soloman is god ?
and the verse contineu
24When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water, 25Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; 26before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world 27When he established the heavens, I was there.”
does this make solomen equel or a part of trinity ?


According to Job 38:4 and 21, God addresses Prophet Job as follows: “4Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding... 21You Know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!”

Consequently, Prophet Jesus’ statement, “Before Abraham was, I am,” cannot be used as evidence of his divinity. Within the context of John 8:54-58, Jesus is purported to have spoken about God’s knowledge of His prophets, which predates the creation of this world.

now lets discuss the second part that is "I AM"
In Exodus chapter 3, God allegedly says: "I am what I am." Long before the time of Jesus,
there existed a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint. The key word, "I am," in Exodus which is used by Christians to prove the deity of Jesus is translated as "HO ON."
However, when Jesus uses the word in John 8:58 the Greek of the "I am," is EGO EIMI.
If Jesus wanted to tell the Jews that he was claiming to be God he should have at least remained consistent in the use of words or the whole point is lost. How many people in that age would have said "I am," in answer to questions in everyday life. Billions. Are they all gods? Of course not !.
I dont no what so difficult when this word :I AM: is used by jesus is ego eimi ( written in the greejk text)
and when god himself used it is "HO ON "
WHAT SO DIFFICULT GO AND READ THE SCRIPTURE
IN GREEK ( BUT HOW SAD THE ORIGNAL SCRIPTURE IS PRESENT NOW A DAYS IS IN GREEK !
THOUGH JESUS P.B.U.H SPEEK ARAMIC OR HEBROW ?

I have covered a lot of this as well as far back in the thread as I can remember. You are totally correct. We get a clarification as to his posistion before Abraham because of his prayer to his god in John 17:5.

John
17:5 And now,O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had (WITH YOU) before the world was.

 

[Muffled]

1)'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!' (John 8:58)

what i understood with this verse that this is the verse where christian found dual support about divinity of christ . (according to thier understanding of bible)
first support that jesus claimed his perior existance even before abraham born.
second one is the word "I AM" WHICH JESUS USED FOR HIMSELF S GOD USED IN THE BOOK OF EXODUS CHAPTER 3
lets discuss the perior existance of christ before abraham .
i want to ask christian does existance of jesus before abraham even before adam make him god?
if so !
than see this

The conclusion drawn from it is that Jesus must be God, since his existence predates his birth on earth. However, the concept of the pre-existence of the prophets, and of man in general, exists in both the Old Testament, as well as in the Qur‘aan. Jeremiah described himself in The Book of Jeremiah 1:4-5 as follows: “ Now the word of the Lord came to me saying,

‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.’

does this make jeremiah equel to god
Prophet Solomon is reported in Proverbs 8:23-27, to have said, “23Ages ago I was set up at the first, before the beginning of the earth
dos soloman is god ?
and the verse contineu
24When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water, 25Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; 26before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world 27When he established the heavens, I was there.”
does this make solomen equel or a part of trinity ?


According to Job 38:4 and 21, God addresses Prophet Job as follows: “4Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding... 21You Know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!”

Consequently, Prophet Jesus’ statement, “Before Abraham was, I am,” cannot be used as evidence of his divinity. Within the context of John 8:54-58, Jesus is purported to have spoken about God’s knowledge of His prophets, which predates the creation of this world.

now lets discuss the second part that is "I AM"
In Exodus chapter 3, God allegedly says: "I am what I am." Long before the time of Jesus,
there existed a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint. The key word, "I am," in Exodus which is used by Christians to prove the deity of Jesus is translated as "HO ON."
However, when Jesus uses the word in John 8:58 the Greek of the "I am," is EGO EIMI.
If Jesus wanted to tell the Jews that he was claiming to be God he should have at least remained consistent in the use of words or the whole point is lost. How many people in that age would have said "I am," in answer to questions in everyday life. Billions. Are they all gods? Of course not !.
I dont no what so difficult when this word :I AM: is used by jesus is ego eimi ( written in the greejk text)
and when god himself used it is "HO ON "
WHAT SO DIFFICULT GO AND READ THE SCRIPTURE
IN GREEK ( BUT HOW SAD THE ORIGNAL SCRIPTURE IS PRESENT NOW A DAYS IS IN GREEK !
THOUGH JESUS P.B.U.H SPEEK ARAMIC OR HEBROW ?

You are correct in the first part. All of us pre-existed, so such a statement does not distinguish who Jesus is but it does answer the question "Have you seen Abraham?".
The question is: How did Jesus see Abraham and why did Abraham rejoice to see His day? The "I am" answers that, in that Abraham saw God walking with two angels and talked with God in person.

Dre has me totally confused by his Greek exposition. I see a definition that says the word is present tense but he is saying it should be past tense. It would be nice if he could explain better. Sometimes the KJV is in error in translation and later translations correct the error. However I have a very recent translation and the "I am" is still there. Why do all these scholars stake their reputation on a translation if that translation is incorrect?

 

[Muffled]

Lew,

Dre isn't saying Jesus is not Divine, He is saying Jesus is not GOD. Nothing Dre or I have said has challenged the divine nature of Jesus. I accept that divine nature unequivocally.

I believe God is the Most Hidden of the Hidden and the Most Manifest of the Manifest. We stare into the face of God all the time whereever we may look, but we lack the ability to discern Him in His Essence. That Essence cannot be contained within a human vessel, or even within the bounds of the entire universe. Jesus cannot BE God.

On the other hand, since we never can see GOD, and we can see Jesus; that makes Jesus the closest thing to God we might ever perceive.

Isn't that really enough?

Regards,
Scott

As to your previous question, if Jesus had said "before Abraham was born, I am tired" it would not have the same meaning as "before Abraham was born, I am." The I am statment is a statement of eternal presence. Only God has ever used that statement in reference to Himself.

You are not speaking the truth when you say this. Your position has always been the Islamic postion of believing that Jesus was (merely) a messenger. (As far as I can tell the "merely" is an Islamic add-on and not part of the original Qur'anic text.) Your belief is not that Jesus is divine but that He is human with a divine message. The statement by the Baha'u'llah about Jesus being a manifestation of God has its root in the concept that the spiritual does not become visible by instillation in a body, so the body is incapable of revealing the true (spiritual) nature of God. I would agree with that concept as far as the revealing of spirit goes but God is not an inert object (spirit) but is also intelligent. It is God's intelligence that is able to work in the body of Jesus revealing the mind of God; it is God's intelligence working through the body to perform miracles (He doesn't really need the body to do this, only to reveal that He is doing it.)

Although Jesus can't be God in the spacial sense, He is God in the intelligence and power and will of God. These are the attributes that make God personal. If I want to get to know someone, I don't say show me your big toe because it is covered by your shoe so I won't really be able to recognize you. I recognize you by you words and the way in which you speak. If you and I were to be born into new bodies, I would still know you by your words and the way you speak.

 

[blueman]

There is no doubt that this is what He claimed as outlined at the beginning of this post. As a result, Jesus could be classified as delusional, mentally impaired or the real possibility that He was who He said He was: God in the flesh. There are many things that validate His claim:

(1) Old Testament Propehcy
(2) His ministry and miracles
(3) His prediction of His death and ressurection
(4) The empty tomb
(5) Multiple attestation of His miracles, death and resuurection through the New Testament Gospels and Paul's Epistles
(6) Disciples and subsequent Christian followers willing to die horrific deaths for their belief in Him as the Son of God
(7) Huge shift of conversions from Judiasm to Christianity within a relative short period of time (20 years) after Jesus's cruxifiction
(8) Secular references (outside of the Bible) related to Jesus's ministry and death and the growth of the Christian Movement (Josephus, Tacitus, Lucien, etc.)

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You are correct in the first part. All of us pre-existed, so such a statement does not distinguish who Jesus is but it does answer the question "Have you seen Abraham?".
The question is: How did Jesus see Abraham and why did Abraham rejoice to see His day? The "I am" answers that, in that Abraham saw God walking with two angels and talked with God in person.

Dre has me totally confused by his Greek exposition. I see a definition that says the word is present tense but he is saying it should be past tense. It would be nice if he could explain better. Sometimes the KJV is in error in translation and later translations correct the error. However I have a very recent translation and the "I am" is still there. Why do all these scholars stake their reputation on a translation if that translation is incorrect?

So what you think I'm just making this stuff up? The words listed in John 8:58 are direct from the lexicon. The lexicons do not side with you on this assertion. If you think I'm wrong then bring forth your proof. I'm going to give you some proof that I'm correct on this and it is coming from "YOUR" christian bretheren using the KJV AND a lexicon....

The whole verse
BLB (KJV) Jhn 8

EGO
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

EIMI
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Where did I say it was past tense? (AM) as the lexicon difines it can mean one or the other or both at the same time. They, like most scholars use the lexicon to make sure the verse is rendered properly. This site uses the lexicon to deine ALL of the scriptures. It is up to you to prove them wrong. Again, your problem is that verse DOES NOT indicate Yeshua to be God. It's not like I translated it. This was doen by scholars. The proof is right in your face and you still persist to challenge me on it. If you take issue with scholars holding to Yeshua being God by that verse then take it up with them and ask them for their exegetical proof. They will undoubtedly have to use some sort of dictionary or lexicon. The writer did not submit YHWH in that verse so we can't say that Yeshua was implying because there is no evidence there. When you look at the words and what they mean it is crystal clear that Yeshua did not suggest he was God....

John 8:58
Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!

John 8:58 (KJV)
I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am

These verses are practically identical and they adhere to the lexicographical rules above.


:sarcastic

 

[Dirty Penguin]

There is no doubt that this is what He claimed as outlined at the beginning of this post.

John 8:58 has been proven that Yeshua did not say he was God...At all...

(1) Old Testament Propehcy

Prophecy that God was to send the Messiah that's all.

(2) His ministry and miracles

He wasn't the only prophet/messenger to perform miracles.

(3) His prediction of His death and ressurection

The power to do the things he did was by permission of his god. All power was GIVEN to him in heaven. In order to be given something there must be a giver.

(4) The empty tomb

Hardly a proof of deity. Divine? Yes.

(5) Multiple attestation of His miracles, death and resuurection through the New Testament Gospels and Paul's Epistles

Again, his god gave him the power to do these things. Paul can attest all he wants. He never met Yeshua.

(6) Disciples and subsequent Christian followers willing to die horrific deaths for their belief in Him as the Son of God

They believed he was the son OF God but they did not believe him to BE God.

(7) Huge shift of conversions from Judiasm to Christianity within a relative short period of time (20 years) after Jesus's cruxifiction

None of this is a proof that Yeshua is God. The same can possibly be said about Islam.

(8) Secular references (outside of the Bible) related to Jesus's ministry and death and the growth of the Christian Movement (Josephus, Tacitus, Lucien, etc.)

Again, the words of men have little weight as to what THEY believed compared to what Yeshua taught. Just because they believed he was God does not make him God.

 

[Popeyesays]

There is no doubt that this is what He claimed as outlined at the beginning of this post. As a result, Jesus could be classified as delusional, mentally impaired or the real possibility that He was who He said He was: God in the flesh. There are many things that validate His claim:

BIG problem with that argument:

1) Jesus NEVER claimed to be God. John 8:58 does not make that claim.

There's another interpretation you know; "Before Abraham was: was God."

I have to say, that you're not close enough for a cigar, your horseshoe is not close enough to get a point, the argument is beyond the bast radius of your hand grenade, or even a tactical nuke.

"Verily, the century of radiance has dawned, minds are advancing, perceptions are broadening, realizations of human possibilities 380 are becoming universal, susceptibilities are developing, the discovery of realities is progressing. Therefore, it is necessary that we should cast aside all the prejudices of ignorance, discard superannuated beliefs in traditions of past ages and raise aloft the banner of international agreement. Let us cooperate in love and through spiritual reciprocity enjoy eternal happiness and peace."

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 379)



Regards,
Scott

 

[blueman]

BIG problem with that argument:

1) Jesus NEVER claimed to be God. John 8:58 does not make that claim.

There's another interpretation you know; "Before Abraham was: was God."

I have to say, that you're not close enough for a cigar, your horseshoe is not close enough to get a point, the argument is beyond the bast radius of your hand grenade, or even a tactical nuke.

"Verily, the century of radiance has dawned, minds are advancing, perceptions are broadening, realizations of human possibilities 380 are becoming universal, susceptibilities are developing, the discovery of realities is progressing. Therefore, it is necessary that we should cast aside all the prejudices of ignorance, discard superannuated beliefs in traditions of past ages and raise aloft the banner of international agreement. Let us cooperate in love and through spiritual reciprocity enjoy eternal happiness and peace."

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 379)



Regards,
Scott

Whatever Scott. I believe them to be valid, historical facts. Better than anything that you've presented.

 

[Popeyesays]

Whatever Scott. I believe them to be valid, historical facts. Better than anything that you've presented.

And totally irrelevant to the question of whether or not Jesus is God.

Regards,
Scott

 

[blueman]

And totally irrelevant to the question of whether or not Jesus is God.

Regards,
Scott

We will differ on this view. I think the facts underscore the belief that He was the Son of God and his followers were convinced of His unique nature.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

We will differ on this view. I think the facts underscore the belief that He was the Son of God and his followers were convinced of His unique nature.

Well no one has disagreed with you that he is the son OF God or that his followers thought him to be unique but NONE of them thought him to be God.

You nor Muffled are equipped to show proof that John 8:58, that christians use so dearly to prove Yeshua was claiming to be God, is Yeshua actually claiming to BE God. If there were you would have brought it.


If you continue to assert that, that verse is saying Yeshua claimed to be God and as the scholars have shown you by defining the greek words being used that he didn't then we must examine (out of the four gospels) every claim christians have made to suggest Yeshua is God. Because if you get this simple quote wrong, as I have shown you have, then you are suspect on the rest. I have dealt with ALL of the quotes Muffled listed in the beginning (the ones from the 4 gospels) and there is nothing there to suggest Yeshua is God.

 

[roli]

BIG problem with that argument:

1) Jesus NEVER claimed to be God. John 8:58 does not make that claim.

There's another interpretation you know; "Before Abraham was: was God."

I have to say, that you're not close enough for a cigar, your horseshoe is not close enough to get a point, the argument is beyond the bast radius of your hand grenade, or even a tactical nuke.

"Verily, the century of radiance has dawned, minds are advancing, perceptions are broadening, realizations of human possibilities 380 are becoming universal, susceptibilities are developing, the discovery of realities is progressing. Therefore, it is necessary that we should cast aside all the prejudices of ignorance, discard superannuated beliefs in traditions of past ages and raise aloft the banner of international agreement. Let us cooperate in love and through spiritual reciprocity enjoy eternal happiness and peace."

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 379)



Regards,
Scott

There a several scriptures that point to Jesus being God, but if he was ever proven to be God by the skeptic ,then I surmise alot of those who claim him to be just another rabbinacal teacher would be in a terrible position on the that great and terrible day when we stand before him.

 

[Francine]

1) Jesus NEVER claimed to be God. John 8:58 does not make that claim.

The claim seemed to satisfy the Jews of the time, who proceeded to pick up rocks and throw them at our Lord.

 

[Popeyesays]

The claim seemed to satisfy the Jews of the time, who proceeded to pick up rocks and throw them at our Lord.

No. That's more lacklustre apologia.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

There a several scriptures that point to Jesus being God, but if he was ever proven to be God by the skeptic ,then I surmise alot of those who claim him to be just another rabbinacal teacher would be in a terrible position on the that great and terrible day when we stand before him.

I'm sorry, Roli. That great and terrible day has slipped past you three times already.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The claim seemed to satisfy the Jews of the time, who proceeded to pick up rocks and throw them at our Lord.

Actually that's not why they wanted to stone him. They sought to kill him way before he said what he said in that verse (John 8:37). They sought to stone him after he said he "existed" before Abraham was born. The greek words "ego eimi" mean (I exist, existed).

John 8:58
Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!

John 8:58 (KJV)
I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am