Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
u will nver find Jesus said "I AM GOD,WORSHIP ME"...EVERYTHING SAID BY JESUS IMPLIES HE'S GOD? I DONT THINK SO..WHY WOULD HE PRAY TO GOD THEN?
:yes:
Why have you forsaken you, I mean me.
.Regards
DL
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
:yes:
Why have you forsaken you, I mean me.
.Regards
DL
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
There is no "implicit" or explicit claim made by the biblical Yeshua he is God. To gaze upon those scriptures and say...(Oh, right here is him implying he is God) is everyone's sad attempt to interpret these scripture to make them say something they're not saying. When read in context the story and situation is made clear. Case in point is John 8:58. When read in context it has nothing whatsoever to do with the god of the OT saying "I am".......
nawab
Active Member
well then what do the christians have to say to this,
God is distinguished from his creations, not to be comparred
How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm? Job 25:4-6
Jesus the so called God doesnt have knowledge about the last day
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mark 13:32
Jesus the so called God crys to himself when he was crucified
Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? (hebrew) My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (english)
Mathew 27:46
Jesus the so called God being impolite to his mother and his first miracle, turning water into wine, and turning Christians into drinkers there isnt any Christian nation banning alcohol.
John 2:1-10 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
2And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
3And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
4Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
5His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
6And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
7Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
8And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
9When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
I think these verses are enough to prove that Jesus is not God. there are many verses in the bible that supports me.
God is distinguished from his creations, not to be comparred
How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm? Job 25:4-6
Jesus the so called God doesnt have knowledge about the last day
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mark 13:32
Jesus the so called God crys to himself when he was crucified
Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? (hebrew) My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (english)
Mathew 27:46
Jesus the so called God being impolite to his mother and his first miracle, turning water into wine, and turning Christians into drinkers there isnt any Christian nation banning alcohol.
John 2:1-10 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
2And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
3And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
4Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
5His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
6And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
7Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
8And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
9When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew
the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now. I think these verses are enough to prove that Jesus is not God. there are many verses in the bible that supports me.
Jordan St. Francis
Well-Known Member
Dirty Penguin,
Whom do you consider Jesus to have been? Did he believe he was, as your John text at barest implies, a pre-existent figure who was with the Father before the creation of the world?
Whom do you consider Jesus to have been? Did he believe he was, as your John text at barest implies, a pre-existent figure who was with the Father before the creation of the world?
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
The biblical Yeshua considered himself to be the servant of his god that sent him. The four gospels aren't a hard read. The biblical Yeshua outright says his god "sent" him with a particular task that was to be completed. After the task was completed he, in his prayer to his god, informs his god that the task has been completed. Additionally he asks his god to glorify him with the glory he had (with) his god before the world was. See, that verse in John 17 is a confirmation to what he was trying to tell the people in John 8:58.
Also, basic biblical reading reveals that the biblical Yeshua has his "own will" in heaven, separate from his god, before his god sent him and as we fast forward to the Book of Revelation we find that God and the "Lamb" (Yeshua) are completely separate in heaven. This is where we, once again, find the "Ascended" Yeshua revealing to John he has a god.
I don't know about you but I'm not sure why this "God" would ascend back to his throne only to inform his disciple he has a god...!!!!??!!
So the biblical Yeshua said he had a god before and after he ascended..... So no....He's not God....
Jordan St. Francis
Well-Known Member
But what kind of servant do you think he considered himself to be? The text according to John has him believing that he lived before Abraham (in your more narrow reading), and the Prologue teaches that Jesus was the Word that dwelt with God "in the beginning". He also teaches that he is the Son of Man, and Lord of the Sabbath.
Even if a mere servant of God, what kind? According to what precedent?
Even if a mere servant of God, what kind? According to what precedent?
Muffled
Jesus in me
Are you saying that God doeasn't perceive Himself worthy of worship?
Muffled
Jesus in me
That is about as logical as saying that water is made aout of dirt.
Muffled
Jesus in me
well then what do the christians have to say to this,
God is distinguished from his creations, not to be comparred
How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm? Job 25:4-6
Jesus the so called God doesnt have knowledge about the last day
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mark 13:32
Jesus the so called God crys to himself when he was crucified
Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? (hebrew) My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (english)
Mathew 27:46
Jesus the so called God being impolite to his mother and his first miracle, turning water into wine, and turning Christians into drinkers there isnt any Christian nation banning alcohol.
John 2:1-10 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
2And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
3And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
4Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
5His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
6And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
7Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
8And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
9When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew
I think these verses are enough to prove that Jesus is not God. there are many verses in the bible that supports me.
On the contrary, you have proved nothing except that you have an errant mindset that ignores the truth and champions falsehood. I have refuted your so-called reasons why you think Jesus is not God in the flesh. I have not seen one cogent argument from a Muslim yet either from the Bible or the Qu'ran that denies the deity of Jesus.
This is not a contradiction of God's nature. He devises laws for the benefit of those who need them. Evidently Jews had a culture of drinking responsibly and Arabs did not. it is not inconsistent on God's part to write different laws for different people but it is inconsistent on man's part to think that a law that was necessary for an ancient culture to also be necessary for a new culture. Also it is not possible for Christians to write God's law for Him. Instead God's law is a living law through Jesus and for that reason I do not drink to excess, knowing that my nature is not capable of handling it and the result would not be a loving act towards others.
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
siddqqeeutube
Member
I'm saying that GOD IS WORTHY OF WORSHIP but not logical for GOD to worship
Himself,,,,, the one who worship(prayed) to GOD cannot be GOD...JESUS PRAYED
TO GOD.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I'm not sure what you're asking and I fail to see the significanse of the question. The question, from what I can tell, has nithing to do with the original question asked.
What was narrow about it. Was it because I didn't read more into what was there as most of you are doing? John 8:58 has absolutely nothing to do with OT scripture. When read out of context it makes no sense to associate the two but read in context, (back a few verses), it makes sense that all he was saying was that he existed in heaven with his god before Abraham. Confirmation of this is read in John chapter 17.
but nowhere does he teach he is God.
Jordan St. Francis
Well-Known Member
Again, you consistently fail to even attempt to read this in the whole of John's theology- the Word, which is incarnate and is Christ, was in the beginning both God and the only begotten of Father (re: the Prologue), the one who dwells at the Father's heart and the effective agent of making the Father known- His very life being the Father's word and act of self-communication to human kind. To know the Son is to know the Father, the Father is in the Son- this suggests more intimate associations than what you tend to reduce it to. Jesus is quite evidently not any prophet of the Old Testament, he does not merely bring the will of God to humanity, but is Himself the very Word which God intends to bring to humanity.
Reading Christ's stament "before Abraham was, I am!", in light of the eternity of the Word as taught in the prologue, and the doctrine of the Word as the creative agent over the world (again, refer to Genesis- it is God who creates through speech, and the author of John knows this), an alternative reading is not at all improbable. The author of John is ascribing characteristics to Jesus which he very well knows are the perogatives of the divine being.
Again, to claim Lordship over the Sabbath is to claim sovereignty over an essential element constitutive of Israel's cultic life- we have the Son as both the means of creation and the means of reconcillation, as the in-flesh communication of God's will, the very reason-meaning-word-logos of God.
In fact, the very use of kyrios through out the New Testament literature consistently implies no less than that Jesus is Lord in the very same sense that YHVH is Lord.
The New Testament literature leaves us with little other than two simple choices- to consider the fulfillment of the Jewish covenant as one divided between two Lords- perhaps the most basic violation of its terms- or to read, as I suggest is the most natural and unforced reading of the text- that Jesus is understood to share in the single and uncompromised Lordship, and divinity, of YHVH.
This does not mean that the person of Jesus of Nazareth is without a God- or that he is his own God. Or that he is to be confused with the Father. He lives only from and for the Father, and so his life is relative to the Father, his God.
Nicean Christianity would formulate the above in Trinitarian terms.
Few ever claim this. Jesus is the in flesh communication of God to human kind. It is more than his mere teachings we should be paying attention to. His very act of living is a revelation. Unlike the prophets who bring revelation, Jesus is himself a revelation of the Father.
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Muffled
Jesus in me
Just saying that something isn't logical is meaningless unless you can produce the logic that proves your conclusion. All you have done is state your conclusion without any proof.
There is no verse in the Bible that suggests that God does not worship Himself. On the contrary the verses where God blows His own horn are plentiful. He gives Himself a lot of credit which sounds a lot like self worship to me.
If prayer is viewed as petitioning God, I would tend to agree but that would mean that you could read the mind of Jesus and know what the intention of His prayer is. For instance the so called Lord's Prayer was made as an example of how people should pray. At Lazarus's tomb Jesus prays but says it is for the sake of the listeners.
siddqqeeutube
Member
i understand that u believes that jesus is god?...and do u also agree
that god is omnipotent,omniscience,have authority over all?...just
reason for yourself....if jesus "god" is omnipotent(all powerful.hold
the highest authority,all knowing.etc. And he was asking ,crying
(praying) in gethsamane,.."let this cup pass away..(matt 26:39)...and
crying out "eli2 lemasabaktani" .what does it shows?.....it clearly
shows that jesus is not omnipotent,omnicience,the highest
authority.etc....there is a more,more,more
higher authority than him..cant u see?? He was crying for
help!.....is it so hard to understand?
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Right..nor is it easy to explain why the Lamb in Revelation (Yeshua - Jesus) comes before the one on the throne (God) and is deemed the only one worthy of opening the seals. Nor does it explain why the ascended Yeshua tells John, in Revelation, he has a god (Rev. 3:12)
Revelation 3:12
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my God, and they will never have to leave it. And I will write my God's name on them, and they will be citizens that comes down from heaven from my God in the city of my God--the new[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica] Jerusalem[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]. And they will have my new name inscribed upon them.[/FONT]
So biblically we have Yeshua explicitly saying he has a god while he was on earth and after his supposed ascension. He defines his role on earth...that his god is the one true god that taught him, sent him to the world and instructed him what he should say and we have the ascended Yeshua separate from his god in heaven. He enters after all the hosts of heaven were kneeling to and praising God on the throne. He enters and is deemed the only one worthy of opening the seals.........and yet we still have trinitarians claiming he is God even though he explicitly says he has a god......
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Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
You are good my friend. Your eloquence and nature speak on many levels. :clap
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
My question is this...
Why would a supposedly lying historian "Josephus" ever want to support such a heretical story?
Why would a supposedly lying historian "Josephus" ever want to support such a heretical story?