Did Jesus say he was God???

[lunamoth]

You just wanted to make the 500th post in this thread, didn't you Scott!

 

[Popeyesays]

Well, I can claim I did, but the truth is I wasn't counting.

Perhaps someone has a fire-hardened rose-wood stake, and a convenient rural crossroads where this thread can be buried and no one will note the freshly over-turned earth?

I'll provide the garlic and salt.

Regards,
Scott

 

[lunamoth]

Well, I can claim I did, but the truth is I wasn't counting.

Perhaps someone has a fire-hardened rose-wood stake, and a convenient rural crossroads where this thread can be buried and no one will note the freshly over-turned earth?

I'll provide the garlic and salt.

Regards,
Scott

LOL! I was thinking the same thing! Frubals!

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Although I doubt anybody's mind will change on the issue, here are a few things to consider:

First, as far as the gospels are concerned, I don't understand how some of you only refer and believe the quotes from Jesus, then to utterly disregard the other scriptures. Although I agree that the verses from Jesus are incredibly important (and am convinced these to be the words from Jesus), it makes no sense to then discount the other scripture from the gospel writers. Unless you are to believe that the words contained in the Bible are the only words that Jesus spoke, then the gospel writers DID have an understanding of Jesus and who he was. Yes, I know that the true writers were not direct witnesses to all of the events contained in the gospels, but to believe that they just decided to portray Jesus as God seems quite absurd.

So you say. Again, I stand firm on this. Paul never met Jesus. He claimed he saw a light and heard a voice....Not much diiferent than a few today claiming that Jesus or God spoke to them. So now I'm supposed to believe Paul because a group of people got together in the 1500's and decided for the masses what they should read as holy scripture and what was to be thrown out?

You've pulled out a few tidbits to make Jesus out to be God but ignored a slew of verses where he shows that he is not. Jesus ate, bathed and prayed like any other "man"..... Surely God would have no need to pray to himself. You believe what you want but I'm not convinced.

Second, here are some important scriptures (although these might have already been posted):

God and Jesus were the Word - this doesn't say that both contained the Word. Also, John 1:14 says it was made flesh - not that the Word was contained in someone who was flesh.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

I hope you didn't miss that one. Can you explain to us what he meant by MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.....????

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1
...the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...John 1:14

If Jesus was GOD, then how come in John 1:18 he said "No one has ever seen God, and Jesus, who is at the FATHER'S side, has made HIM known? Where the trinity in in this?

"[W]ho can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7
Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5
It doesn't say that someone who is given authority by God or has the spirit of God in him, it says God only can forgive sins.

Are you sure about that?????????

Matthew 9:6
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

9:7 And he arose, and departed to his house.

9:8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

They glorified God....(NOT JESUS)......Whom they also aknowledge GAVE power to Jesus.

[Only worship God:
Then saith Jesus unto him... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10
While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him... Matthew 9:18

Well if they were worshipping Jesus (God as you assert)...Then who was Jesus worshipping?

Lu 22:42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me;
nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

There's that "My God" again.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

This is Jesus directing his request to God..... So again....NO God in the flesh..

God and Jesus reveal themselves as "I am"
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am</I>. John 8:58

Yes he was there in the beginning of the world.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

This is Jesus directing his request to God..... So again....NO God in the flesh..


[SIZE=+2]

"...they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]This doesnt't say that the spirit of God is with us, it says that God is with us.[/SIZE]

So "They" called him Emmanuel which "They" "Interpreted" to say God with us. I don't remember Jesus ever referring to himself as such....I don't recall his followes referring to him as such. I don't even remember his mother calling him that or being instructed to call him that.


Joh 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

For some strange reason I get the sense God doesn't have to be commanded but here we see not only does Jesus say he has no authority to speak on his own but it was God that commanded him to speak and what he should say. Hey he sounds like a servent to me.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me,
for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord,
but he sent me.

Now wait a minute Jesus came forth from God because God sent him.....and he speaks not of his own authority (Which by the way denotes him being seperate)....and he was "commanded" what to say.......

I mean really.....This stuff is as clear as spring water....

 

[Lecter]

^good post.

According to the 4 Gospels, which are the closest source we have to what Jesus actually said, he never claimed to be God. There's not one single verse where Jesus says clearly, I am God, worship me.

Actually there are a number of verses that say the exact opposite.

 

[Muffled]

No it does not deny the omnipresence of God. God IS evrywhere and everywh4en but we do not perceive Him with our material senses.

Human spirits are associated with human bodies. The Spirit of God can be called upon, but the reality of God is totally beyond our capacity.

Baha`i's refer to Jesus as the Spirit of God all the time.

"Behold how the people, as a result of the verdict pronounced by the divines of His age, have cast 57 Abraham, the Friend of God, into fire; how Moses, He Who held converse with the Almighty, was denounced as liar and slanderer. Reflect how Jesus, the Spirit of God, was, notwithstanding His extreme meekness and perfect tender-heartedness, treated by His enemies. So fierce was the opposition which He, the Essence of Being and Lord of the visible and invisible, had to face, that He had nowhere to lay His head. He wandered continually from place to place, deprived of a permanent abode. Ponder that which befell Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets, may the life of all else be a sacrifice unto Him. How severe the afflictions which the leaders of the Jewish people and of the idol-worshipers caused to rain upon Him, Who is the sovereign Lord of all, in consequence of His proclamation of the unity of God and of the truth of His Message! By the righteousness of My Cause! My Pen groaneth, and all created things weep with a great weeping, as a result of the woes He suffered at the hands of them that have broken the Covenant of God, violated His Testament, rejected His proofs, and disputed His signs. Thus recount We unto thee the tale of that which happened in days past, haply thou mayest comprehend."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 56)

Regards,
Scott

Well Scott you have now said that Baha'is agree with the OP and provided a writing from Baha'u'llah to back that up. Having viewed your negative comments about the OP are we then to construe this to mean that your opinions are at odds with Baha's and the teaching of Baha'u'llah?

 

[Popeyesays]

Well, God is invisible to us, unseen. And the only way He can make Himself known is to send a Divine Messenger, animated by the Holy Spirit to teach us and be the best example of God our senses can perceive.

But even in that exalted state, He is not God. For God is ONE, not divisible nor subject to multiplication, and remains the Traceless Friend, the Ancient of Days, the Uncreated, the Creator.

So, no Jesus is not God in God's Essence. He is a Manifestation of God and Divine Teacher and as such is not God.

Regardes,
Scott

 

[Dakota Kid]

I have struggled with this many times too. I have been seeking to connect with the people in Israel(the homeland), researching and listening to Israel Radio. I have had several messages about who we are, if we are God's own. If you are an adopted son(have been grafted into through Christ), and are baptized(one baptism) into "one spirit" ,we who believe become "one people". We are God's own (Jewish or Gentile). This can be true in ;ISAIAH 44:5. We merge(walk) together as one new people. "JEHOVAH is" was a message given to me personally. I have heard two distinct names of JESUS and JEHOVAH spoken by the Holy Spirit. If we are sir-named "Israel",we should feel what they(the Jewish People)feel jointly. HOSEA 6:1-3, Oh, that we might know the LORD!:shout

 

[Muffled]

Well, God is invisible to us, unseen. And the only way He can make Himself known is to send a Divine Messenger, animated by the Holy Spirit to teach us and be the best example of God our senses can perceive.

But even in that exalted state, He is not God. For God is ONE, not divisible nor subject to multiplication, and remains the Traceless Friend, the Ancient of Days, the Uncreated, the Creator.

So, no Jesus is not God in God's Essence. He is a Manifestation of God and Divine Teacher and as such is not God.

Regardes,
Scott

"Reflect how Jesus, the Spirit of God" equate Jesus to the Spirit of God which equates Jesus to God. God does not have a spirit separate from himself. God is one.

 

[w00t]

Whatever Jesus was 2000 years ago, he is not a physical presence now!

 

[Popeyesays]

"Reflect how Jesus, the Spirit of God" equate Jesus to the Spirit of God which equates Jesus to God. God does not have a spirit separate from himself. God is one.

No. It establishes Them as separate.

Regards,

Scott

 

[YmirGF]

Well, God is invisible to us, unseen. And the only way He can make Himself known is to send a Divine Messenger, animated by the Holy Spirit to teach us and be the best example of God our senses can perceive.

That is quite an assumption Scott. You say that "god" is invisible to us, unseen" and yet Baha&#8217;u&#8217;llah himself writes about how he perceived "god". So which is it? Yet again you insist that the only way "god" makes itself "known" to us is through so-called "divine" messengers who are puppets of the Holy Spirit. This is simply not true. I would suggest you underestimate the creative power and potential of that which you claim to know.

But even in that exalted state, He is not God. For God is ONE, not divisible nor subject to multiplication, and remains the Traceless Friend, the Ancient of Days, the Uncreated, the Creator.

Yet again you insist on limiting that which you know little about. Is this your own perception or are you simply using the words of others you simply do not understand while thinking you speak from a position of knowledge?

So, no Jesus is not God in God's Essence. He is a Manifestation of God and Divine Teacher and as such is not God.

What a rather pompous pronouncement. What exactly are your qualifications to render such an opinion Scott? I would suggest you have virtually no understanding of the nature of the avatar and yet you have the unmitigated gall to come across as so wise and knowing. Is this just you or is this a "feature" of members of the Bahai&#8217;s faith?

Regards,
Paul/YmirGF

 

[Popeyesays]

That is quite an assumption Scott. You say that "god" is invisible to us, unseen" and yet Baha’u’llah himself writes about how he perceived "god". So which is it? Yet again you insist that the only way "god" makes itself "known" to us is through so-called "divine" messengers who are puppets of the Holy Spirit. This is simply not true. I would suggest you underestimate the creative power and potential of that which you claim to know.

Yet again you insist on limiting that which you know little about. Is this your own perception or are you simply using the words of others you simply do not understand while thinking you speak from a position of knowledge?

What a rather pompous pronouncement. What exactly are your qualifications to render such an opinion Scott? I would suggest you have virtually no understanding of the nature of the avatar and yet you have the unmitigated gall to come across as so wise and knowing. Is this just you or is this a "feature" of members of the Bahai’s faith?

Regards,
Paul/YmirGF

Paul,

I have no desire to respond to this either in substance or tone.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

As to how the Manifestations perceive God, They do so in symbolic means: Moses beheld a burning bush that did not consume itself. Zoroaster beheld the eternal flame, Jesus beheld the dove, Muhammed the Angel Gabriel, The Bab the head of Husayn, and Baha`u'llah the Divine Maiden.

And yes, the Manifestation is something other than the rest of humanity, His perceptions are deeper and His knowledge is given to Him as He requires it.

I am not quite sure if you know the meaning of 'avatar' or not.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Ozzie]

I have been asked to produce evidence of the divinity of Jesus. This is not just good evidence, it is overwhelming evidence.


Words of Jesus

John 14:9 ... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father
John 14:10 ... the words that I say unto you , I speak not from myself but from the Father abiding in Me doeth His works
John 14:11 ... I am in the Father and the Father in Me
John 10:30 I and My Father are one
John 10:33 ... thou being a man makest Thyself God
John 8:58 Jesus said ... before Abraham was born, Jah (Jah is the short form of Jeshovah)
John 8:59 They took up stones therefore to cast at Him
Mark 2:5 and Jesus seeing their faith saith ... thy sins are forgiven
Mark 2:7 ... who can forgive sins but one, even God
Mark 10:17 ... good teacher Mark 10:18 Why callest Me good? None is good save one, even God John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
Mat. 1:21 ... call his name Jesus; for it is He that shall save his people from their sins
Prophecies of the Messiah Jesus
Isa. 45:21 ... I, Jehovah? and there is no God else besides Me a just God and savior, there is none besides Me
Isa. 7:14 ... a sign: behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel (God with us)
Isa 9:6 a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called: Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

Attributes of God
Omnipresence
John 1:46 Nathaniel saith unto Him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him Before Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
John 1:49 Nathaniel answered him, Rabbi thou art the Son of God; thou art King of Israel.
John 1:50 Jesus answered ... thou shalt see greater things than these
Omniscience
Luke 6:8 ...the Pharisees watched Him ... that they might find how to accuse him but He knew their thoughts
John 4:17 ... Thou sayest well, I have no husband
John 4:18 for thou hast had five husbands and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband
Omnipotence
Mark 4:41 ... Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?

(He turned water into wine, multiplied bread, healed the sick and the blind, raised a man who was dead for four days)
Authority
Luke 4:36 ... for with authority and power He commandeth the unclean spirits and they come out
Mat 7:29 for He taught them as one having authority
Mat 28:18 ... Jesus ...spake... saying, all authority hath been given unto Me in heaven and on earth
The "I am" statements of Jesus
John 8:12 ... I am the light of the world
John 14:6 ... I am the way, the truth and the life
John 6:35 ... I am the bread of life
John 10:9 I am the door, by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved
John 11:25 ... I am the resurrection and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine (this is a reference to Jesus being the Paraclete)

Who are you in the flesh?

 

[YmirGF]

As to how the Manifestations perceive God, They do so in symbolic means: Moses beheld a burning bush that did not consume itself. Zoroaster beheld the eternal flame, Jesus beheld the dove, Muhammed the Angel Gabriel, The Bab the head of Husayn, and Baha`u'llah the Divine Maiden.

Hmm. I simply do not place any of these other people in the same class as the Christ, period. That is my opinion, it is just irksome that you do not preface your remarks with, "this is merely my opinion", instead of coming off like you are speaking with any factual authority.

And yes, the Manifestation is something other than the rest of humanity, His perceptions are deeper and His knowledge is given to Him as He requires it.

Knowledge is not like a plate of cookies Scott. It is something that is earned. These manifestations as you call them are much more than you might think or have been led to believe by less than accurate sources. It is my opinion that these sources claim as they do minimizing the nature of these beings while magnifying their own worth. In effect, they are riding on the coattails of the various avatars. It angers me when I see terms like "they are given" as that is an outright lie, although I will settle for calling it a simple misunderstanding. You cannot give them something they already possess and one does not get to that status by resting on their laurels. God gives them far less than they, by their own quest for understanding, get themselves.

I am not quite sure if you know the meaning of 'avatar' or not.

Given that I am not inclined to use words that I do not know the meaning of that is a puzzling statement. Without looking it up, as that would be cheating, I recall the Sanskrit definition reads something like "descent (of divinity) into flesh" -- which in effect means a "god/man" hybrid. Fully god and fully man.
From the Mighty Wiki... all in all, not a bad rendering of the term "avatar".

The word "

avatar" derives from the Sanskrit term Avat&#257;ra, meaning "incarnation" and usually refers to the deliberate descent of an immortal or divine being into the mortal realm for a special purpose. The term is used primarily in Hindu texts. For example, Krishna is the eighth avatar (incarnation) of Vishnu the Preserver, whom many Hindus worship as God. The Dasavatara are ten particular "great" incarnations of Vishnu.

I dunno Scott, how do you understand the term? It is a bit more than a cute little picture on a computer screen. I do apologize for getting hissy with you, I guess I just expect more for some reason. I wonder why that is? :flirt:

 

[Popeyesays]

"


I dunno Scott, how do you understand the term? It is a bit more than a cute little picture on a computer screen. I do apologize for getting hissy with you, I guess I just expect more for some reason. I wonder why that is? :flirt:"

You getting 'hissy' with me does not reflect badly on me, Paul. What you expect from me is not binding on me to provide.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Muffled]

Whatever Jesus was 2000 years ago, he is not a physical presence now!

Our last evidence (from the Bible) is that of a living Jesus in a body that does not die ascending into heaven. Do you have any evidence to refute our evidence?

 

[Muffled]

Who are you in the flesh?

I am a spirit created in the image of God residing in this present body. I and my wife came down from Heaven. I have had previous incarnations but I don't remember much.

 

[YmirGF]

You getting 'hissy' with me does not reflect badly on me, Paul. What you expect from me is not binding on me to provide.

I don't believe it reflects badly on myself either Scott other than perhaps to you. I am not particularly interested in the views of others on subjects that they know very little about but profess definitive knowledge elucidated in absolute terms.

Scott, I know I cannot force the horse to drink from water placed before its feet, but one is not being unrealistic that said horse might eventually get thirsty. Is it so hard for you and others decidedly less knowledgeable than even you to preface their statements with "I believe such and such" or "It is my opinion that this is such and such?" Realistically speaking it would only seem to be a prudent measure due to the nature of things being discussed.