Disbelievers in Christianity Answer Please!

[InvestigateTruth]

If you are still a Baha'i then it's the miracle of a mortal communicating with God. Isn't that what your religion claims?

It's been claimed that humans can't communicate with God, but your messengers can, and this is the basis for why Baha'i texts are credible and authoritative. Of course this smacks in the face of the Abrahamic religions that insist anyone can access God in some way and use this conection for guidance. This can be people in euphoria at a revival, or suicide bombers doing God's will by killing innocent infidels.

As it is we have zero in the way any evidence that God or gods exist, and anyone who believes that there is such magic occurring does so without rational thinking.

Except, Baha'u'llah is not an ordinary human spiritually. He is a different creation. His Physical body, is human though but not His spirit.
Beside this, i dont accept this blindly. We know Baha'u'llah did not have education, and was in prison and exile most of His life, so, where did He learn all that stuff, if He wasn't the manifestation of God? He wrote over 100 volumes of scriptures. Where was He getting the information and knowledge?

 

[Trailblazer]

I would suggest this is a cop-out and an easy means to deflect a hard truth. Given the claimed abilities of these entities, it is illogical to assert that such an entity would be incapable of convincing even the most recalcitrant denier.

It is not about capability......
God would only convince everyone if God wanted to. An All-Powerful God only does what He wants to do. That is what atheists totally miss.

It is obvious that God does not want to convince everyone because an All-Powerful God could do that if He wanted to.

The fact that a sufficient and simple effort on the part of the claimed entity to present itself in a verifiable way does not occur speaks loudly against the veracity of such an entity.

No, it only means that God does not want to be verifiable. This is simple logic.
Who gets to choose if God is verifiable or not, God or humans?

It is obvious that God does not want to be verifiable because God could be verifiable if He wanted to be verifiable.

 

[Bthoth]

Suppose, He comes down from Sky, and declairs He is Christ!

To prove it, He will take you, to some of your loved ones grave, and resurrects them. Those are grandparents or some close relatives and friends, and you know they had passed away and were in that graves.

Now, please answer the Poll, based on this event. Assume it happend

Why not just do it here?

 

[Bthoth]

It would be an observation, thus knowledge, not belief. Belief only applies to ideas that can't be verified as true. So I can't answer your poll since it doesn't offer the only valid option.

If someone actually resurrected dead people that would be impressive.

If anyone expects that the old body is supposed to reanimate, then there is NO resurrection possible. But raising the life is possible.

The old memories upon the old body and that individual personality are gone forever.

 

[viole]

Suppose, He comes down from Sky, and declairs He is Christ!

To prove it, He will take you, to some of your loved ones grave, and resurrects them. Those are grandparents or some close relatives and friends, and you know they had passed away and were in that graves.

Now, please answer the Poll, based on this event. Assume it happend

Yes, in the same way I would believe Superman if he showed me kryptonite.

Ciao

- viole

 

[F1fan]

Except, Baha'u'llah is not an ordinary human spiritually.

According to the claims, not in fact. Objectively he's eitehr a fraud or delusional. It's unlikely he's genuine. Why? Lack of evidence.

He is a different creation. His Physical body, is human though but not His spirit.

Again, this is lore, not fact. You bought into it for non-factual reasons.

Beside this, i dont accept this blindly. We know Baha'u'llah did not have education, and was in prison and exile most of His life, so, where did He learn all that stuff, if He wasn't the manifestation of God? He wrote over 100 volumes of scriptures. Where was He getting the information and knowledge?

I find it unlikely that he wasn't influenced and lacked an imagination to invent such writings. The writings I have read are not impressive enough to be caused by a supernatural influence. You and other Baha'i have started many threads to promote your beliefs and they are not compelling to critical thinkers.

Theists like yourself underestimate the incredible claims you are making, and seem to gloss over the serious questions that suggest your texts were just creative writing by a creative mind. And let's not forget the biggest issue against Baha'i, the anti-gay rhetoric. That's a serious flaw that can't be fixed.

 

[MikeF]

It is not about capability......
God would only convince everyone if God wanted to. An All-Powerful God only does what He wants to do. That is what atheists totally miss.

It is obvious that God does not want to convince everyone because an All-Powerful God could do that if He wanted to.

No, it only means that God does not want to be verifiable. This is simple logic.
Who gets to choose if God is verifiable or not, God or humans?

It is obvious that God does not want to be verifiable because God could be verifiable if He wanted to be verifiable.

And so, we are left with deciding which is more likely. If we go with the notion that the entity could easily present itself in a verifiable way and chooses not to, we are then left with choosing from a wide assortment of such claimed entities. If we go with the option that such entities do not present themselves in a verifiable way because they are imagined human constructs, we find we have a satisfactory answer that covers all cases.

Regardless of either choice, what would it say about such an entity that behaves in a way you describe. Certainly not one worth my attention.

 

[Trailblazer]

If anyone expects that the old body is supposed to reanimate, then there is NO resurrection possible. But raising the life is possible.

What do you mean by 'raising the life'?

The old memories upon the old body and that individual personality are gone forever.

Do you mean in the raised life they are gone? Why do you think they are gone?

 

[Trailblazer]

And so, we are left with deciding which is more likely. If we go with the notion that the entity could easily present itself in a verifiable way and chooses not to, we are then left with choosing from a wide assortment of such claimed entities. If we go with the option that such entities do not present themselves in a verifiable way because they are imagined human constructs, we find we have a satisfactory answer that covers all cases.

Yes, there are two choices.
God exists and does not present Himself in a verifiable way because He chooses not to even though presumably He could, or God does not exist.

Regardless of either choice, what would it say about such an entity that behaves in a way you describe. Certainly not one worth my attention.

The way I interpret that is that if God does not behave the way I want Him to, God is not worth my attention.

Since it makes no sense to me that God would make Himself verifiable, that is not an issue for me.
I have other issues with God, but that is not one of my issues.

 

[Bthoth]

Yes, in the same way I would believe Superman if he showed me kryptonite.

Ciao

- viole

That's a conundrum in a sense, superman giving you what would destroy him power.

That's about like a church proving to you, that what they teach, expecting your submission, is all man made and no one needs them for you to be good.

 

[Bthoth]

What do you mean by 'raising the life'?

The life of your ancestors to the flesh

Do you mean in the raised life they are gone? Why do you think they are gone?

I know that they are not 'gone'. But just as you could never know what your great great great gandparents memories/experiences are such as their favorite color. Their memories and experiences are gone but their life is still here.

 

[MikeF]

The way I interpret that is that if God does not behave the way I want Him to, God is not worth my attention.

For me it would not be about wanting a proposed entity to behave in any particular way. Looking for or wanting a presupposed thing makes one highly susceptible to confirmation bias. For me it would have to start with a verified phenomenon and then from that verified point, investigate the characteristics and properties of the phenomenon, or what might have caused the phenomenon if it were an event as opposed to a thing.

I am not aware of any set of events or phenomena that support the existence of any of the many claimed entities. Individual events and phenomenon that are cited oft have stronger explanations elsewhere or else are not readily explainable given our current knowledge base. Obviously some disagree.

 

[viole]

That's a conundrum in a sense, superman giving you what would destroy him power.

Well, the God in the Bible also gives us what Kryptonite would be to Him.

That's about like a church proving to you, that what they teach, expecting your submission, is all man made and no one needs them for you to be good.

So? I already know that whatever church tells me X, then I will never take X as true without evidence beyond that church declaring itself as the source of truth. . And that is what that church does not get. But how could it get it without defeating itself?

Ciao

- voile

 

[Trailblazer]

For me it would not be about wanting a proposed entity to behave in any particular way. Looking for or wanting a presupposed thing makes one highly susceptible to confirmation bias. For me it would have to start with a verified phenomenon and then from that verified point, investigate the characteristics and properties of the phenomenon, or what might have caused the phenomenon if it were an event as opposed to a thing.

Well, maybe 'wanting' was not the right word, maybe it is 'requiring' a proposed entity to be verifiable in order to believe that entity exists.

 

[Link]

There are many religious people, who think, the Prophets had performed Miracles, and yet people did not believe after seeing it.

That is why I am asking this question.
If you actually see that Jesus resurrected Dead, would you still disbelieve?

My take is, no such miracles were ever performed. And if they were performed, there was no one who would have disbelieved.

The response of people is they imagine the Prophet to be a sorcerer or that he is possessed by entities performing the miracles. This is the response all Messengers get, there was no Messenger sent but was accused of being a sorcerer or possessed.

 

[Bthoth]

Well, the God in the Bible also gives us what Kryptonite would be to Him.

Which is what? Siegel created superman and the idea of krytonite (the terminology/make believe stone)

So? I already know that whatever church tells me X, then I will never take X as true without evidence beyond that church declaring itself as the source of truth.

No church is going to tell you that man created the gods and the dialogue professing who created the beliefs.

. And that is what that church does not get. But how could it get it without defeating itself?

Ciao

- voile

That's the joke. The church will not pass on information that could ruin it. (the truth, the actual story of how the books of bible came to exist.)

 

[Truthseeker]

@Revoltingest, since you gave my post a winner, it appears that that villain on Star Trek: The Next Generation must be who you were referring to.

In "Devil's Due", the crew of the Enterprise confront an individual claiming to be Ardra (Marta DuBois), a mythological entity from the planet Ventax II. She claims that the planet, and the orbiting Enterprise, are her legal property due to an agreement signed a thousand years earlier. Together, Captain Jean-Luc Picard (Patrick Stewart) and the crew reveal Ardra to be a con artist, leading to her arrest by the Ventaxian authorities.

I don't remember that episode. I must have watched it. My poor memory!

 

[Quintessence]

Question for anyone who wants to offer some insights. The opening post seems to implicitly assume that if one witnesses the events described, one would suddenly become Christian or something?

But why?

I mean, isn't there more to Christianity than just "believing in" Christ? Why on earth would someone throw away their longstanding cultural practices and traditions just because some high level necromancer calling themselves "Christ" cast the spell raise dead? Is there something I'm missing here? I'm not understanding why I would just abandon my religion and go "oh, I'm Christian now!" after witnessing this?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The response of people is they imagine the Prophet to be a sorcerer or that he is possessed by entities performing the miracles. This is the response all Messengers get, there was no Messenger sent but was accused of being a sorcerer or possessed.

Thus the great bounty of not making miracles a proof of the Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Suppose, He comes down from Sky, and declairs He is Christ!

To prove it, He will take you, to some of your loved ones grave, and resurrects them. Those are grandparents or some close relatives and friends, and you know they had passed away and were in that graves.

Now, please answer the Poll, based on this event. Assume it happend

If I saw someone come down out of the sky who said he was Christ, I would call 911 and admit myself into a hospital.