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Do Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
I didn't write the scripture .. God did

You don't seem interested in the OT so lets set that one aside for a moment.

Who wrote the NT?

Matthew, Peter, John, and James all knew Jesus. I will grant you they where Christ inspired.

Mark, Luke, Jude, and especially Paul, I guess we just take their word on this.

I've already proved to you that Paul was not lovingly accepted as an apostle.

You do realise that you are taking the word of a Roman/Pagan who never laid eyes on Jesus before he was crucified right?

God wrote the Bible or Pagan Paul?
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
May I point out there is absolutely no factual basis that Yeshua of Nazareth existed?
That the NT was methodically edited to create a certain vibe.

In my opinion both O&NT as well as the Quran are simply reiterations of Belief Systems from the past (not to mention confused and intentionally veiled).


You don't seem interested in the OT so lets set that one aside for a moment.

Who wrote the NT?

Matthew, Peter, John, and James all knew Jesus. I will grant you they where Christ inspired.

Mark, Luke, Jude, and especially Paul, I guess we just take their word on this.

I've already proved to you that Paul was not lovingly accepted as an apostle.

You do realise that you are taking the word of a Roman/Pagan who never laid eyes on Jesus before he was crucified right?

God wrote the Bible or Pagan Paul?
 

Bowman

Active Member
Want to hear what you can say about this, guys. Especially you Bowman...

The answer is deceptively simple, brother Larry...

Ever wonder why the "Muhammad" of Islam is so revered and spoken of in the very same breath as their god "allah"....?

This same "Muhammad" who was raised into Heaven (per Islamic tradition) ...exact same as the Biblical Jesus Christ.

The answer is that the term "Muhammad" referred to the Biblical Jesus Christ in the Koran.

Muslims have latently created an Islamic "Muahmmad"...a second one to replace the original Koranic one...

 

Bowman

Active Member
Not only do Muslims believe Yeshua (Isa) is the Messiah they believe he is a son of "God".


Quran 2:116
Waqaloo itakhatha Allahuwaladan subhanahu bal lahu ma fee alssamawatiwaal-ardi kullun lahu qanitoona
And they say, 'God has taken to Him a son. Glory be to Him! Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth; all obey His will

You seem to not really know very much about the religion of Islam. Maybe you should start there. Get acquainted with the religion and not those fanatics misinterpreting their scripture.

Not quite, brother...


وقالوا اتخذ الله ولدا سبحنه بل له ما في السموت


والأرض كل له قنتون بديع السموت والأرض وإذا قضى أمرا فإنما يقول له كن فيكون


Waqaloo itakhatha Allahu waladan subhanahu bal lahu ma fee alssamawati waal-ardi kullun lahu qanitoona badeeAAu alssamawati waal-ardi wa-itha qada amran fa-innama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu

And they said: " “allah” he has taken a Son, glory be to Him, much more certainly His that which (is) in the heavens and the earth, all are certainly obedient unto HimOriginator (of) the heavens and the earth and when commanded entirely by (the) Word, so only certainly Him, He says: "Be thou." so (it) is. (2.116 – 117)



These ayahs not only confirm that Jesus Christ is the Son, with the glory being unto Him (subhanahu), but that the entire Universe was originated (badeeAAu) by the Son and His powerful Word.
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Isn't it the same 'Story' time and time again but with new wrapping paper?
The answer is deceptively simple, brother Larry...

Ever wonder why the "Muhammad" of Islam is so revered and spoken of in the very same breath as their god "allah"....?

This same "Muhammad" who was raised into Heaven (per Islamic tradition) ...exact same as the Biblical Jesus Christ.

The answer is that the term "Muhammad" referred to the Biblical Jesus Christ in the Koran.

Muslims have latently created an Islamic "Muahmmad"...a second one to replace the original Koranic one...
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Not quite, brother...

Waqaloo itakhatha Allahu waladan subhanahu bal lahu ma fee alssamawati waal-ardi kullun lahu qanitoona badeeAAu alssamawati waal-ardi wa-itha qada amran fa-innama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu

And they said: " “allah” he has taken a Son, glory be to Him, much more certainly His that which (is) in the heavens and the earth, all are certainly obedient unto HimOriginator (of) the heavens and the earth and when commanded entirely by (the) Word, so only certainly Him, He says: "Be thou." so (it) is. (2.116 – 117)



These ayahs not only confirm that Jesus Christ is the Son, with the glory being unto Him (subhanahu), but that the entire Universe was originated (badeeAAu) by the Son and His powerful Word.

Now what you need to do is not go to (certain wikis) and randomly copy and paste incorrect translations. I've dealt with this one in a HUGE long and drawn out thread with an old member who tried to make the same claim as you. Unfortunately he as well as you are completely incorrect. Want to know why there is some strife between you and the Muslims...? Well just look at what you did above while totally missing out on the many ayats in the Quran that backs up the proper translation of that ayat.

This is what the ayat says in essence:

Zohurul Hoque: (Translates it as)
And THEY SAY (the christians): "Allah has taken a son". Glory be to Him! (Allah) Rather, whatever is in the heavens and the earth belongs to Him (Allah-God). All are obedient to Him (Allah). Originator of the heavens and the earth! And when He (Allah) decrees an affair, He then just says to it: "BE", and it becomes.

In red is my emphasis. This is because if you understand the whole chapter then it is quite clear these two verses are talking about "God" and that even though Christians were saying God has a son, NO...everything belongs to "God".

Let's have a look at a few others:

5:12
They indeed have disbelieved who say: Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things.

5:72
Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

One of the fundamental misunderstandings you and people like you have when it comes to Arabic is that you assume it should read as one continuous run on sentence and it doesn't read that way. Those slashes and dots serve a purpose and that is why scholars translating the Quran have no problem making the distinction as to who is speaking or being spoken of in the Quran. But because you like to regurgitate mis-information and weak translations you completely miss out on ayats such as:

Quran 17:111
And say: 'Praise belongs to God, who has not taken to Him a son, and who has not any associate in the Kingdom, nor any protector out of humbleness.' And magnify Him with repeated magnificats.

18:4
and to warn those who say, 'God has taken to Himself a son';

19:35
It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing, He but says to it 'Be,' and it is.

23:91
God has not taken to Himself any son
, nor is there any god with Him; for then each god would have taken off that he created and some of them would have risen up over others; glory to be God, beyond that they describe,

72:3
He -- exalted be our Lord's majesty! has not taken to Himself either consort or a son.

I think you get the point...even though there are quite a bit more verses echoing these.
 

Bowman

Active Member
Now what you need to do is not go to (certain wikis) and randomly copy and paste incorrect translations.

I have no need to copy anyone’s translation such as you do, brother.

Copying someone else’s translation forces you then to defend their rendering.




I've dealt with this one in a HUGE long and drawn out thread with an old member who tried to make the same claim as you. Unfortunately he as well as you are completely incorrect. Want to know why there is some strife between you and the Muslims...? Well just look at what you did above while totally missing out on the many ayats in the Quran that backs up the proper translation of that ayat.


Since you claim to have already been through this drill, then this should be most interesting to see who has the best understanding of the classic Arabic.





This is what the ayat says in essence:

Zohurul Hoque: (Translates it as)
And THEY SAY (the christians): "Allah has taken a son". Glory be to Him! (Allah) Rather, whatever is in the heavens and the earth belongs to Him (Allah-God). All are obedient to Him (Allah). Originator of the heavens and the earth! And when He (Allah) decrees an affair, He then just says to it: "BE", and it becomes.

In red is my emphasis. This is because if you understand the whole chapter then it is quite clear these two verses are talking about "God" and that even though Christians were saying God has a son, NO...everything belongs to "God".


Where to start…

Since you have chosen to use someone else’s rendering, then please explain why it is that قالوا is not rendered in the perfect tense.



Observing a key term…



بديع= “badeeAAu”

“badeeAAu” definition:

Active 2nd participle.Originated; invented; innovated; made done, produced, caused to be or exist, or brought into existence, newly, for the first time not having been or existed before, and not after the similitude of anything pre-existing; new; wonderful; unknown before. An originator, inventor, or innovator; one who makes, does, or produces, causes to be or exist, or brings into existence, newly, for the first time and not after the similitude of anything pre-existing.Wonderful originator, without depending upon any matter or pattern or help; wonderful thing; thing which is not after the similitude of anything pre-existing. A novelty; or thing existing for the first time; a first doer; as though meaning one who has none among his fellows to share, or participate, with him in a thing, or an affair. Such a one is the first doer in this affair; the first who has done it. Applied to a man, superlative in his kind in anything; in good and in evil; or in knowledge, or courage, or nobility. A man liberal in disposition. A full body.

It comes from the root “bada’a” (ba-dal-ayn), which means to produce something new, begin a thing, find out a new thing; create a thing. He became superlative in his kind; or it became so in its kind; in good or in evil; he was, or became, fat.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 166 - 167
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 44
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, p. 27


“BadeeAAu” only occurs twice in the entire Koran.

In both instances it is used directly in creation ex-nihilo via the Son, as thus…



بديع السموت والأرض أنى يكون له ولد ولم تكن


له صحبة وخلق كل شيء وهو بكل شيء عليم


BadeeAAu alssamawati waal-ardi anna yakoonu lahu waladun walam takun lahu sahibatun wakhalaqa kulla shay-in wahuwa bikulli shay-in AAaleemun

6.101 Originator (of) the heavens and the earth, that He has certainly been his Son, and certainly not to be his companion, and He created every thing that He will, and He on account of every thing that he will who knows.



Just as in other Koranic creation ex-nihilo ayahs, the Son, Jesus Christ, is mentioned as being present at the origin of the Universe, confirming that He is God Almighty.

Further, the distinction of Jesus’ deity is confirmed by distancing Himself from just being a “companion” (sahibatun).


As you can see and verify for yourself, the Son is the subject in both of these creation ayahs.
 

kai

ragamuffin
I think I understand the question and I don't think any Christian here would think that Yeshua comes second but do Muslims believe that? When speaking to Muslims I'm told that because they view Yeshua (Isa) as a mighty messenger...his message was delivered to the people in his day and time as other prophets had done in their day and time. Muhammad, according to them, was a prophet in their day and time who delivered the message to them. That may be why, in their Shahada, they say Muhammad is the messenger of "Allah".



All prophets are indeed considered equal but the message itself comes second doesnt it? Mohammed was the last prophet he revealed the Quran it takes them forward from the injeel. There comes a point when Christians have to divert and that point is Mohamed
 

kai

ragamuffin
This post should've put this silly thread to rest. Christianity and Islam share the same abrahamic roots. The only people who would disagree are nutty christian fundies, but they are irrelevant anyway.


You mean thay share a name in the mists of time, Its Mohammed and the Quran that defines a Muslim and a muslims perception of his God not declared Abrahamic roots.
 
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kai

ragamuffin
Thank you Father Heathen, you are exactly right.

I have one last statement about this debate:

Does ANYONE believe that Muslims, Jews, and Christians think that the earth was created by different Gods?



well they all think it was created by their own God.:) and are you saying that you beleive Allah created the Earth but didnt reveal to Mohamed the Quran then its batently obvious that someone is wrong here or your not talking about the same Allah.

Christian and the Muslim perceptions of God have enough in common to make a comparison possible, but as in any responsible comparison, the contrasts mustnt be just ignored for convenience or the reluctance to accept awkward answers.


What i mean here Rick is if your God did not reveal the Quran, then your either wrong, Muslims are wrong or its a different God
 
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Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
I have no need to copy anyone’s translation such as you do, brother.

Copying someone else’s translation forces you then to defend their rendering.







Since you claim to have already been through this drill, then this should be most interesting to see who has the best understanding of the classic Arabic.








Where to start…

Since you have chosen to use someone else’s rendering, then please explain why it is that قالوا is not rendered in the perfect tense.



Observing a key term…



بديع= “badeeAAu”

“badeeAAu” definition:

Active 2nd participle.Originated; invented; innovated; made done, produced, caused to be or exist, or brought into existence, newly, for the first time not having been or existed before, and not after the similitude of anything pre-existing; new; wonderful; unknown before. An originator, inventor, or innovator; one who makes, does, or produces, causes to be or exist, or brings into existence, newly, for the first time and not after the similitude of anything pre-existing.Wonderful originator, without depending upon any matter or pattern or help; wonderful thing; thing which is not after the similitude of anything pre-existing. A novelty; or thing existing for the first time; a first doer; as though meaning one who has none among his fellows to share, or participate, with him in a thing, or an affair. Such a one is the first doer in this affair; the first who has done it. Applied to a man, superlative in his kind in anything; in good and in evil; or in knowledge, or courage, or nobility. A man liberal in disposition. A full body.

It comes from the root “bada’a” (ba-dal-ayn), which means to produce something new, begin a thing, find out a new thing; create a thing. He became superlative in his kind; or it became so in its kind; in good or in evil; he was, or became, fat.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 166 - 167
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 44
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, p. 27


“BadeeAAu” only occurs twice in the entire Koran.

In both instances it is used directly in creation ex-nihilo via the Son, as thus…



بديع السموت والأرض أنى يكون له ولد ولم تكن


له صحبة وخلق كل شيء وهو بكل شيء عليم


BadeeAAu alssamawati waal-ardi anna yakoonu lahu waladun walam takun lahu sahibatun wakhalaqa kulla shay-in wahuwa bikulli shay-in AAaleemun

6.101 Originator (of) the heavens and the earth, that He has certainly been his Son, and certainly not to be his companion, and He created every thing that He will, and He on account of every thing that he will who knows.



Just as in other Koranic creation ex-nihilo ayahs, the Son, Jesus Christ, is mentioned as being present at the origin of the Universe, confirming that He is God Almighty.

Further, the distinction of Jesus’ deity is confirmed by distancing Himself from just being a “companion” (sahibatun).


As you can see and verify for yourself, the Son is the subject in both of these creation ayahs.

Start a new thread. Put this information in an area where Muslims can address this. I'll be happy to dip in and comment.

But to reiterate, the Quran, according to Muslims, during the time of Muhammad was committed to memory. That I know of all Qurans are exactly the same. During the time of Muhammad there was the classical Arabic. There were no slashes, dot or vowels. This made it easy for Muslims to memorize the Quran. As I have been told, after Muhammad died the Quran was written down and some time later the points and vowels were added for others to be able to read easily.

I understand your question above but in reality it means absolutely nothing considering the rest of the surrounding Surahs and ayats. Basically you, or whomever translation you're using, is incorrect. If you didn't use someone elses translation then I'd like to know your credentials to be able to translate Classical Arabic.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
well they all think it was created by their own God.:) and are you saying that you beleive Allah created the Earth but didnt reveal to Mohamed the Quran then its batently obvious that someone is wrong here or your not talking about the same Allah.

Christian and the Muslim perceptions of God have enough in common to make a comparison possible, but as in any responsible comparison, the contrasts mustnt be just ignored for convenience or the reluctance to accept awkward answers.


What i mean here Rick is if your God did not reveal the Quran, then your either wrong, Muslims are wrong or its a different God

It must be the same god because Arabic speaking Christians call upon the title (Allah) in their Arabic bibles as well as in their prayers. We find this to be true with both the OT and NT.

ﺗﻜﻮﻳﻦ 1 - Passage*Lookup - Arabic Life Application Bible - BibleGateway.com

In Genesis alone, from verses 1-31 the title (Allah) appears 29 times. So we must conclude that in essence Christians and Muslims call upon the same god. You both may be correct that it is most likely the perception of "God" that sets them apart as well as other factors (i.e. trinity and divinity of Yeshua) to name a few.
 
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dadman

Member
You've shown a serious lack of knowledge concerning the Christian Faith right out the gate so .. Blah



if someone hands you a dollar bill ..
how do you know it is not fake ?? ..
with the proliferation of the PC and printer ..
are you sure the dollar/s in your possession are real or fake ?? .. remember ..
a counterfit wants to be as close to the real as possible . . . . continue
 
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Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
You've shown a serious lack of knowledge concerning the Christian Faith right out the gate so .. Blah



if someone hands you a dollar bill ..
how do you know it is not fake ?? ..
with the proliferation of the PC and printer ..
are you sure the dollar/s in your possession are real or fake ?? .. remember ..
a counterfit wants to be as close to the real as possible . . . . continue

However you try to rationalize it...you've shown NO evidence that Islam is to be considered "fake" over Christianity. Even though this thread isn't really intended for that.

Do Christians and Muslims worship the same god? Yes they do. In essence I have shown they do. As others have pointed out..there may be the perception of "God" that sets them apart.
 
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