Do Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

[Renji]

To Christians he is divine, to Muslims he is not , i think that sums it up, you cant have it both ways either he is divine or he isnt, either he is worshipped as a god or he isnt.

If someone prays to Jesus as divine he is not praying to Allah. Which in a nutshell is why Christians cannot enter Paradise.

This is the big issue here. The Bible clearly stated that salvation is through Jesus Christ:

John 3:16- "For God so loved the world that He gave us His only begotten Son, that whosoever believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

and who is the Son of God being mentioned here?

John 20:31- "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you might have life through his name."

....that's the difference, we believe that salvation is through Jesus Christ, and for Muslims, it's different. That's why it's so hard to settle this, even if the Vatican already have their say.

That's why to those who are saying "this is a silly argument." blah blah, consider first what these two religions would have to say about God and salvation from their scriptures itself before giving prejudice comments.

 

[Renji]

And for those of you who seemingly "downgrade" other people's belief, especially for my Christian brothers here who seems to hate Muslims, let the Bible itself say this to you:

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 7:1-5 [/FONT]“Judge not, that you be not judged.” For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.” And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?” Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye?” Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye.”

Know your faith (our own faith) before casting out judgment on others' faith. How can you make a righteous judgment if you don't even know your own faith very well? Also, it is wrong to attack the person because of his/her religious convictions nor is making inflammatory comments on a particular religion. Christ did not teach us to condemn the person itself. What Christ do told us is to be careful of other teachings and stand strong in our own faith, and not to "force" other people to believe in you. It is not our problem anymore.

 

[Bowman]

Ok i never said it did, But i am of the understanding that Muslims believe it to be ,in its original Arabic, the literal word of God ,revealed to Muhammad(pbuh) through the angel Gabriel .

Pure myth.

No where in the entire Koran does it ever state that the Koran was divinely inspired.., nor that any angel named Gabriel transmitted any message through someone named 'Muhammad'.

This whole thing is an islamic invention....of which, is even propagated by non-Muslims...

Christians do not beleive in the revelation to Muhammed or that he is a prophet of their God.

Agreed.

 

[Bowman]

I see now, so the appropriate equivalent of that in Christian teachings would be 'angels' (in that sense), and some of them (1/3 according to tradition) disobeyed God (fallen angels),and their leader is Satan. ok, ok, I've been clouded by the previous posts telling that 'jinns' are actually 'demons'.

A simple comparison...

From Revelation:

και εγενετο πολεμος εν τω ουρανω ο μιχαηλ και οι αγγελοι αυτου του πολεμησαι μετα του δρακοντος και ο δρακων επολεμησεν και οι αγγελοι αυτου και ουκ ισχυσεν ουδε τοπος ευρεθη αυτων ετι εν τω ουρανω και εβληθη ο δρακων ο μεγας ο οφις ο αρχαιος ο καλουμενος διαβολος και ο σατανας ο πλανων την οικουμενην ολην εβληθη εις την γην και οι αγγελοι αυτου μετ αυτου εβληθησαν

And war occurred in Heaven, Michael and his angels making war against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels made war, but they did not have strength, nor yet was place found for them in Heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent being called devil, and, Satan; he deceiving the whole habitable world was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Rev 12.7-9)




The Koran:

وأنالمسناالسماءفوجدنهاملئتحرسا شديدا​

وشهبا​

Waanna lamasna alssamaa fawajadnaha muli-at harasan shadeedan washuhuban

72.8 And that we had sought the heaven, so we found her filled (with) strong guards in war, and stars that dart down after a devil.

 

[Bowman]

Maybe that's because the Koran uses sentences in the 'first person' (see some elementary and highschool language books for reference). They need to include the words inside the bracket so that we can know who's the "I" that is speaking there.

We have to remember that the Koran was written almost exclusively in the third-person.

No one ever claimed to be an eye-witness to the Koranic material, according to the Koran, itself....and, as such, explains the need to be written in the third-person, as it is not original and has been merely re-written from previous material.

Further, context...the context leading up to this ayah does not indicate that it refers to 'allah'...

 

[Renji]

We have to remember that the Koran was written almost exclusively in the third-person.

No one ever claimed to be an eye-witness to the Koranic material, according to the Koran, itself....and, as such, explains the need to be written in the third-person, as it is not original and has been merely re-written from previous material.

Further, context...the context leading up to this ayah does not indicate that it refers to 'allah'...

From what I've red, the words written in the Koran claimed that it is directly from God's mouth. Unlike the Bible, the Koran is written by only one man and appears in the Koran like it is from God's mouth himself. It is on the first person, brother.

 

[Bowman]

From what I've red, the words written in the Koran claimed that it is directly from God's mouth.

Please show me one verse from the Koran stating this...

Good luck, Larry...

Unlike the Bible, the Koran is written by only one man and appears in the Koran like it is from God's mouth himself. It is on the first person, brother.

One man?

Do you have a verse for us...?

 

[Renji]

Here is the classical definition for jinn...

جن= “jinn”

“jinn” definition:

Collective noun. Genii, demons, spirits, as apposed to men. The darkness of night; intense darkness; the confusedness of the darkness of night. Concealment. The genii; and sometimes the angels; according to some, the spiritual beings that are concealed from the senses, or that conceal themselves from the senses; all of such beings; thus comprising the angels; all of these being jinn; thus called because they are feared but not seen: or, according to others, certain of the spiritual beings; for the spiritual beings are of three kinds; the good being the angels; and the evil being the devils; and the middle kind, among whom are good and evil, being the jinn; as is shown in the first twelve verses of sura 72; or it here means intelligent invisible bodies, predominantly of the fiery, or of the aerial quality; or a species of souls, or spirits, divested of bodies; or human souls separate from their bodies; or the jinn are the angels exclusively. According to some, in sura 18.50 it is said that Iblees was one of the Jinn; or, as some say, the jinn were a species of the angels, who were the guardians of the earth, and of the gardens of paradise. A state of possession by a devil, or by a jinn; diabolical, or demonical, possession; and hence meaning loss of reason; or madness, insanity, or unsoundness in mind or intellect.

It comes from the root “janna”, which means it veiled, concealed, hid, covered, or protected him; said of the night; to be covered; to cover. The primary signification is the veiling, or concealing, from the sense. Overshadowed; to be dark, wrap, be mad, dark, be hidden to, be excited, He, a man, was, or became, possessed by a devil, or demon; and hence meaning bereft of reason; or mad, insane, unsound in mind or intellect, or wanting therein.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 462 - 464
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 104 - 105
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 29
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, pp. 45 - 46


In the unlikely event that you were to posit a more robust definition, then you no doubt have to agree with what has been presented.

Thus, for the god "allah" to be lord of the jinn, tells us that he is Satan, himself....same as told to us in the Book of Revelation, from where it was copied from.

From this, your stand is that jinns are demons. You even called their allah as Satan himself. But from here, it seems that you are telling me that they are actually 'angels',some are fallen:


[FONT=&quot]

A simple comparison...

From Revelation:

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]και εγενετο πολεμος εν τω ουρανω ο μιχαηλ και οι αγγελοι αυτου του πολεμησαι μετα του δρακοντος και ο δρακων επολεμησεν και οι αγγελοι αυτου και ουκ ισχυσεν ουδε τοπος ευρεθη αυτων ετι εν τω ουρανω και εβληθη ο δρακων ο μεγας ο οφις ο αρχαιος ο καλουμενος διαβολος και ο σατανας ο πλανων την οικουμενην ολην εβληθη εις την γην και οι αγγελοι αυτου μετ αυτου εβληθησαν [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

And war occurred in Heaven, Michael and his angels making war against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels made war, but they did not have strength, nor yet was place found for them in Heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent being called devil, and, Satan; he deceiving the whole habitable world was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Rev 12.7-9)




The Koran:

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]وأنالمسناالسماءفوجدنهاملئتحرسا[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]شديدا[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]وشهبا[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]


Waanna lamasna alssamaa fawajadnaha muli-at harasan shadeedan washuhuban

72.8 And that we had sought the heaven, so we found her filled (with) strong guards in war, and stars that dart down after a devil.

[/FONT]

Which is which bowman, are they 'angels' and some have fallen or are they all demons, which can be viewed on your first post. You are clouding the discussion....

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I see now, so the appropriate equivalent of that in Christian teachings would be 'angels' (in that sense), and some of them (1/3 according to tradition) disobeyed God (fallen angels),and their leader is Satan. ok, ok, I've been clouded by the previous posts telling that 'jinns' are actually 'demons'.

Don't worry Lawrence. At least you're willing to learn and understand. The other person was confused as well.....

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Maybe that's because the Koran uses sentences in the 'first person' (see some elementary and highschool language books for reference). They need to include the words inside the bracket so that we can know who's the "I" that is speaking there.

Right. Muslims, Jews and Christians normally understand this when it comes to their scriptures when they have a familiarity with the language. We find this to be true when reading Hebrew, Arabic or Greek. There are no upper or lowercase lettering but we know when the scripture is talking about "God" or a god. There are no parenthasis but we know who's who. When it is translated into English it is fitting to add the paraenthasis for clarification to the reader even though it isn't there in the original language. Those that argue against this point have no idea of what they're talking about and are wasting the time of others.

 

[Renji]

Please show me one verse from the Koran stating this...

Good luck, Larry...

One man?

Do you have a verse for us...?

Tssk, tssk, that's the problem with you. You are so literalist that you always look for verses. Well let's see what Dardess have to say on that: "First of all, the Koran uses the pronoun I or He when referring to God. " Clearly bowman, it's either on the first or second person. Let's continue: "In Quran, God speaks directly to humankind. THERE IS NO INTERMEDIARY voice in it, NO NARRATOR, NO HUMAN SPEAKER AT ALL-NOT EVEN THE VOICE OF MUHAMMAD. God and God alone is heard, in tones as fresh and vibrant as those in which God first delivered them to Muhammad fourteen hundred years ago." Again bowman, it's first person when the chapters say "I". FYI, Dardess is a Christian who studied Islamic teachings for many years. So there would be no bias in his statement.

And yeah, only one man wrote the Koran. That can actually be traced from highschool history books: "Muhammad wrote the Koran at around 610 to 632 CE. However, it is still not in book form in 632, year of his death"-- text from my highschool history book, written by a G. Zaide, a historian.

Note:I'm not actually saying that I agree on their faith, but I just want to clarify the facts historically and based on the studies of Dardess. I just don't want someone to twist the facts. That would be insulting if someone do the same on the Catholic Church.

Now done. Just use your common sense. Satisfied?

Don't put me to the test, Bowman. I started this thread and I know exactly how it should go and how I should address questions.:sarcastic

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Tssk, tssk, that's the problem with you. You are so literalist that you always look for verses. Well let's see what Dardess have to say on that: "First of all, the Koran uses the pronoun I or He when referring to God. " Clearly bowman, it's either on the first or second person. Let's continue: "In Quran, God speaks directly to humankind. THERE IS NO INTERMEDIARY voice in it, NO NARRATOR, NO HUMAN SPEAKER AT ALL-NOT EVEN THE VOICE OF MUHAMMAD. God and God alone is heard, in tones as fresh and vibrant as those in which God first delivered them to Muhammad fourteen hundred years ago." Again bowman, it's first person when the chapters say "I". FYI, Dardess is a Christian who studied Islamic teachings for many years. So there would be no bias in his statement.

And yeah, only one man wrote the Koran. That can actually be traced from highschool history books: "Muhammad wrote the Koran at around 610 to 632 CE. However, it is still not in book form in 632, year of his death"-- text from my highschool history book, written by a G. Zaide, a historian.

Note:I'm not actually saying that I agree on their faith, but I just want to clarify the facts historically and based on the studies of Dardess. I just don't want someone to twist the facts. That would be insulting if someone do the same on the Catholic Church.

Now done. Just use your common sense. Satisfied?

Don't put me to the test, Bowman. I started this thread and I know exactly how it should go and how I should address questions.:sarcastic

:clap......priceless.

 

[Renji]

:clap......priceless.

Thanks

 

[Bowman]

From this, your stand is that jinns are demons.

This is the stance of the authors of the Koran, brother...

You even called their allah as Satan himself.

This also is the stance of the authors of the Koran, brother...

But from here, it seems that you are telling me that they are actually 'angels',some are fallen:

Demons are fallen angels, brother...same as in the Holy Bible...

Which is which bowman, are they 'angels' and some have fallen or are they all demons, which can be viewed on your first post. You are clouding the discussion....

Apparently your understanding of exactly what demons are needs refreshing, Larry.

You feel that fallen angels are not demons?

Why?

 

[Bowman]

Tssk, tssk, that's the problem with you. You are so literalist that you always look for verses.

A scriptural basis for ones' belief is the very premise, Larry.

You should know this.

Well let's see what Dardess have to say on that: "First of all, the Koran uses the pronoun I or He when referring to God. " Clearly bowman, it's either on the first or second person.

The first-person is used by Jesus on numerous occasions...thus, according to your reasoning, Jesus is God in the Koran.

Let's continue: "In Quran, God speaks directly to humankind. THERE IS NO INTERMEDIARY voice in it, NO NARRATOR, NO HUMAN SPEAKER AT ALL-NOT EVEN THE VOICE OF MUHAMMAD. God and God alone is heard, in tones as fresh and vibrant as those in which God first delivered them to Muhammad fourteen hundred years ago." Again bowman, it's first person when the chapters say "I". FYI, Dardess is a Christian who studied Islamic teachings for many years. So there would be no bias in his statement.

Google a Koranic verse for us which matches what you googled, brother...

Again...good luck...

And yeah, only one man wrote the Koran. That can actually be traced from highschool history books: "Muhammad wrote the Koran at around 610 to 632 CE. However, it is still not in book form in 632, year of his death"-- text from my highschool history book, written by a G. Zaide, a historian.

No one named 'Muhammad' wrote the Koran, according to the Koran, itself.

Note:I'm not actually saying that I agree on their faith, but I just want to clarify the facts historically and based on the studies of Dardess. I just don't want someone to twist the facts. That would be insulting if someone do the same on the Catholic Church.

All you are doing is googling webpaste from the web, brother.

No verses, no examples...nothing.

This is hardly impressive to anyone...and most certainly not to any cognizant person.

Now done. Just use your common sense. Satisfied?

Nope.

Don't put me to the test, Bowman. I started this thread and I know exactly how it should go and how I should address questions.

And how is that, brother...?

 

[Quagmire]

The Koran never states that it is the 'word of God'....

Neither does the Bible. The idea that it does is actually a fairly recent bit of self-serving propaganda.

 

[Bowman]

Neither does the Bible. The idea that it does is actually a fairly recent bit of self-serving propaganda.

Nope.

 

[Renji]

A scriptural basis for ones' belief is the very premise, Larry.

Even in the Christian perspective, one should know the scriptures by its Spirit (thought) and in truth, not by letter.

The first-person is used by Jesus on numerous occasions...thus, according to your reasoning, Jesus is God in the Koran.

Duh? It isn't like that. Refresh your highschool language class and you'll know what I'm talking about. And FYI, YHWH also used 'I' in the old testament.

Google a Koranic verse for us which matches what you googled, brother...

Again...good luck...

Duh uh? I didn't google it! All that I presented you is from dardess' study and my highschool book, the very basic....

Let's reverse it. Give me a verse which states the word 'Bible' in the scriptures. Well, goodluck

No one named 'Muhammad' wrote the Koran, according to the Koran, itself.

Neither do the Bible named Mosses if he is the one who really wrote the first 5 books of the OT. And yet, we believe in it.

All you are doing is googling webpaste from the web, brother.

No verses, no examples...nothing.

This is hardly impressive to anyone...and most certainly not to any cognizant person.

Again, another mistake from you. All the info I give here is from my books.

Do you still need verses when LITERATURE and HISTORY tells you all the answer to your questions? I think not. Even the atheists in this forum accept that. Duh uh, buy some common sense.

Nope.

Then you're embarrassing yourself.

If you can't make a good argument, go somewhere else where the Avatar will not see your twisted opinions....

 

[Quagmire]

Nope.

Brilliant!!!!!

(I can see responding to this is going to require a herculean effort of focus and concentration as well as countless hours of painstaking research...
....wait! I have it!!!!)

Yup.

Bowman: does it ever bother you that people who aren't even members of your religion know more about it's history then you do?

 

[Quagmire]

Why do people think that declaring nonsense then sticking their fingers in their ears and going "LALALALALALALALALALALALA" is actually debating?