Do Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

[J2hapydna]

Interestingly the only links I can find relating to the claims are dodgy posts on internet forums. surly by now, the claims you now import to this forum have been written about by geneticists, as it is a very real and recent discovery. I would be interested to see articles by geneticists who write of the links between Jewish priests and the tribe of Quraysh.

Those types of stuides about cultural identities, usually come out years after the discovery of a SNP and access to them is not always free. It is usually a collaborative work between historians, anthropologists and population geneticists. This SNP is not even a year old, so you may have to wait a year or two before such works will be avaialble on the internet.

In the meantime, you should realize that geneticists are mainly in the business of discovering new SNPs and Haplotypes. They make SNP and Haplotype tests available to those who want to be tested, like the ones offered by FamilytreeDNA that I linked for you. They create charts to help one interpret results of these tests and determine how closely one is related to others and when one shared a recent common ancestor.

The SNP J1c3d was discovered a few months ago. It is now commercially available to the general public and the raw data on who carries it can be viewed here:


Haplogroup J Project (Has many Jewish members):
Family Tree DNA - The Y-Haplogroup J DNA Project

The J1c3 project (Has many Arab members):
Family Tree DNA - J1c3

Members of these projects use this information on SNPs and Haplotypes to calculate who is more closely related to them and when they shared a common ancestor by using those charts and software I provided you. As you can see the Cohanim cluster is in J1c3d. Also you can see the Arabs with names of tribes are also in this subclade.

 

[J2hapydna]

According to Josephus, Onias IV hoped that he and his family would eventually fulfill Isaiah 19:19-24 after he was expelled from the temple in Jerusalem. He established an altar on the border between the Egypts, to fulfill Isaiah 19. This temple was destroyed in the days of jesus. According to Josephus, Onias IV had decided to abandon the minorah (candelabrum) in favor of lamps hanging from strings between poles. He also introduced the minar.

That is quite a cryptic post right there, please take your time and make your posts more readable. for example the line 'between the Egypts' does not make much sense, Onias IV built his temple at Leontopolis, in the central part of the Nile Delta. further more it would be very interesting to see you prove that the fact the Onias temple was built in the form of a tower means he introduced the minaret.

And again, of course it would be interesting to see the peer reviewed articles you can bring to expose the link between Onias IV and Muhammad's tribe, the Quraysh.

Do you agree that Onias IV constructed a temple at Heliopolis to fulfill Isaiah 19 prophesy about an altar between the Egypts and a pillar on the border thereof?

http://books.google.com/books?id=VrHER1jYzhIC&pg=PA466&lpg=PA466&dq=pillar+of+Onias+Temple&source=bl&ots=E1DmGnEcZ4&sig=DZLTI1hJjp3rJtpnpIc_2r2eqGk&hl=en&ei=TJULTefcPIO88gakn5mJDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFQQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=pillar%20of%20Onias%20Temple&f=false



Then, I would think you would agree, he was trying to fulfill this prophecy:
http://bible.cc/isaiah/19-19.htm


Therefore, I would think Onias chose Leontopolis thinking the Nile river divides Egypt into east and west (is between the Egypts) and the Nile delta is on the border of Egypt with the mediterranean.
http://www.ancient-egypt-online.com/ancient-egypt-map.html


My point was that Mecca is also a point on the border of Egypt near the Red Sea and on a line (Tropic of Cancer) that divided Isaiah's Egypt into north and south. Driven out of Egypt, the descendants of Onias would have had the opportunity and incentive to move down to Mecca along with so many other Jewish families trying to escape Roman persecutions in Byzantium and establish their altar in Mecca, in the days of Jesus, where they could minister to Assyrian/ Egyptians (Arabs), trying to fulfill Isaiah 19 all over again. It would be reasonable speculation if all we knew was that such a Jewish family existed a few hundred miles north of Mecca in Heliopolis and became lost to Judaism before Islam rose up in Mecca, sharing similarities with Jewish worship rituals, and it's founder claimed to be prophesised in the Jewish Bible. However, the DNA similarities between the Cohanim and Quraysh makes me think, this is is no longer just a speculation. This is probably what happened.

Obviously, Onias did not invent the minar. However, his temple had a minar, although it did not have many of the other elaborate structures of the temple in Jerusalem. It also did not have candelabrums (minorahs) like Jewish temples. It had lamps hanging on a chain tied between poles. It had a sanctuary that was the same size as the one in jerusalem. It would have had a place for the priest to perform sacrifices. These features are all promient in the Kabaa too. Would you like to speculate why he abandoned the minorah considering Jews have almost made it a symbol of Judaism and it is considered central to the Hanukah miracle?

 

[J2hapydna]

Wrong, I am talking about any university which does not take 'Quranic miracles of science' as academic, or pesudo-history as academic. etc. practically any university outside the Muslim world.

:no:

You are only digging that hole deeper and deeper. The west is more tolerant than you realize my friend.

For one, I am quoting the Bible and not the Quran. So unless you have discovered some Sura in the Quran named Isaiah 19, I have no idea what you are talking about. The miracle I am discussing is in the OT. lol

Secondly, the idea of using Haplotypes and Haplogroups is coming from Western Universities such as Stanford, Harvard and University of Arizona etc. not Al Qaeda or Al Azhar.

Reputable US companies such as IBM and National Geographic are sponsoring a lot of the research in this area. On the commercial side, genetics laboratories such as Familytree DNA of Houston, TX founded by Bennett Greenspan, have top geneticists such as Michael Hammer performing SNP and Haplotype testing to help people find out how they are related to each other and when they shared a common ancestor. They do not sound like names that belong to hardline extremist Muslim fundamentalists to me.

 

[Caladan]

Those types of stuides about cultural identities, usually come out years after the discovery of a SNP and access to them is not always free. It is usually a collaborative work between historians, anthropologists and population geneticists. This SNP is not even a year old, so you may have to wait a year or two before such works will be avaialble on the internet.

In the meantime, you should realize that geneticists are mainly in the business of discovering new SNPs and Haplotypes. They make SNP and Haplotype tests available to those who want to be tested, like the ones offered by FamilytreeDNA that I linked for you. They create charts to help one interpret results of these tests and determine how closely one is related to others and when one shared a recent common ancestor.

In other words, you have no peer reviewed material or articles to support claims that you have read on an internet forum. well, cant say I am surprised, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence, and so far all of our drive by users on the forum who try to dazzle us with amazing truths and miracles linking Muhammad and Islam to the Hebrew bible, linking the Qur'an with modern science, etc. have not being able to provide any academic peer reviewed material to support their claims.

 

[Caladan]

Do you agree that Onias IV constructed a temple at Heliopolis to fulfill Isaiah 19 prophesy about an altar between the Egypts and a pillar on the border thereof?

The Annals of the World - Google Books



Then, I would think you would agree, he was trying to fulfill this prophecy:
Isaiah 19:19 In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border.


Therefore, I would think Onias chose Leontopolis thinking the Nile river divides Egypt into east and west (is between the Egypts) and the Nile delta is on the border of Egypt with the mediterranean.
Ancient Egypt Map | Maps Of Ancient Egypt

This has nothing to do with the tribe of Quraysh and Muhammad. this is Jewish and Ptolemaic history.
BTW this is some of the worst terminology I have ever seen used. in between the 'Egypts'?, I mean really.
if you would like to talk about 'Egypts', it would be much more correct to divide Egypt to Upper and Lower Egypt, or the Nile Valley and the Nile Delta. this is basic 101 ancient Egyptian history.

My point was that Mecca is also a point on the border of Egypt near the Red Sea and on a line (Tropic of Cancer) that divided Isaiah's Egypt into north and south. Driven out of Egypt, the descendants of Onias would have had the opportunity and incentive to move down to Mecca along with so many other Jewish families trying to escape Roman persecutions in Byzantium and establish their altar in Mecca, in the days of Jesus, where they could minister to Assyrian/ Egyptians (Arabs), trying to fulfill Isaiah 19 all over again. It would be reasonable speculation if all we knew was that such a Jewish family existed a few hundred miles north of Mecca in Heliopolis and became lost to Judaism before Islam rose up in Mecca, sharing similarities with Jewish worship rituals, and it's founder claimed to be prophesised in the Jewish Bible. However, the DNA similarities between the Cohanim and Quraysh makes me think, this is is no longer just a speculation. This is probably what happened.

Obviously, Onias did not invent the minar. However, his temple had a minar, although it did not have many of the other elaborate structures of the temple in Jerusalem. It also did not have candelabrums (minorahs) like Jewish temples. It had lamps hanging on a chain tied between poles. It had a sanctuary that was the same size as the one in jerusalem. It would have had a place for the priest to perform sacrifices. These features are all promient in the Kabaa too. Would you like to speculate why he abandoned the minorah considering Jews have almost made it a symbol of Judaism and it is considered central to the Hanukah miracle?

Theories are plentiful, the trick is to admit when we would like to believe something is true and when we have the dignity to accept the coherent bigger historical picture. so far you have provided pieces of information and linked them all with the glue of wishful thinking.

 

[Caladan]

[SIZE=2]Haplogroup J Project (Has many Jewish members):[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][URL="http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-DNA_J/default.aspx?section=yresults"]Family Tree DNA - The Y-Haplogroup J DNA Project[/URL][/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=2]The J1c3 project (Has many Arab members):[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][URL="http://www.familytreedna.com/public/j1el147/default.aspx?section=yresults"]Family Tree DNA - J1c3[/URL][/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=2]Members of these projects use this information on SNPs and Haplotypes to calculate who is more closely related to them and when they shared a common ancestor by using those charts and software I provided you. As you can see the Cohanim cluster is in J1c3d. Also you can see the Arabs with names of tribes are also in this subclade.[/SIZE][/quote]The logic that because many Jews and Arabs share a related genetic baggage (no shock there), it gives us the basis to form solid theories with a clear agenda to empower one's religion while using pieces of historical details and create the picture we would like to present is not a new one. it has been done before, and we will keep seeing it.
some people have even sold bestsellers over this in the last few years...

 

[J2hapydna]

In other words, you have no peer reviewed material or articles to support claims that you have read on an internet forum.

Seems like a case of sour grapes. Have you been searching the internet for information that could prove me wrong, but have not found it? LOL.

If I said that person A is taller than person B. Then, would you need peer reviewed materials or articles supporting my specific claim? I would provide you evidence that A is 6' tall and B is 5'9" from a reliable source. Then, I would provide you peer reviewed articles explaining the concept of inches and feet and how they are used to measure the length of an object. This would be enough for most reasonable people to understand why I stated A is taller than B. This is what I did, provided you raw Haplogroup and Haplotype data and gave you charts to determine when these people shared a common ancestor. it is not the goal of science to go around publishing, case by case, who is taller than whom. There are too many cases to be studied that way. Similarly, geneticists do not go around publishing comprehensive studies on all the cultural groups in the world and how they are related to each other, everytime a new SNP is discovered. Instead, geneticists give us Haplogroup and Haplotype results and provide us charts to figure out how we are related. I have provided you Haplogroup and Haplotype data on Arabs and Jews from the genetics lab. FamilytreeDNA in Houston TX. This lab. is a reputable company that does all the work for National Geograhpic's National Genographic Project. It's chief geneticist is Prof. Michael Hammer and it's founder is Bennett Greenspan. The SNPs and Halplotypes from this lab are suggesting these Jews and Arabs share a recent common ancestor less than 3,000 years ago. If you insist on waiting for comprehensive studies on how the Quraysh and Cohanim are related in light of a SNP that was discovered less than a year ago, that is your business too. As I have said before, you will probably have to wait a few years. The rest of us cannot live life for a scientist to create a peer reviewed articles on whether one is taller or shorter than another, everytime we meet someone.



BTW, I am a member of both the National Geographic Genographic Project and the FamilytreeDNA Haplogroup J project. I have provided you links to help you understand how Haplogroup SNPs and STR Haplotypes are used by geneticists to determine whether they are more closely related to someone than someone else and when they shared a common ancestor.

 

[J2hapydna]

This has nothing to do with the tribe of Quraysh and Muhammad. this is Jewish and Ptolemaic history.
BTW this is some of the worst terminology I have ever seen used. in between the 'Egypts'?, I mean really.
if you would like to talk about 'Egypts', it would be much more correct to divide Egypt to Upper and Lower Egypt, or the Nile Valley and the Nile Delta. this is basic 101 ancient Egyptian history.


Theories are plentiful, the trick is to admit when we would like to believe something is true and when we have the dignity to accept the coherent bigger historical picture. so far you have provided pieces of information and linked them all with the glue of wishful thinking.

Sure, there is the theory of evolution, then there is the wishful thinking of intelligent design. one is imperfect, supported with evidence but has missing links, the other is supported by nothing. The genetic evidence, similarities in religious rituals, existence of a disgruntled Cohen family, disappearing a few hundred miles north of Mecca, opportunity and incentive ... As imperfect as it is, it is a theory not intelligent design. I am not insisting you have to believe Muhammad is a prophet. I am just sharing how it is quite reasonable to think he was 'probably' not definately, the descendant of this family.

 

[Caladan]

Seems like a case of sour grapes. Have you been searching the internet for information that could prove me wrong, but have not found it? LOL.

If I said that person A is taller than person B. Then, would you need peer reviewed materials or articles supporting my claim? I would provide you evidence that A is 6' tall and B is 5'9" from a reliable source. Then, I would provide you peer reviewed articles explaining the concept of inches and feet and how they are used to measure the length of an object. This would be enough for most reasonable people to understand why I stated A is taller than B. it is not the goal of science to go around publishing, case by case, who is taller than whom. There are too many cases to be studied that way. Similarly, geneticists do not go around publishing comprehensive studies on cultural groups, everytime a new SNP is discovered. Instead, geneticists give us Haplogroup and Haplotype results and provide us charts to figure out how we are related. I have provided you Haplogroup and Haplotype data on Arabs and Jews from the genetics lab. FamilytreeDNA in Houston TX. This lab. is a reputable company that does all the work for National Geograhpic's National Genographic Project. It's chief geneticist is Prof. Michael Hammer and it's founder is Bennett Greenspan. The SNPs and Halplotypes from this lab are suggesting these Jews and Arabs share a recent common ancestor less than 3,000 years ago. If you insist on waiting for comprehensive studies on how the Quraysh and Cohanim are related in light of a SNP that was discovered less than a year ago, that is your business too. As I have said before, you will probably have to wait a few years.

Claiming that one person is taller than another is quite different than claiming that historical figures in Jewish history centuries before of Muhammad are related to him in such a way that legitimizes the Muslim prophet and Islam in the eyes of Non-Muslims. remember Christians have been doing the same with Jesus on a legendary scale for centuries, linking him to Israelite royalty. not only you have used a general genetic information, that Jews and Arabs are genetically linked, information which is widely known, but you have projected on specific figures in history and made an enigmatic link which stretches some good amount of centuries, bringing in bits and pieces of vague information, from minarets, to lamps, to geography. if you believe that this is enough proof as measuring the height difference between two people, this is a poor example of standard of faith among some Muslims. further more after almost a year, I would expect to find some studies, at least biased articles from Islamic sources on the subject.

BTW, I am a member of both the National Geographic Genographic Project and the FamilytreeDNA Haplogroup J project. I have provided you links to help you understand how Haplogroup SNPs and STR Haplotypes are used by geneticists to determine whether they are more closely related to someone than someone else and when they shared a common ancestor.

Geneticists have linked the genetic baggage of the Cohanim to various people in the middle east, from the Kurds, to the Bedouins in Israel, to Armenians, to Arabs in Yemen, Iraq, and Oman. if you want to cherry pick out of various mid eastern populations the genetic commonality between Jews and Arabs or other mid eastern populations and give it spiritual dimensions by all means, if it makes your faith in Islam stronger to prove that Islam has enigmatic connection to the Jewish people and tradition by all means. I find it more simple to focus on that obvious similarities, connection, and relations, without trying to over legitimize any faith in the eyes of others. as far as I'm concerned Judaism has done well to establish itself as an influential religion, often I'm puzzled that many Muslims don't have the same sense of confidence about Islam.

 

[J2hapydna]

BTW this is some of the worst terminology I have ever seen used. in between the 'Egypts'?, I mean really. if you would like to talk about 'Egypts', it would be much more correct to divide Egypt to Upper and Lower Egypt, or the Nile Valley and the Nile Delta. this is basic 101 ancient Egyptian history.

Considering, some Jews feel God gave the descendants of Abraham the land between the Nile and Euphrates, is it possible Onias intially thought of two Egypts, one east of the nile and another west? I do not know. However, I do agree, it would be better to think of the two Egypts as upper and lower Egypt. This is why I feel Mecca is a better choice than Heliopolis. Mecca is both on the line that divides upper and lower Egypt and on the border of Egypt. Once again, I am not insisting that it has to be Mecca. I am just saying it could also be Mecca.

 

[J2hapydna]

I find it more simple to focus on that obvious similarities, connection, and relations, without trying to over legitimize any faith in the eyes of others. as far as I'm concerned Judaism has done well to establish itself as an influential religion, often I'm puzzled that many Muslims don't have the same sense of confidence about Islam.

Hello Caladan,

Sorry for the delay. I was gone on a two week skiing vacation over the Christimas holidays and just returned.

I have said nothing about which religion becomes more or less legitimate, by this research. I am not sure why you would bring this up? Personally, my confidence in science exceeds my belief in any religion, Judaism, Christianity, Islam or any other. For example, if someone was to tell me that mankind was created 6,000 years ago because some religious scholar says so, but scientists tell me we share a common ancestor that lived 60,000 years ago, I will accept what the scientists tell me. science does not discriminate on the basis of religion. This biological evidence is not being uncovered by Al Qaeda or Al Azhar University's Muslim scholars. Familytree DNA labs in Texas are run by a Jewish man, Bennett Greenspan. The chief geneticist at FamilytreeDNA, Prof. Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona is a Cohen Jew. Haplogroup and haplotypes are what they are. They have been discovered by scientists, indepenedent of religions.

If it was shown by geneticists that Muhammad and his tribe mostly belonged to some African Haplogroup, like Falasha Jews (as was suggested by western historians) while the Jews were closely related to some European haplogroup, I am sure western Christians would be talking about it. If Jews were some distinct group different from both Arabs and Europeans, I am sure you would be talking about it. However, as it turns out, Cohanim and Quraysh seem to belong to haplogroup J1c3d and share a similar Haplotype, so here I am talking about it. Whether this fact legitimizes or deligitimizes any religion is incidental.

By the way, Kurds and Armenians share Y haplogroup J2 with lay Jews. However, Cohanim mostly belong to haplogroup J1c3d, not J2. Secondly, there are some Ash J2 Cohens, but there are very few Separdi J2 Cohens. These two facts (few sep cohens belonging to J2 and the fact that more cohens belong to hap J1c3d than J2), make it unlikely that J2 was the signature of Israelites. Therefore, most geneticists are of the opinion that the J2 Kurds and Armenians share a common ancestor with non Israelite J2 converts to Judaism. On the other hand since J1c3d is abundant in both Ash and Sephardi Cohen populations and both Sep and Ash cohens share a common J1c3d ancestor that lived less than 3,800 years ago, geneticists consider J1c3d to be the most likely Israelite marker.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

This is a tough question to answer, and it really all depends on how you look at it. Theologically, no, Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God. Even though both religions are Abrahamic, there are major differences. The Trinity being the most obvious one, as Islam is strictly unitarian monotheistic. However, if you look at it as "god-language", where "god" is seen as ultimate reality, and each religion is just seeing that reality in a different way, then yes, not only do Christians and Muslims worship the same god, but so do Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Pagans, and any others. It's all a matter of perspective.

 

[kai]

This is a tough question to answer, and it really all depends on how you look at it. Theologically, no, Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God. Even though both religions are Abrahamic, there are major differences. The Trinity being the most obvious one, as Islam is strictly unitarian monotheistic. However, if you look at it as "god-language", where "god" is seen as ultimate reality, and each religion is just seeing that reality in a different way, then yes, not only do Christians and Muslims worship the same god, but so do Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Pagans, and any others. It's all a matter of perspective.

isn't the perspective defined by revelation in each case?

 

[dallas1125]

This is a tough question to answer, and it really all depends on how you look at it. Theologically, no, Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God. Even though both religions are Abrahamic, there are major differences.

This reminds me of the: Do mormons worship a different Jesus?

The theological differences dont affect it in my opinion. The theologies came from the same source, so it is the same god in my opinion but a different view on it.

 

[kai]

This reminds me of the: Do mormons worship a different Jesus?

The theological differences dont affect it in my opinion. The theologies came from the same source, so it is the same god in my opinion but a different view on it.

accept surely when your perception or view or theological difference comes directly from your god by revelation.

 

[paolops181]

There is one problem. Christians worship Jesus of Nazareth as God. Muslims view Jesus as a mortal man, flesh and blood, and as in Judaism the idolization of a mortal man might be the single most abominable act.

Not all christians believe that Jesus is God in nature. There are christians that believe in one individual God who is the Father alone. We worship Christ because God commands us so "Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." -Phil.2:9-11
Pls have your research.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

This is a tough question to answer, and it really all depends on how you look at it. Theologically, no, Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God. Even though both religions are Abrahamic, there are major differences. The Trinity being the most obvious one, as Islam is strictly unitarian monotheistic. However, if you look at it as "god-language", where "god" is seen as ultimate reality, and each religion is just seeing that reality in a different way, then yes, not only do Christians and Muslims worship the same god, but so do Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Pagans, and any others. It's all a matter of perspective.

I think Muslims do worship the same god as Jews, but not Christians. Because Christians view god entirely differently then Jews and Muslims do. This is just my personal observation. I think though that Allah had to be reinvented from how the Meccans used to worship him for this to take place. The Meccans used to worship Allah as the chief deity on a pantheon. The Quran even mentions this several times: far be Allah above the associates they ascribe to him.

 

[J2hapydna]

I think Muslims do worship the same god as Jews, but not Christians. Because Christians view god entirely differently then Jews and Muslims do. This is just my personal observation. I think though that Allah had to be reinvented from how the Meccans used to worship him for this to take place. The Meccans used to worship Allah as the chief deity on a pantheon. The Quran even mentions this several times: far be Allah above the associates they ascribe to him.

It is my understanding that in pre Islamic Arabia, the pagan Arabs, who were a majority in the days of Muhammd worshipped a pantheon, with Allah as it's chief, invisible deity, as you have stated. However, the Hanif Arabs of Mecca (a minority) worshipped only Allah and regarded kabaa as the sacred house built by Abraham.

 

[dallas1125]

accept surely when your perception or view or theological difference comes directly from your god by revelation.

Sorry, I didnt catch your meaning..

 

[kai]

Sorry, I didnt catch your meaning..

well God tells people how he should be worshipped. the Quran for example is the unalterable word of God . it lays out quite clearly what God wants and needs from us.


The Torah does the same.


A persons perception of his God is moulded by the religious documents he refers to ----no