Do Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

[Tarheeler]

I've already offeres Pelagius and the Cathars as evidence - if you take issue with the evidence i've offered please point up what it is.

Not to jump into the middle of this, but weren't the Cathars annihilated by the Catholic Church for their religious views?

 

[Caladan]

Not to jump into the middle of this, but weren't the Cathars annihilated by the Catholic Church for their religious views?

touché. and that is the point, the main Christianity 'taking care' of those who deviate from its basic tenants.

 

[sandandfoam]

You ignore the main issue. which is that the core body of Christianity and Christians through out history have considered Jesus God. this is a fact, repeatedly repeating itself through out history. fringe groups are the exception of the rule.
for any individuals you present here, I can bring huge religious institutions, mega churches, conquests around the world supported or inspired by the central religious authorities, inquisitions in which the Christian systems have forced people to profess that Jesus is their god.


The Carmina Gadelica appeared in the 19th century, you'll be surprised how much of the background for today's New Age has appeared during that century,

Well then
I don't accept that the powerful get to define Christianity because of their power.
The Cathars (for example) regarded themselves as good Christians. My Christianity is rooted in large part in the views of those who considered themselves Christians and who were considered as heretics by others (Pelagius, Spong). I don't accept that the abscence of power on either their or my part reduces my or their Christianity.
For my part as a Christian - the answer to the op from my perspective is clear.
If you wish to demote me from my Christianity then I contest your right to do so or the view that your opinion regarding my bona fides as a Christian is superior to my own.

To my mind Christianity lies in following Jesus, trying to be like him. It means Tolstoy, Spong, Newell, Pelagius and others.
It means God is the Ground of All Being and a Mystery.

Listening to the institutional churches voice echoing across history all we can know is what the big boys with the sticks said. Tolstoy argues that they weren't Christians at all (he presents a good argument in my view).
There is another quieter voice alongside it to which I argue it is equally legitimate to attend.

 

[sandandfoam]

Not to jump into the middle of this, but weren't the Cathars annihilated by the Catholic Church for their religious views?

Indeed they were - but does burning 'Good Christians' mark 'real' Christianity?
I argue that those who professed themselves 'Good Christians' were Christians.

 

[Caladan]

Well then
I don't accept that the powerful get to define Christianity because of their power.
The Cathars (for example) regarded themselves as good Christians. My Christianity is rooted in large part in the views of those who considered themselves Christians and who were considered as heretics by others (Pelagius, Spong). I don't accept that the abscence of power on either their or my part reduces my or their Christianity.
For my part as a Christian - the answer to the op from my perspective is clear.
If you wish to demote me from my Christianity then I contest your right to do so or the view that your opinion regarding my bona fides as a Christian is superior to my own.

To my mind Christianity lies in following Jesus, trying to be like him. It means Tolstoy, Spong, Newell, Pelagius and others.
It means God is the Ground of All Being and a Mystery.

Listening to the institutional churches voice echoing across history all we can know is what the big boys with the sticks said. Tolstoy argues that they weren't Christians at all (he presents a good argument in my view).
There is another quieter voice alongside it to which I argue it is equally legitimate to attend.

I think that this kind of Christianity might have been practiced on rare occasions, and the people who practiced it have actually went well beyond the tenants and boundaries of Christianity, for the most part the 'Christianity' you are talking about here, has practically been non existent through out history.

 

[sandandfoam]

I think that this kind of Christianity might have been practiced on rare occasions, and the people who practiced it have actually went well beyond the tenants and boundaries of Christianity, for the most part the 'Christianity' you are talking about here, has practically been non existent through out history.

I diasagree.
The Cathars warranted a Crusade, the Celtic churches that synod - Whitby?
The Carmina Gadelica draws on an ancient tradition.
There is a long history of such thought in Celtic Christianity at least (as per Newell)

Now you keep saying my version is wrong. (And I have to say I'm enjoying it)
But you're not offering anything constructive in return. If you don't mind my saying your view of Christianity is rather narrow and rigid - isn't the world always a bit messier and ambiguous than the black and white version you're trying to push here?

edit - forgot to offer Tolstoy as more evidence of the Christianity I'm arguing for

 

[Tarheeler]

Indeed they were - but does burning 'Good Christians' mark 'real' Christianity?
I argue that those who professed themselves 'Good Christians' were Christians.

I can understand that, but.....

If your trying to define a religion, you have to look at the majority of its adherents.
Just as the Messianic Jews identify themselves as Jews, you can't argue that their beliefs are a defining doctrine of Judaism.

The same goes for Christianity. While those who don't identify Jesus as God can consider themselves Christian, their belief is not part of mainstream Christianity. Who is a "good Christian" is irrelevant; one of the defining ideals of the religion is the deification of Jesus.

 

[Caladan]

Now you keep saying my version is wrong. (And I have to say I'm enjoying it)
But you're not offering anything constructive in return. If you don't mind my saying your view of Christianity is rather narrow and rigid - isn't the world always a bit messier and ambiguous than the black and white version you're trying to push here?

Sometimes things are as they are. should we make a list of the Christians throughout history who have practiced 'your version', and list those who practiced Christianity the major religion, the one asked about in the OP.
btw, I haven't said anything about 'wrong' or 'right' versions. I am talking about the basics of Christianity, and what defines this religion, its single most important tenant being that Jesus is the God of the Christians, and that is the one thing almost all Christians on this forum confess to, perhaps with the exception of yourself.

 

[sandandfoam]

I can understand that, but.....

If your trying to define a religion, you have to look at the majority of its adherents.
Just as the Messianic Jews identify themselves as Jews, you can't argue that their beliefs are a defining doctrine of Judaism.

The same goes for Christianity. While those who don't identify Jesus as God can consider themselves Christian, their belief is not part of mainstream Christianity. Who is a "good Christian" is irrelevant; one of the defining ideals of the religion is the deification of Jesus.

So you're saying that only those who fit into what you regards as Christianity are Christians?
Or is it that numbers are what define Christianity - only the version with the most adherents is Christian.
Let's for a moment accept it is so.
How do we define those who self-identify and collectively-identify as Christians and yet fall outside the above definitions?

 

[sandandfoam]

its single most important tenant being that Jesus is the God of the Christians

Can you back this up?

 

[Caladan]

Can you back this up?

Surly you jest. as a Christian, have you ever read the Christian scriptures?

 

[Tarheeler]

So you're saying that only those who fit into what you regards as Christianity are Christians?
Or is it that numbers are what define Christianity - only the version with the most adherents is Christian.
Let's for a moment accept it is so.
How do we define those who self-identify and collectively-identify as Christians and yet fall outside the above definitions?

Not at all what i said.

 

[sandandfoam]

Surly you jest. as a Christian, have you ever read the Christian scriptures?

Of course I have.
My questions stands - you asserted that belief in Jesus as God is the most important tenent of Christianity.
I don't accept it is so (having previously given a source for my view i.e. Pelagius) and have asked for evidence supporting your assertion.
Quoting scripture in this context is btw not enough as the Christianity of many does not rest solely on scripture (e.g. all the millions of Anglicans)

 

[sandandfoam]

Not at all what i said.

Excuse my mistake so.
Perhaps you would re state your point?

 

[Caladan]

Of course I have.
My questions stands - you asserted that belief in Jesus as God is the most important tenent of Christianity.
I don't accept it is so (having previously given a source for my view i.e. Pelagius) and have asked for evidence supporting your assertion.
Quoting scripture in this context is btw not enough as the Christianity of many does not rest solely on scripture (e.g. all the millions of Anglicans)

In other words, you and other groups of people bend the rules to fit your own 'dogma'. its cool many people do this, however that is not the main religion practiced throughout history, and not the one relevant to the OP.
the OP is very simple, it asks if Christianity and Islam share the same God, a minority of Christians may profess that Jesus is not their God, however the fact that the majority of Christians around the world DO makes it a great source of bitterness and tensions through out history, and even in our modern times, the majority of Muslims and Christians fiercely debate about this issue.

 

[Renji]

At stephen: could you atleast give the basic teachings of the particular sect you're into (about God or Christ) so we can compare it to the RC's and Islam's teachings? The question on the OP would be blurred if someone would just give perceptual (that's what it seems to me) understanding on the doctrines of christianism. I'm looking here for the actual teaching or basic tenets of faith that can suggest if we really worship the same God.

 

[sandandfoam]

In other words, you and other groups of people bend the rules to fit your own 'dogma'.

My view is that everyone does this all the time regarding everything.
I must do some work!
It's been fun

 

[Caladan]

My view is that everyone does this all the time regarding everything.
I must do some work!
It's been fun

Till next time
I'm glade you are always up for the challenge

 

[sandandfoam]

At stephen: could you atleast give the basic teachings of the particular sect you're into (about God or Christ) so we can compare it to the RC's and Islam's teachings? The question on the OP would be blurred if someone would just give perceptual (that's what it seems to me) understanding on the doctrines of christianism.

Sorry Lawrence, I'm just leaving.
If you Google Spong or Newell you'll see what I'm about

 

[Badran]

When you said that there are some christians who worship the same God as the Muslims have, are you referring to a particular sect or "christians" individually? Also, can you give significant differences and/or similarities to the God we worship? For example, what do Muslims believe about God?

I wasn't having any particular sect in mind, and i wasn't meaning also that only individual christians do. I was meaning in general, wether its individual and/or sects that have that view of god, as i think there is both. At least according to my experience, it seems that there are christians who view god the same way we muslims do, and i even met christians who have a complicated view of the trinity, which (while not being like Islam's view entirly), but still doesn't seem to contradict the idea of one God, that has no sons etc....

The similarities are a lot, i think in the most parts there are similarities. The differences would be the obvious ones like have been said the straight forward idea that jesus is god, or the son of the god. Both would contradict with the muslim view. While of course putting in mind that this doesn't have to include all christians idea or outlook on this, as like i said i have heard explanations for it which while not being similar to Islam in all aspects (at least not on how we view Jesus), but it doesn't seem to contradict any of the main attributes of god in our view.