Do innocent sinful people go to hell?

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Yes, it is very easy but I want to point out that when I do post examples from the Bible that show what you asked I bet you will not change your mind. Anyway:

New Living Translation
For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God's glorious standard.

New International Version
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

And specifically as to your claim about innocent sinners:

English Standard Version
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

New International Version
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

http://biblehub.com/romans/6-23.htm

So we can easily see that we all sin and the wages of sin is death. So every single one of us is rightfully condemned to Hell, but God paid the price to pardon us if we will but admit the truth and accept his reprieve.

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It does not matter what you think God is in a debate. In fact the Bible suggests that until you are born again you are utterly cut off from God and are at enmity to him and so would have no idea what he is or is not. That is not my conclusion it is the conclusion of the apostles and the census of scholars for over 2000 years. Try thinking that Jupiter does not exist or that it is made out of cotton candy and see if it goes away or becomes edible. It only matters what you can show is probably true based on evidence, revelation, and philosophy. If you believe God is X, and I believe God is Y, then only by appeal to the things I mentioned can it be seen who is right. So far I am the only one posting evidence, revelation, and philosophy. Your only posting metaphysical speculation.

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Boy did you step in it here. It would be hard to think of anything more harmful to humans. In the US the 4% of us that are gay are responsible for over 60% of new aids cases according to the CDC. I debate homosexuality quite a bit so I have an avalanche of data to give you if you want to push the point concerning homosexual acts. So your example is one of the best to prove my point.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

It does not matter if every single person on Earth believes what you do (and actually very few do agree with you among those who claim to know YAWEAH personally) it would not change what God actually is. That is also a fallacy called the argument from popularity, nothing is true because it is popular. Not that the majority of people agree with you, but it would not matter if they did.

Your missing half the picture, God knows we cannot perfectly obey the law so he paid the entire cost to redeem those who are condemned by the law. All you have to do is accept the fat you sin and the fact God died to redeem sinners. How is God evil when all you have to do is accept what he offers free of charge. Your preference is creeping into your argumentation. Why are you denying the majority of what God said and did?



1. For pity sake the prisons are full of people who claim to be innocent almost without exception. If those of us that are the most guilty almost all claim they are innocent then it is meaningless for you to claim to be without sin. The Bible pointed out the absurdity of anyone who claims to be without moral fault thousands of years ago.

New Living Translation
If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth.

However lets look at this logically.

If we ever tell a lie we are liars, if we ever steal anything we are thieves, if we look at a women we are not married to with lust we are guilty of lust, if we eat or drink too much we are gluttons, if we merely wish to have something our fellow man does we are guilty of being covetous, if we hate the bible says we are guilty of murder, or if we fail to love God with all our hearts we have broken 1 of the ten commandments, etc.... I would bet you have failed to keep all of just the ten commandments much less all the moral commands God has given us.

Now you can say you do not like these rules, that you do not like the God that gave us these rules, or you can deny the existence of God and his rules all together. The one thing you cannot possibly say and be correct, is that you have no utterly failed to follow all of God's commands. So please do not make such an absurd and arrogant claim to being morally without fault.

2. As for your request concerning God sending you the Holy Sprit. It is no wander he did not respond because God is not a Genie from a bottle which must grant you anything you wish. God holds all sovereignty over you and the rest of creation. He dictates to us not the other way around. God Gave us a door through which we may access him, if you instead try and force your way to God by another method you will keep failing. Let me give you a verse so you can look this up if you want.

New International Version
"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

BTW the "door" mentioned above is Christ. You cannot get to God except through Christ who is our mediator with God.

But how is it you enter through that door? Fortunately the Bible makes that clear as well.

New International Version
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Now, whatever you think it means to diligently seek him, what it most certainly is not is an unbelieving person who merely demands that God grant him what he asks. I can describe what it was I did when I first encountered God if your interested but it does not seem you wish to humble yourself and do what God commands. It seems more like that the biblical God requires things of you that you do not like and so you do not like him so you invent a God in your own image and waste your time musing what your invented God with no reason to think he exists should or should not do. If you will not obey the Bible (even just the easy and best parts concerning salvation) then I do not see how you will ever come to know God, at least no way that I can help you with, but I am still willing to try as I have time to do so.

You say there is so much evidence for this Biblical God, but then again, people who have different views of God and the afterlife would also claim to have much evidence on their side. So that is why I remain undecided. Both sides debate it out and one side would say that the evidence on the other side isn't evidence at all. I don't see evidence on either side. Rather, a philosophical debate and nothing more.

But I personally don't see how it is love at all for a God to expect perfection from me and then to toss me away into hell with no mercy since I did not meet his personal demands and expectations. Why do you think that is love? Why do you think that a loving God would be someone who would have enmity and hate towards someone like me? I thought he hates the sin and not the sinner.

How I am living my life is committing no sins in my eyes. An all loving God would not even see my way of life as a sin to begin with. But according to this Biblical God, it is all the sin in the world that is deserving of His hate and condemnation to hell. Why don't you think that is a cruel merciless master? It's inconceivable to me to see how anyone would think that is love. Unless this God has some sort of sick twisted definition of love.

If there are any slight sins and imperfections in a human being, then why don't you agree that a loving God would be someone who wouldn't demand perfection and would accept the person into His kingdom as long as they aren't harmful towards others and making the lives of others miserable? If they were like that though, then I personally would see a loving God giving them a lesser punishment than eternal hell until they change their ways.

Now I have met plenty of loving people in my life and they would never punish me for my way of living even if they were to somehow take on the role of being God in which they themselves would be perfect and sinless. I am not harming anyone or making anyone's lives miserable, so they would be perfectly fine and accepting of my way of living. Therefore, that is what makes these people all loving. So why should God be any different? Imagine if these people instead tortured and punished me for all of eternity, then I think it would only take a crazy person to somehow think that those people loved me.

Lastly, I will continue my way of life of enjoying my hobbies and working on my computer. In case this God exists and in case my way of life really is sinful that would condemn me to hell, then I will genuinely open my heart up to Jesus, confess, and repent the last minute before I die whether it be from a heart attack, a stroke, or some other natural cause.

I personally see my way of life as being perfectly acceptable to an all loving and all just God. So that is why I am going to continue on living that way of life until I die. However, I have genuinely opened myself up to Jesus right now in my heart. I have said in my heart to allow my sins to be washed away the moment before I die in case my way of life is actually sinful. That way, my sins would be repented and taken away right before I die which would allow me access to heaven.

But I personally think the Bible is completely wrong about my way of life being sinful since I don't think the evidence you have presented is evidence at all. However, I have actually not hardened my heart against this Biblical God in case He is real. Therefore, I will remain open to the possibility of Him being real while I continue to live my way of life with this open mindset.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Was Jesus a true teacher or a false teacher ?________
Since Jesus went to biblical hell the day he died - Acts of the Apostles 2:27 - but did Not remain in biblical hell, then if the Bible's hell was a permanent place, then Jesus would still be in hell.

He was and still is a true teacher, in the Islamic views at least. There is a misunderstanding of the eternity of Hell; it is eternal in existence, but not always eternally sentenced to everyone. Some do go eternally, and some others don't. Also, Jesus, if he went to Hell, he did not as a punishment or a sentence. That's a different story.

As teacher Jesus taught 'sleep in death' as do the old Hebrew Scriptures:
- John 11:12-14; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Even the word cemetery means: sleeping place.

I see. In Islam, sleeping is called the small death as it is believed the soul goes up to the heavens then comes back to the body when we wake up.

Jesus also gave a Revelation picture to John showing everyone in biblical hell will be ' delivered up ' ( resurrected ) out of hell before emptied-out hell is cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell - Revelation 20:13-14

To me, as the Garden of Eden was a beautiful paradisical garden, under Christ's coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth, then the whole Earth will become a beautiful paradise home for the living and the physically resurrected dead who are Not called to heaven. - John 3:13; Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:10-11,29; Revelation 22:2

That's some informative information about your beliefs. Thank you for sharing. Not sure, but it is possible Islam shares it or some of it too. At least his return and his just rule are indeed shared.

 

[1robin]

You say there is so much evidence for this Biblical God, but then again, people who have different views of God and the afterlife would also claim to have much evidence on their side. So that is why I remain undecided. Both sides debate it out and one side would say that the evidence on the other side isn't evidence at all. I don't see evidence on either side. Rather, a philosophical debate and nothing more.

In that case then I and the other person you speak of should see who is right by debate. pointing out that people may disagree is not an argument.

But I personally don't see how it is love at all for a God to expect perfection from me and then to toss me away into hell with no mercy since I did not meet his personal demands and expectations. Why do you think that is love? Why do you think that a loving God would be someone who would have enmity and hate towards someone like me? I thought he hates the sin and not the sinner.

Careful, your bias is showing. You keep appealing to only half of what God has done, no matter how many times I explain that he paid the entire cost to redeem us sinners, all we have to do is admit the truth and accept Christ as savior. I merely had to admit I have sinned and accept Christ as my redeemer, sure does not sound too cruel to me.

How I am living my life is committing no sins in my eyes. An all loving God would not even see my way of life as a sin to begin with. But according to this Biblical God, it is all the sin in the world that is deserving of His hate and condemnation to hell. Why don't you think that is a cruel merciless master? It's inconceivable to me to see how anyone would think that is love. Unless this God has some sort of sick twisted definition of love.

You seem to have misguided idea that what you think will matter in the end. God holds ultimate sovereignty over everything including you. If you go before after death and tell him that the price he paid to redeem you was something you felt was meaningless because you think you lived a perfect life, he will not accept that answer. So what you like is meaningless, the only issue is what is true.

If there are any slight sins and imperfections in a human being, then why don't you agree that a loving God would be someone who wouldn't demand perfection and would accept the person into His kingdom as long as they aren't harmful towards others and making the lives of others miserable? If they were like that though, then I personally would see a loving God giving them a lesser punishment than eternal hell until they change their ways.

Slight sins, for the love...... We kill our children in the womb on an industrial scale, we have created the weapons to annihilate all human life and the moral insanity to have almost used them several times, we have demanded that the 4% of us that are gay have the right to cause 60% of new aids cases, and in 5000 years we have had 300 without a major war, etc.....x a trillions similar problems. If that is only slight sins then what is it you think are major ones? We all hate, lust, lie and steal, etc..... or are you the only exception to have ever lived. BTW if you want to keep mentioning Hell then what I understand Hell to be is the absence of God and all that he comes with. In other words God gives you exactly what you chose, you did not want him and so that is what you get. Whatever form Hell is at the moment I do not know but I believe it is eventually annihilation.

Now I have met plenty of loving people in my life and they would never punish me for my way of living even if they were to somehow take on the role of being God in which they themselves would be perfect and sinless. I am not harming anyone or making anyone's lives miserable, so they would be perfectly fine and accepting of my way of living. Therefore, that is what makes these people all loving. So why should God be any different? Imagine if these people instead tortured and punished me for all of eternity, then I think it would only take a crazy person to somehow think that those people loved me.

It does not matter what you prefer or what anyone or everyone prefer. You need to get away from the idea that the only things God can do are things he must ask our permission for before hand. Now if you instead want to argue against God using evidence and leave God as he is instead or projecting your wishful thinking onto reality and resenting that reality does not adjust accordingly. I can argue against what you like or not, I argue for what is true.

Lastly, I will continue my way of life of enjoying my hobbies and working on my computer. In case this God exists and in case my way of life really is sinful that would condemn me to hell, then I will genuinely open my heart up to Jesus, confess, and repent the last minute before I die whether it be from a heart attack, a stroke, or some other natural cause.

That is about the worst conclusion or plan I have ever heard. Besides the obvious fact that seldom to we know the moment we are going to die with enough certainty to make plans like yours. It also requires God to respond to our pleas for salvation. We need to seek him diligently, to be clear headed enough to concentrate on our investigations into the Gospels, and we need to learn sincerity. That takes little effort but it does take a bit of time. I am sure a few people converted on their death bed, but I imagine not enough do to make that something that can be planned on. Now is the time not when your distracted by the pain of cancer, fighting to breathe with pneumonia, or your fixated on the train heading at you.

I personally see my way of life as being perfectly acceptable to an all loving and all just God. So that is why I am going to continue on living that way of life until I die. However, I have genuinely opened myself up to Jesus right now in my heart. I have said in my heart to allow my sins to be washed away the moment before I die in case my way of life is actually sinful. That way, my sins would be repented and taken away right before I die which would allow me access to heaven.

Again what you think about your life is irrelevant, it will only be what God thinks about your way of life that will matter. You have not won the debate with me, and you cannot win any debate with him.

But I personally think the Bible is completely wrong about my way of life being sinful since I don't think the evidence you have presented is evidence at all. However, I have actually not hardened my heart against this Biblical God in case He is real. Therefore, I will remain open to the possibility of Him being real while I continue to live my way of life with this open mindset.

So far your last paragraph here is the only argument you have made, it is no more correct than all your previous arguments but at least it concerns the correct subject. It does not matter what you think about God's claims, it does matter whether those claims are more likely given the evidence than their negation based on the same. This is the debate we should be having so if you want to continue this discussion, post the best evidence you have that shows the bible is wrong about your sinfulness and God's existence and forget the rest.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

In that case then I and the other person you speak of should see who is right by debate. pointing out that people may disagree is not an argument.

Careful, your bias is showing. You keep appealing to only half of what God has done, no matter how many times I explain that he paid the entire cost to redeem us sinners, all we have to do is admit the truth and accept Christ as savior. I merely had to admit I have sinned and accept Christ as my redeemer, sure does not sound too cruel to me.

You seem to have misguided idea that what you think will matter in the end. God holds ultimate sovereignty over everything including you. If you go before after death and tell him that the price he paid to redeem you was something you felt was meaningless because you think you lived a perfect life, he will not accept that answer. So what you like is meaningless, the only issue is what is true.

Slight sins, for the love...... We kill our children in the womb on an industrial scale, we have created the weapons to annihilate all human life and the moral insanity to have almost used them several times, we have demanded that the 4% of us that are gay have the right to cause 60% of new aids cases, and in 5000 years we have had 300 without a major war, etc.....x a trillions similar problems. If that is only slight sins then what is it you think are major ones? We all hate, lust, lie and steal, etc..... or are you the only exception to have ever lived. BTW if you want to keep mentioning Hell then what I understand Hell to be is the absence of God and all that he comes with. In other words God gives you exactly what you chose, you did not want him and so that is what you get. Whatever form Hell is at the moment I do not know but I believe it is eventually annihilation.

It does not matter what you prefer or what anyone or everyone prefer. You need to get away from the idea that the only things God can do are things he must ask our permission for before hand. Now if you instead want to argue against God using evidence and leave God as he is instead or projecting your wishful thinking onto reality and resenting that reality does not adjust accordingly. I can argue against what you like or not, I argue for what is true.

That is about the worst conclusion or plan I have ever heard. Besides the obvious fact that seldom to we know the moment we are going to die with enough certainty to make plans like yours. It also requires God to respond to our pleas for salvation. We need to seek him diligently, to be clear headed enough to concentrate on our investigations into the Gospels, and we need to learn sincerity. That takes little effort but it does take a bit of time. I am sure a few people converted on their death bed, but I imagine not enough do to make that something that can be planned on. Now is the time not when your distracted by the pain of cancer, fighting to breathe with pneumonia, or your fixated on the train heading at you.

Again what you think about your life is irrelevant, it will only be what God thinks about your way of life that will matter. You have not won the debate with me, and you cannot win any debate with him.

So far your last paragraph here is the only argument you have made, it is no more correct than all your previous arguments but at least it concerns the correct subject. It does not matter what you think about God's claims, it does matter whether those claims are more likely given the evidence than their negation based on the same. This is the debate we should be having so if you want to continue this discussion, post the best evidence you have that shows the bible is wrong about your sinfulness and God's existence and forget the rest.

First off, if living my way of life I like to enjoy is something that would send me to hell and that my plan I mentioned would not work, then I might as well send myself to hell then. This Biblical God is a complete waste of my time and not even worthy of my recognition if this is who He is. If I have to live like a slave to Him and live according to His commands and expectations, then I am not even going to bother living like that.

I am going to give up on Him for this very reason and just toss the image of Him out of my mind (ignore Him). I will continue my way of life and will not repent from it as though I have a personal right to that life. It does not matter how you justify God's decision in resenting me and sending me to hell, an all loving God in my eyes would never do such a thing to someone like me.

As for a debate, go on YouTube and watch the videos of many atheist and materialistic skeptics. Listen to the types of arguments they put to the table. There is so much that I can't point out anything. But you will get the idea when you watch these YouTube videos.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I am aware of what the Bible says about the wicked which is that if they do not accept Jesus and repent, they will go to eternal hell. But what about an innocent person who has lived a sinful life?

This person would be someone who lived a homosexual life or someone who lived a selfish life their entire life, but was still a kind and respectful innocent person towards others.

This person never repented or anything because he/she thought that there was nothing wrong with his/her way of life.

He/she thought that it was not sinful at all because as long as he/she was kind and innocent towards others, he/she would think that what he/she is doing is not sinful and would not send him/her to hell at all.

It would be the most cruel and unfair thing to send an innocent person to hell. Also, what about someone who has bad harmful thoughts towards others, but didn't harm anyone? Would they go to hell?

First of all, going to heaven is not fair either. Nobody deserves to go to heaven. Second of all, burning forever in hell sounds a notch better than not existing at all. After a million years in hell you probably are somewhat used to it. Consider that a million years is quite a long time, so of course after a million years there would probably not be that many surprises. I'm sure some people would be playing chess in their heads by then, such as those Buddhist monks who do things like burn themselves to death. I mean they burn themselves alive in protest, so hell is something they can probably handle if they're given a million years to do it.

But let us suppose that hell is as unfair as you say. Ok, so its unfair. Since when does fairness enter the equation? Is life fair? Are we all the same? No we are not. I mean, Michael Jackson lives a life of luxury and dies drugged to the hilt while the rest of us are sweeping floors and getting into trouble for things we aren't responsible for. What indication is there that life is fair or that the afterlife will be either?

 

[1robin]

First off, if living my way of life I like to enjoy is something that would send me to hell and that my plan I mentioned would not work, then I might as well send myself to hell then. This Biblical God is a complete waste of my time and not even worthy of my recognition if this is who He is. If I have to live like a slave to Him and live according to His commands and expectations, then I am not even going to bother living like that.

If you wind up in Hell it will be 100% you, that sent you there. You are not going to deprive him of anything by your stubborn desire to do whatever you wish, but either in the end you will loose everything you ever had or if no God exist you will be still looses everything. So the only hope possible is God and yet are turning your back on the only hope any of us have. So you are living in the most unwise manner possible, and this points to the exact reason why it is God should be in charge of reality instead of you.

I am going to give up on Him for this very reason and just toss the image of Him out of my mind (ignore Him). I will continue my way of life and will not repent from it as though I have a personal right to that life. It does not matter how you justify God's decision in resenting me and sending me to hell, an all loving God in my eyes would never do such a thing to someone like me.

I never said he resented you, he paid an infinite price to redeem you, and he cares so much for you he will allow you to accept what he bought and paid for so you can live in eternal contentment or to allow you to reject him and his free gift and suffer for eternity by getting exactly what you wanted, NO GOD. What he will not do is act in whatever way you demand he should, and from what I have seen so far I am very grateful for that fact.

As for a debate, go on YouTube and watch the videos of many atheist and materialistic skeptics. Listen to the types of arguments they put to the table. There is so much that I can't point out anything. But you will get the idea when you watch these YouTube videos.

I would bet every penny I have and could borrow that I have seen 10 professional debate videos for every one you have. For crying out loud I bet I have on this PC more transcripts of debates I have read than you have read and watched combined. As bad as the arguments are coming from Atheist philosophers and biologists (of all things), they are much better than those you have made here, even people like Hitchens, Ehrman, Dawkins, Dennet, Carol, Harris and the rest know very well that what you prefer or wish was true has no roll in any debate.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

If you wind up in Hell it will be 100% you that sent you there. You are not going to deprive him of anything by your stubborn desire to do whatever you wish, but either in the end you will loose everything you ever had or if no God exist you will be still looses everything. So the only hope possible is God and yet are turning your back on the only hope any of us have. So you are living in the most unwise manner possible, and this points to the exact reason why it is God should be in charge of reality instead of you.

I never said he resented you, he paid an infinite price to redeem you, and he cares so much for you he will allow you to accept what he bought and paid for so you can live in eternal contentment or to allow you to reject him and his free gift and suffer for eternity by getting exactly what you wanted, NO GOD. What he will not do is act in whatever way you demand he should, and from what I have seen so far I am very grateful for that fact.

I would bet every penny I have and could borrow that I have seen 10 professional debate videos for every one you have. For crying out loud I bet I have on this PC more transcripts of debates I have read than you have read and watched combined. As bad as the arguments are coming from Atheist philosophers and biologists (of all things), they are much better than those you have made here, even people like Hitchens, Ehrman, Dawkins, Dennet, Carol, Harris and the rest know very well that what you prefer or wish was true has no roll in any debate.

If I was God, then I think it would be much wiser to put me in charge. I would make sure the wicked people who harm others change. I would inflict suffering upon them until they change, but would not condemn them to eternal hell. As for the types of harmless people like me who are nice, kind, and don't make the lives of others miserable, I would be perfectly fine with their ways of life. So how is the Biblical God being in charge instead better than me being in charge? If I was in charge, then nice and kind harmless people like me would not have to even fear of going to hell.

I wouldn't even deem their ways of life as being sinful in the first place unlike this judging God who sees virtually everything as a sin. If this God wasn't so judgmental, then He would be like me if I were the one in charge. It is the very fact that He is so judgmental that He judges virtually everything we do as sin and condemns us to hell. If He wasn't like that, then there would of been no need to have His son sacrificed.

The judgments, drama, and extreme measures this God goes to over every little thing He judges to be sin is just simply absurd. Living for and obeying someone like a slave is not the only way to love someone and to be connected with them. I don't live for my family and don't have any desire to live for them, but I still love them and am still connected to them.

It would just be absurd for them to condemn me to hell, to say that I reject them, don't love them, etc. just simply because I don't dedicate my life to them and just sit at my computer and live to enjoy my hobbies. Even if I have chosen to be disconnected from this Biblical God and to reject Him, then if He were all loving, He would still take me in into His Kingdom.

He would have too much love to just send me to hell to be tortured forever. He would want me to be happy no matter what. That is how much love He would have for me if He were truly all loving. I am not harming anyone else or making anyone's life miserable, so that is why an all loving God would take me in and want me to be happy.

Lastly, I am debating God's love. I consider this a valid debate because if I can prove this God is not all loving, then that would disprove the Biblical God. It would mean that all the evidence you say exists for this God is not evidence at all.

 

[1robin]

If I was God, then I think it would be much wiser to put me in charge. I would make sure the wicked people who harm others change. I would inflict suffering upon them until they change, but would not condemn them to eternal hell. As for the types of harmless people like me who are nice, kind, and don't make the lives of others miserable, I would be perfectly fine with their ways of life. So how is the Biblical God being in charge instead better than me being in charge? If I was in charge, then nice and kind harmless people like me would not have to even fear of going to hell.

I wouldn't even deem their ways of life as being sinful in the first place unlike this judging God who sees virtually everything as a sin. If this God wasn't so judgmental, then He would be like me if I were the one in charge. It is the very fact that He is so judgmental that He judges virtually everything we do as sin and condemns us to hell. If He wasn't like that, then there would of been no need to have His son sacrificed.

The judgments, drama, and extreme measures this God goes to over every little thing He judges to be sin is just simply absurd. Living for and obeying someone like a slave is not the only way to love someone and to be connected with them. I don't live for my family and don't have any desire to live for them, but I still love them and am still connected to them.

It would just be absurd for them to condemn me to hell, to say that I reject them, don't love them, etc. just simply because I don't dedicate my life to them and just sit at my computer and live to enjoy my hobbies. Even if I have chosen to be disconnected from this Biblical God and to reject Him, then if He were all loving, He would still take me in into His Kingdom.

He would have too much love to just send me to hell to be tortured forever. He would want me to be happy no matter what. That is how much love He would have for me if He were truly all loving. I am not harming anyone else or making anyone's life miserable, so that is why an all loving God would take me in and want me to be happy.

Lastly, I am debating God's love. I consider this a valid debate because if I can prove this God is not all loving, then that would disprove the Biblical God. It would mean that all the evidence you say exists for this God is not evidence at all.

This is just more of the same in a debate you already suggested you do not want to have.

No, debating God's love is not where you need to start. The first thing necessary in a debate with a person like you is the integrity of the Biblical textual tradition which is the only place a non Christian can go to evaluate God's love. Now do you want to start there or do you want to spend your time explaining why God must do as you prefer?

There are only two sources of divine knowledge concerning the God I believe in. 1. The Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit is only available to born again believers in almost every category that applies here. 2. Holy scripture, this one is available to all but is not understandable to all in the same way. No. 2 here is the only thing available to you to reveal who God is. So the first thing we must do is determine if the scriptures we have today match those written 2000 years ago. They do so with an accuracy of between 95% (according to even atheist textual scholars) and 99.5% (according to theologians). So that is my opening claim in the subject matter we need to be discussing. Agree or disagree? and why?

 

[Milton Platt]

I am aware of what the Bible says about the wicked which is that if they do not accept Jesus and repent, they will go to eternal hell. But what about an innocent person who has lived a sinful life?

This person would be someone who lived a homosexual life or someone who lived a selfish life their entire life, but was still a kind and respectful innocent person towards others.

This person never repented or anything because he/she thought that there was nothing wrong with his/her way of life.

He/she thought that it was not sinful at all because as long as he/she was kind and innocent towards others, he/she would think that what he/she is doing is not sinful and would not send him/her to hell at all.

It would be the most cruel and unfair thing to send an innocent person to hell. Also, what about someone who has bad harmful thoughts towards others, but didn't harm anyone? Would they go to hell?

Still waiting for the explanation of how a person can be innocent and sinful at the same time.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

This is just more of the same in a debate you already suggested you do not want to have.

No, debating God's love is not where you need to start. The first thing necessary in a debate with a person like you is the integrity of the Biblical textual tradition which is the only place a non Christian can go to evaluate God's love. Now do you want to start there or do you want to spend your time explaining why God must do as you prefer?

There are only two sources of divine knowledge concerning the God I believe in. 1. The Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit is only available to born again believers in almost every category that applies here. 2. Holy scripture, this one is available to all but is not understandable to all in the same way. No. 2 here is the only thing available to you to reveal who God is. So the first thing we must do is determine if the scriptures we have today match those written 2000 years ago. They do so with an accuracy of between 95% (according to even atheist textual scholars) and 99.5% (according to theologians). So that is my opening claim in the subject matter we need to be discussing. Agree or disagree? and why?

I wish to have a different debate. The one I have been putting up. You must keep an open mind like me in case this Biblical God does not exist and that the skeptic materialists/atheists with their claimed evidence are instead correct. So that is the reason why I am debating the way I am. If this Biblical God really was real and if His nature really was all loving and I believed in Him, then you are right, this debate would be pointless.

But if He doesn't exist, then I would be trying to make clear to you through this debate how this Biblical God is complete nonsense and how it is utter nonsense to think that the nature of this God is all loving. Imagine if I went up to someone who was nice, kind, and harmless who just simply lives to party, go clubbing, dancing, and to enjoy his/her life.

Imagine from there I went up to him/her and condemned his/her way of life by saying that it is sinful and to turn from his/her way of life now, or that I would send him/her to a place of eternal torture. I would obviously be the morally corrupt person here. A morally right person would not judge his/her way of life as sinful in the first place.

Such a morally right person would be perfectly fine with his/her way of life and would then welcome him/her to an even greater life filled with even more bliss and joy. Therefore, this Biblical God is morally corrupt since he judges my harmless and healthy way of living as a sin that would condemn me to hell. If He were morally right, then He would not judge my way of life as sinful at all.

The one and only sin to this morally right God would be if you were someone cruel who harms and tortures others. He would punish you for that until you change your ways, but would not condemn you to an eternal hell. Other than that, He would be perfectly fine with everything else. He would be completely cool with your way of life. You would be free to live however you want, be as happy as you want, party all you want, etc. and then be welcomed to His heavenly kingdom which would be an even more awesome life filled with joy and parties.

While I am on the topic of heaven, I also see the Biblical heaven as a place I wish to have nothing to do with. I wish to have nothing to do with this Biblical God or His kingdom. According to the Bible, heaven would be a boring place where you just worship all day. But my version of heaven and my version of God who would give you any type of heaven you want, then this would be the ideal heaven and the ideal God that virtually everyone would have no issues with.

This God and His heavenly kingdom would be universally compatible with virtually everyone. Virtually everyone would agree that this would be an all loving God and an awesome heaven. Therefore, the very fact that so many people disagree with the all loving nature of the Biblical God and wish to have nothing to do with His heavenly kingdom, that just goes to show you how corrupt this God is and His heavenly kingdom. It shows you how my version of God and heaven would be the true all loving God and the truly awesome heaven.

Lastly, you say that this Biblical God does not resent me. That He truly does love me. Which would mean that He would grieve and weep if I were to be sent to hell by Him for not living the way He expected me to. That just makes no sense. If me burning in hell forever is so tragic to Him, then why would He even send me to hell in the first place when He could easily just take me into His kingdom regardless of how disobedient I was by choosing to live my way of life?

Therefore, that says to me that this type of God is someone who would not find it tragic at all if He sent me to hell. He could care less. Someone as nice and kind as me who harmed no one simply does not deserve that type of horrendous treatment. Some loving God!

 

[viole]

I see. In Islam, sleeping is called the small death as it is believed the soul goes up to the heavens then comes back to the body when we wake up.

Oh dear. A few weeks ago I dreamed of Hitler. He was painting and looked happy. I cannot believe he is in Heaven.

By the way, in France "the small death" has a slightly different meaning. Still related to Heaven, I suppose.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Smart_Guy]

Oh dear. A few weeks ago I dreamed of Hitler. He was painting and looked happy. I cannot believe he is in Heaven.

By the way, in France "the small death" has a slightly different meaning. Still related to Heaven, I suppose.

Ciao

- viole

Cool! I cannot believe Hitler is in Heaven too. But I think he did go to the "heavens" for "some time" when was alive and go to sleep a couple of times at least

Wait, you said you cannot "believe" so. Does that mean he could be in Heaven?

Thanks for the heads up for "the small death" in France. Dunno what triggered this info tho.

 

[viole]

Cool! I cannot believe Hitler is in Heaven too. But I think he did go to the "heavens" for "some time" when was alive and go to sleep a couple of times at least

Odd that I saw him there, tho. Do you think he was stll alive a few weeks ago?

May I ask you a direct question? Do you really believe that when we dream we are really taking a peek at heaven?

Wait, you said you cannot "believe" so. Does that mean he could be in Heaven?

Sure. I wouldn't expect that, but it might be true.

Thanks for the heads up for "the small death" in France. Dunno what triggered this info tho.

i thought it might be helpful. Just in case you meet a nice lady from France, it would not be great if she found out that your concept of "small death" is falling to sleep.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Smart_Guy]

Odd that I saw him there, tho. Do you think he was stll alive a few weeks ago?

Err... okay

May I ask you a direct question? Do you really believe that when we dream we are really taking a peek at heaven?

Nope. Wait, why did you change it to heaven instead of Heaven this time around?

Sure. I wouldn't expect that, but it might be true.

Got it

i thought it might be helpful. Just in case you meet a nice lady from France, it would not be great if she found out that your concept of "small death" is falling to sleep.

I'll keep that in mind, and thank you

She won't tho. I don't have a concept that small death is falling asleep, I have a concept that sleep itself is called the small death.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I don't have a concept that small death is falling asleep, I have a concept that sleep itself is called the small death.

'Unconscious sleep' is like death because the Bible's death is: sleep.
Jesus likened 'all' death to sleep -> John 11:12-14
Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures which also teach unconscious sleep in death:
The dead know nothing -> Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5

Often clergy teach a permanent religious-myth hell of burning forever as being Scripture, although Not Scripture.
There is No fire in biblical hell, just an unconscious sleeping state.
The Bible's hell is temporary because everyone in hell is released from biblical hell when Jesus resurrects the dead out of the grave. ( The Bible's hell is the grave for the sleeping dead ) - Revelation 20:13-14; Revelation 1:18
Emptied-out hell is cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death ' for biblical hell, thus hell will be No more.
Enemy death will be brought to nothing according to 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
No more death equates to No hell/grave ever again.- Revelation 21:4-5

 

[URAVIP2ME]

He was and still is a true teacher, in the Islamic views at least. There is a misunderstanding of the eternity of Hell; it is eternal in existence, but not always eternally sentenced to everyone. Some do go eternally, and some others don't. Also, Jesus, if he went to Hell, he did not as a punishment or a sentence. That's a different story.
I see. In Islam, sleeping is called the small death as it is believed the soul goes up to the heavens then comes back to the body when we wake up.
That's some informative information about your beliefs. Thank you for sharing. Not sure, but it is possible Islam shares it or some of it too. At least his return and his just rule are indeed shared.

So, glad to read ^ above^ that Jesus' return and just rule is shared.
We are all invited to pray for Jesus to come according to Revelation 22:20

According to Acts of the Apostles 2:27 there is No ' if ' that dead Jesus went to hell - Psalms 16:10
So, dead Jesus was Not resurrected to heaven the day he died, but was in the grave ( aka biblical hell )
In the Bible, the soul is the person himself. The soul that sins dies -> Ezekiel 18:4,20
The soul can be destroyed -> Acts of the Apostles 3:23
Adam was mortal. Adam was a mortal soul. Adam went from non-life, to life, and ' returned ' to non-life.
A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before.
Adam simply ' returned ' back to where he started the dust of the earth - Genesis 3:19

Those who are called to reign with Christ in his ' just rule ' are called to heaven - Revelation 20:6; 5:9-10; 2:10
The majority of mankind can have an awakening from death's sleep to a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection back to life on Earth during Jesus ' just rule ' of a thousand years over Earth.
That is why the ' future tense' is used at Acts of the Apostles 24:15 that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.....
That physical resurrection takes place during Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over Earth in justice.
The prophet Daniel will then be ' awakened ' from death's deep sleep - Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13
King David, who also did Not ascend up to heaven, will also then be awakened from death's sleep
- Acts of the Apostles 2:34
Father Abraham, and all those of Hebrews chapter 11, will be awakened from death's sleep to see the fulfillment of God's promise to father Abraham that ALL families of Earth will be blessed, and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed. Blessed with the benefit of being awakened from death' sleep to physically healthy life on a a beautiful paradisical Earth when mankind will see the return of the Genesis healing ' tree of life ' again on Earth .
- Revelation 22:2; Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18

How can biblical hell be eternal for anyone because after everyone in biblical hell is resurrected out of biblical hell, then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell the grave - Revelation 20:13-14

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

In my opinion Sin was made up to control peoples mind. They fear if they sin and if they do then they will have to ask god for forgiveness and it is like really? Some shame people for having sex before marriage. To be honest their is nothing wrong with sex before marriage. It is natural.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

I am aware of what the Bible says about the wicked which is that if they do not accept Jesus and repent, they will go to eternal hell. But what about an innocent person who has lived a sinful life?

If we are going to "hell" for not accepting jesus then their is something wrong there. It is like we are being forced to accept him.

 

[Desert Snake]

I am aware of what the Bible says about the wicked which is that if they do not accept Jesus and repent, they will go to eternal hell. But what about an innocent person who has lived a sinful life?

This person would be someone who lived a homosexual life or someone who lived a selfish life their entire life, but was still a kind and respectful innocent person towards others.

This person never repented or anything because he/she thought that there was nothing wrong with his/her way of life.

He/she thought that it was not sinful at all because as long as he/she was kind and innocent towards others, he/she would think that what he/she is doing is not sinful and would not send him/her to hell at all.

It would be the most cruel and unfair thing to send an innocent person to hell. Also, what about someone who has bad harmful thoughts towards others, but didn't harm anyone? Would they go to hell?

Your idea of a deity, is one who sends people to Hell, for.. ehm not tipping enough?

 

[eilidh dell]

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