Do Mohammed and the Pope provide moral guidance on sex?

[Badran]

Also i would like to ask you something. Why are you so touchy and sarcastic in an offensive way, about the way I view my religion?

I mean there is a story about my prophet, i don't believe it, and gave my reasons for not believing it, and stated my problems with someone using this story as a fact while it isn't. Also if it is a fact, i gave in my first post one of the explanations to why this story would have happened, explanations not invented by me.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Getting moral guidance on sex from Mohammed or the Pope, is like getting financial advice from Bernie Madoff or Corky from Life Goes On.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Also i would like to ask you something. Why are you so touchy and sarcastic in an offensive way, about the way I view my religion?

I mean there is a story about my prophet, i don't believe it, and gave my reasons for not believing it, and stated my problems with someone using this story as a fact while it isn't. Also if it is a fact, i gave in my first post one of the explanations to why this story would have happened, explanations not invented by me.

Don't take things too personally. It's a debate forum. :rainbow1:

I think Mystemia just see's things in a purely logical way, while you obviously take a fair amount on faith.

 

[Smoke]

Getting moral guidance on sex from Mohammed or the Pope, is like getting financial advice from Bernie Madoff or Corky from Life Goes On.

That's what I've been thinking since the thread started. Obviously, they provide moral guidance on sex. The question is whether their guidance is worth anything.

 

[Badran]

Don't take things too personally. It's a debate forum. :rainbow1:

I think Mystemia just see's things in a purely logical way, while you obviously take a fair amount on faith.

I am not really, i understand this a debate forum . But that doesn't mean i should be sarcastic about other people's religion.

Yes i base some of my views on faith, but these things i believe while not having pure factual evidence, are not illogical.

 

[McBell]

You did make claims. If you were asking, you wouldn't give so many options of what my answer would be in the form of questions, you would have asked and waited for my answer. The way i see it, you were saying those claims in the form of questions just to make these presumable answers sound silly. "Or perhaps you will claim they are just wrong?"

Now you are trying to dictate to me my motives?
Your avoidance is shining quite clear now.

As for the part where you say that you know a lot of muslims who believe that the hadiths are holy as the quran. I already answered that, if some muslims do, that is not my responsibility. However, i am born to muslim parents, have been a muslim my whole life, live in an Arab country where the majority of the population are muslims, and Most of these muslims as well as muslims from other Arab countries agree on the following:

That the Hadiths are a crucial and essential part of our religion, we take our teachings from both the quran and Hadiths, so we must take the teachings in them with the same seriousness. That is it. That doesn't mean they are Holy. Nothing is holy in our belief except god and anything that has to do directly with him. However if some use the word holy describing the Hadiths out of mistake or out of emphasis for it's importance or because they just belief that they are holy, that is not my responsibility.

Ah, so it is your opinion that those Muslims who hold the Hadith as holy are wrong?

I do not understand why you are walking on eggshells with your response.

 

[Badran]

Now you are trying to dictate to me my motives?
Your avoidance is shining quite clear now.

I said "The way i see it", so it means i think that's what your doing, that's not dictating.

, so it is your opinion that those Muslims who hold the Hadith as holy are wrong?

It is not my job to tell people what they believe is right or wrong except if they ask me, so i'll wait until someone who believes that asks me. I only say what i believe. If someone believes Hadith's are holy that's their choice, It's just different from my perspective which i already explained, and that is all i intend to do about it.

do not understand why you are walking on eggshells with your response.

you know you can keep saying that for ever, it is still not an argument, it still doesn't prove anything. You keep resorting to these kind of statements as if they help your argument.

 

[McBell]

you know you can keep saying that for ever, it is still not an argument, it still doesn't prove anything. You keep resorting to these kind of statements as if they help your argument.

How would it help my argument?

I do not see how you would think I would think it would.
But hey, whatever floats your boat.

I do, however, find it rather interesting.

 

[Badran]

How would it help my argument?

I do not see how you would think I would think it would.
But hey, whatever floats your boat.

I do, however, find it rather interesting.

Well, i just thought you do because you done it in most of the posts, and some of these sarcastic comments were after a simple or repeated question, so i thought it helps you make a better argument.

Also i hope you understand by now why i don't take these stories seriously. (Based on my perspective) And why do i mind using them as facts.

 

[McBell]

Well, i just thought you do because you done it in most of the posts, and some of these sarcastic comments were after a simple or repeated question, so i thought it helps you make a better argument.

Also i hope you understand by now why i don't take these stories seriously. (Based on my perspective) And why do i mind using them as facts.

Yes, I understand your "build a Mohammad" philosophy.
I just find the idea rather insulting.

But again, whatever floats your boat.

 

[Badran]

Yes, I understand your "build a Mohammad" philosophy.
I just find the idea rather insulting.

But again, whatever floats your boat.

Really? I think i made it clear more than once that i already know facts about him from the quran, and that i am viewing these for further info.

Besides the fact that all the stories and the Hadiths that are agreed upon by most Islamic scholars make one picture that doesn't contradict with itself about how Muhammad peace be upon him was like, so there is not much room for "making your own Muhammad". What's left for you is to just choose wether to believe these stories or not.

 

[Duck]

Do religious figures like Mohammed and the Pope provide moral guidance on the topic of sex that their followers claim?

Like many of you, I recently learned through RF debates that the prophet Mohammed consummated his marriage to his child bride Aisha, by the time she was only 9-years-old.

And if you’ve been watching the news, you’ll know that the Pope himself was/is involved in covering-up the child sex abuse done by his priests.

Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests'| News | This is London

While some Muslims and Catholics have expressed their disgust with these actions, others aggressively defend their religious leaders... often while at the same time condemning sexual relations by two loving, consenting adults of the same sex.

Does anyone else wonder what on earth is going on here, and what the impact is of looking to religious leaders like Mohammed and the Pope for moral guidance on the subject of sex?

I have great difficulty in accepting moral guidance of any kind from the leader(s) of religious organizations that at best see me as mentally ill and at worst worthy of summary execution.

I particularly have issue in accepting moral guidance of any kind from the leader of a religious organization that has been systematically raping children and then blaming it on me and others like me, while also proclaiming that measures intended to minimize the spread of a deadly disease are wrong and will increase the spread of that disease. I have issue with moral guidance coming from someone who has proclaimed that my wish to marry is as grave a threat to humanity as environmental destruction.

I know very little about Islam, and probably less about Mohammed, beyond what I have read on these forums, which I take with a grain of salt. I seriously doubt the potential for moral guidance from any of the abrahamic faiths, and I don't look to them for any. Based on what media exposure I have had to Islam, and the behavior of its adherents (as I have seen in what is probably a very biased environment) I question its moral guidance.

I freely admit that my past exposure to christianity has colored my outlook regarding the moral teachings of any religion having holy sites in Jerusalem. I recognize that this is a pretty bigoted position and I try to compensate in my dealings with others, it is a character flaw I work to overcome.

 

[*Anne*]

Well, what can I say that hasn't already been said?

(I rather like the Buddhist advice to avoid sexual misconduct. At first the direction seems a bit vague, but if you take the time to explore what a healthy sexual relationship consists of, it's not that hard to interpret.)

 

[Badran]

I know very little about Islam, and probably less about Mohammed, beyond what I have read on these forums, which I take with a grain of salt. I seriously doubt the potential for moral guidance from any of the abrahamic faiths, and I don't look to them for any. Based on what media exposure I have had to Islam, and the behavior of its adherents (as I have seen in what is probably a very biased environment) I question its moral guidance.

I freely admit that my past exposure to christianity has colored my outlook regarding the moral teachings of any religion having holy sites in Jerusalem. I recognize that this is a pretty bigoted position and I try to compensate in my dealings with others, it is a character flaw I work to overcome.

I am glad to see that you acknowledge that your position from Islam isn't based on facts, and that your view is a little affected by your exposure to Christianity.

but don't you think it is unfair to judge an entire religion based on the media, and the actions of some of it's adherents.

 

[shahzad010101]

QURAN SAYS " YOUR WIVES ARE YOUR SOWING FIELDS SO ENTER YOUR FIELDS FROM WHERE EVER YOU DESIRE"

Don't have sex with menstruating women. 2:222 QURAN

Have sex with your women whenever, however, and as often as you like. 2:223 QURAN



O children of Adam, we have provided
you with garments to cover your
bodies, as well as for luxury.
But the best garment is the
garment of righteousness…
[7:26]QURAN

O you who believe permission must be requested by your servants and the children who have not attained puberty (awraat) (before entering your room). This is to be done in three instances before the dawn prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the night prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another [24:58].QURAN

 

[Badran]

QURAN SAYS " YOUR WIVES ARE YOUR SOWING FIELDS SO ENTER YOUR FIELDS FROM WHERE EVER YOU DESIRE"

Don't have sex with menstruating women. 2:222 QURAN

Have sex with your women whenever, however, and as often as you like. 2:223 QURAN

002.222 They ask thee concerning women's courses. Say: It is a harmful thing: So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by God. For God loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.

002.223 Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear God. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe.

children of Adam, we have provided
you with garments to cover your
bodies, as well as for luxury.
But the best garment is the
garment of righteousness…
[7:26]QURAN

007.026 O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, - that is the best. Such are among the Signs of God, that they may receive admonition!

you who believe permission must be requested by your servants and the children who have not attained puberty (awraat) (before entering your room). This is to be done in three instances before the dawn prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the night prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another [24:58].QURAN

024.058 O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess, and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence), on three occasions: before morning prayer; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the late-night prayer: these are your three times of undress: outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other: Thus does God make clear the Signs to you: for God is full of knowledge and wisdom.

 

[Badran]

There are other translations also, so it depends on the interpretation of the verse, So please explain what you think they mean.

 

[shahzad010101]

Islam doesnot put restriction on sex between husband and wife however it puts restriction on gay sex , even in that case if the culprits ask forgiveness from God and never do it again then Quran says God will forgive them. Islam beleives in legtamizing the relationship, the man has not only to fullfill the desire for sex but also has to take responsability of keeping that woman, not a one night stand and forget that is why islam permits upto three marriages in case if the man can do justice with all the wives

 

[Badran]

Islam doesnot put restriction on sex between husband and wife however it puts restriction on gay sex , even in that case if the culprits ask forgiveness from God and never do it again then Quran says God will forgive them.

So what you are saying is that god will forgive them if they redeem themselves, ok. But i don't understand what you mean by that or what do want to prove by it.

Islam beleives in legtamizing the relationship, the man has not only to fullfill the desire for sex but also has to take responsability of keeping that woman, not a one night stand and forget that is why islam permits upto three marriages in case if the man can do justice with all the wives

I am sorry but i don't get it, okay Islam teaches that a man must take responsibility to keep that woman (as in marriage if that's what you mean), and as for the multiple marriage it is very restricted and requires certain situations when that is okay to do and it's explanation will show you that it's not really a privilege for men, and if that is what you are objecting to (multiple marriage) then i can explain it further with it's restrictions and why is that rule just for men, but if that is not what you mean, then what are you trying to say? I think i may have misunderstood, you are defending Islam?

 

[TashaN]

There is no comparison at all. The Pope and Mohammed are from two different times and two different societies. Prophet Mohammed lived 1400 years a go were social norms were different than today, while on the other hand, the Pope is still alive and kicking today and he belong to our own time and our own society.