Do the gospels report that Jesus liked his food and wine with nasty people, sometimes to excess?

[oldbadger]

Of course the priests and their lackeys would badmouth JC..

I expect that they did, Dropship, but I also expect that you do believe that God guided the pens of the apostles and they wrote that it was the people who saw these things and commented upon them.... it just wasn't that big a deal to Jesus and isn't to me.

If he was a glutton and a drunk,

That is just not written in my bible, Dropship. I don't know where you got that from. Today we give that word to people who are alcoholics and are almost permanently affected by alcohol.
Many wine drinkers can become affected by wine from time to time and so we use the 'inebriated' which does not have the suggestion of permanent intoxication.

In any event, I wouldn't call Jesus a drunk and nor did the bible. You should read the verses.

 

[oldbadger]

Says somewhere in Psalms that the Messiah's friends will only be those who love and obey him. There were plenty of times Jesus sat with his enemies, even washing the feet of one who would betray him. In one place at a meal the Pharisees were 'vehement' in trying to provoke him.

Yes. But in the passages I have shown, the pens of the apostles all guided by God (yes?) it clearly shows that the people had thought the Baptist to be different from them, weird might be a suitable word, which they called 'having a devil'. THis did not make them his enemies it was just an observation.

What do you think of men living wild outside your community, wearing animal skins and feeding off the migrations and sends of the seasons? Would you think they are sent by God with messages, or a bit weird?

And Jesus drank wine with his friends, so I expect that occasionally he might become inebriated .

Matthew {11:16} But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,..........................{11:18} For John came neither eating
nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. {11:19} The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.

Luke {7:32} They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying,.......................... {7:33} For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. {7:34} The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

 

[oldbadger]

Update......
Some posts use the word 'drunk' and 'a drunk' and I think I need to get rid of these suggestions.

Where I live 'a drunk' is either a permanently intoxicated alcoholic or an idiot who has been caught 'drunk driving'. My bible doesn't mention the word 'drunk' in this context....yours might, if so you could get another translation, maybe?

Where I live a 'winebibber' or one who is 'inebriated' might occasionally drink enough wine to be merry. There is a big difference.

Here we go again:-

Mark {7:15} There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.


Matthew {11:16} But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, {11:17} And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. {11:18} For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. {11:19} The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.

Luke {7:32} They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept. {7:33} For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. {7:34} The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

 

[PruePhillip]

Yes. But in the passages I have shown, the pens of the apostles all guided by God (yes?) it clearly shows that the people had thought the Baptist to be different from them, weird might be a suitable word, which they called 'having a devil'. THis did not make them his enemies it was just an observation.

What do you think of men living wild outside your community, wearing animal skins and feeding off the migrations and sends of the seasons? Would you think they are sent by God with messages, or a bit weird?

And Jesus drank wine with his friends, so I expect that occasionally he might become inebriated .

Matthew {11:16} But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,..........................{11:18} For John came neither eating
nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. {11:19} The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.

Luke {7:32} They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying,.......................... {7:33} For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. {7:34} The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

For what it is worth. IMO John the Baptist came in a manner resembling WHAT THE JEWS
OF THAT TIME THOUGHT THEIR PROPHETS CAME LIKE. As if to say, 'If Elijah himself proclaimed
Jesus was the Messiah, would you believe in Jesus?' And John, the last of the 'Old Testament'
prophets, was that 'Elijah which is to come.' Hence the animal skins and locusts. It was deeply
symbolic.

 

[oldbadger]

For what it is worth. IMO John the Baptist came in a manner resembling WHAT THE JEWS
OF THAT TIME THOUGHT THEIR PROPHETS CAME LIKE. As if to say, 'If Elijah himself proclaimed
Jesus was the Messiah, would you believe in Jesus?' And John, the last of the 'Old Testament'
prophets, was that 'Elijah which is to come.' Hence the animal skins and locusts. It was deeply
symbolic.

Hello PP. Interesting thoughts.......
I think that the Baptist was an absolutely real person, with a real mission. He was removed from everyday communities, subsisting upon what the seasons offered and what the migrations brought to him. I'll bet that he knew every grub, root, plant and fauna that fate could provide, and those clothes came from what he himself skinned, dried and beat to suppleness. Because of this I personally mistrust any suggestions that this person as described was in any way symbolic, spun or mystical because that's where the word 'mythical' might be insinuated....not from you, but from the sceptics and cynics.

Such a one would today most probably be viewed as 'odd' by most people, so much for them and their loss. I used to hunt in Convicts' Wood, Whitstable, Kent... the last refuge of French prisoners of war before they were led to the coast for shipment back to France (Napoleonic Wars). A man lived in this wood, quite wild, through most of the year and only foresaking the place in the most severe winters for warmer refuges. The very few people who knew about him were mostly scared about him and nearly all thought he was a nutter. I often spoke with him and he was amazing. That's tended to drive how I think many people in early 1st century Palestine could have been quite cautious about such as John........ a man 'with a devil'. They (mostly) weren't his enemies.... they were just shy of him.

 

[firedragon]

Now you have a nice day, firedragon. Don't overdo anything.

Sometimes, I drink too much tea.

 

[1213]

...
What do you think about those folks who said they thought the Baptist 'had a devil' ei a bit of a nut?

If you mean this:
For John the Baptizer came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man, and a drunkard; a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’
Luke 7:33-34

I think that shows the people who made the accusations were hypocrites. It was really not about what people do and say, but about what people represents and that the leaders didn't like opposition. Reminds me of current world leaders that for example said, the don’t take vaccine, when it was Trump vaccine, but now that it is Biden vaccine, everyone must take it.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I acknowledge your belief about the Lord Jesus Christ, FP.

Sweet.

I believe that Jesus didn't pay much attention to all those previous prophets, and I think he really enjoyed eating and drinking with his friends those taxmen and sinners all.

I disagree with the first half - but agree with the last.

I believe that one of the reasons that the Lord Jesus Christ entered into mortality was to fulfill both the law and the prophets.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17)

And He went on to say that anyone who broke any of the "least commandments" and taught others to do so would be considered the "least in the kingdom of heaven". (Matthew 5:19)

This is not even to mention that He often referenced the law and the prophets in His teachings.

He could not fulfill the law or the prophets - and He certainly couldn't teach from them - if He didn't pay attention to them.

If he was a winebbibber as claimed by witnesses then I personally wouldn't think any the worse of him.

The quote about the Lord being a "winebibber" was from Himself while He was criticizing the current generation of Jews.

He was claiming that no man was received as a prophet among them. They honored none of God's servants because they found some frivolous reason to reject them.

John the Baptist came - and as an avowed Nazarite - refused to eat or drink anything from the vine - not uncommon - yet they claimed that he "hath a devil".

And when the Lord Jesus Christ came among them - eating and drinking as anyone would do - they claimed that He was gluttonous and a "winebibber." (Matthew 11:18-19)

He was ridiculing the Jews for their unwillingness to accept God's servants. For setting unrealistic - and unauthorized - standards.

And I believe that the Baptist may well have seemed strange to folks who lived within the community..... I think that is exactly what would happen today.

Perhaps today - but not so then.

They had other Nazarites among them - and other religious groups of people - who swore never to drink wine or strong drink.

So I will believe what the bible says about all this. If any people want to pick and choose from the verses then that is their right.

I agree - I shall believe and do the same.

God bless.

 

[PruePhillip]

Hello PP. Interesting thoughts.......
I think that the Baptist was an absolutely real person, with a real mission. He was removed from everyday communities, subsisting upon what the seasons offered and what the migrations brought to him. I'll bet that he knew every grub, root, plant and fauna that fate could provide, and those clothes came from what he himself skinned, dried and beat to suppleness. Because of this I personally mistrust any suggestions that this person as described was in any way symbolic, spun or mystical because that's where the word 'mythical' might be insinuated....not from you, but from the sceptics and cynics.

Such a one would today most probably be viewed as 'odd' by most people, so much for them and their loss. I used to hunt in Convicts' Wood, Whitstable, Kent... the last refuge of French prisoners of war before they were led to the coast for shipment back to France (Napoleonic Wars). A man lived in this wood, quite wild, through most of the year and only foresaking the place in the most severe winters for warmer refuges. The very few people who knew about him were mostly scared about him and nearly all thought he was a nutter. I often spoke with him and he was amazing. That's tended to drive how I think many people in early 1st century Palestine could have been quite cautious about such as John........ a man 'with a devil'. They (mostly) weren't his enemies.... they were just shy of him.

Actually, you don't need to have faith in the existence of John the Baptist. He is one of the
few that is noted by other historians - Josephus.
And when the disciples asked shouldn't 'Elijah come first' Jesus said that Elijah HAD come
first 'and they did with him as they pleased.'

 

[oldbadger]

Sometimes, I drink too much tea.

Me too! I think I'll put the kettle on, yet again.

 

[oldbadger]

Actually, you don't need to have faith in the existence of John the Baptist. He is one of the few that is noted by other historians - Josephus.

I don't have faith like that, PP.
I feel absolutely sure that the Baptist was a real person.
He is reported in a few depositions, not least of which is Mark's.

 

[firedragon]

Me too! I think I'll put the kettle on, yet again.

Shifted to plain tea. All this dieting and less carbs thing. I hate it but I also love it.

 

[oldbadger]

Sweet.

I disagree with the first half - but agree with the last.

Well, sure. That's been among the church's dogmas for millennia so it would be tough to change now, for many folks.
I have no difficulty with any of it.

You might have noticed how posts on this thread have used the words 'drunk' or 'drunkard'. Neither were used in the KJV bible accounts. Today we (mostly) could use the word 'drunk' for a DUI driver, or a day-by-day alcoholic, but we could use the word 'inebriated' or 'winebibber' for folks who might occasionally have good drinking session.

Sadly Christians seem to have made Jesus's drink 'bad'.... sad.

He could not fulfill the law or the prophets - and He certainly couldn't teach from them - if He didn't pay attention to them.

Please show your source of the law which forbade wine. Without wine Palestinians were going to be very sick or dead.

The quote about the Lord being a "winebibber" was from Himself while He was criticizing the current generation of Jews.

Not true. Jesus loved the (Galilean) Jews...they were his own ...

John the Baptist came - and as an avowed Nazarite - refused to eat or drink anything from the vine - not uncommon - yet they claimed that he "hath a devil".

He probably did look very strange to the people. He would look strange to us. I've got no problem with that.

And when the Lord Jesus Christ came among them - eating and drinking as anyone would do - they claimed that He was gluttonous and a "winebibber." (Matthew 11:18-19)

I don't think you know how Jesus ate and drank, FP. I personally hope he enjoyed his meat and wine immensely..... to excess, even. That this is a big issue for anybody is very strange to me, because folks who are judgemental about 'too much food and wine' might not take too much notice of other much more serious actions, like gathering mammon to them. I see lots of rich Christians and Jesus said that these are 'toast'!

They had other Nazarites among them - and other religious groups of people - who swore never to drink wine or strong drink.

Can I have a source for that? I don't think you'll find one that tells us about Nazarites living in townships, nor surviving drinking the water.

God bless.

All the Best, FP

 

[PruePhillip]

I don't have faith like that, PP.
I feel absolutely sure that the Baptist was a real person.
He is reported in a few depositions, not least of which is Mark's.

I accept your point. But on these forums, where 'evidence' is king it's sometimes nice
to bring up evidence. John's sole focus was upon Jesus, even happy to see his little
gathering leave him to follow Jesus. We have no 'evidence' for Jesus, but John is there
for the skeptics.
And that's why I was so intrigued last week with the news about Sodom and Gomorrah.
It demonstrates how one key story of the Old Testament now has a scientic basis, not
that's of any interest to those who believe.

 

[Dropship]

I don't think you know how Jesus ate and drank, FP. I personally hope he enjoyed his meat and wine immensely..... to excess, even...

No doubt Jesus had no objection to meat--
God said- "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything" (Genesis 9:3)

Likewise with wine, he had no quarrel with that either because he changed water into wine, Mary probably said something like "Hey sweetie, the caterers have messed up, can you pull some of that miracle stuff to help us out?"
He also drank wine with his chums at the last supper-
"I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom” (Matthew 26:27-29)

PS- Personally I've never drank wine or any other type of booze, tried a few sips in my early teens but it all tasted like cat pee to me so I've avoided it ever since except when naughty women have tried to get me drunk at office parties and i've gone along with it to be a good sport.
First thing I noticed was that the earth's axis had developed a pronounced tilt and I couldn't walk straight, then my consciousness began to shrink and was confined to the four walls of the room instead of extending into the far reaches of the universe like before, and I felt as if I was cocooned in cotton wool.
Next day after i'd sobered up i was glad to get my brain back..

 

[RabbiO]

@Dropship -

I’m confused.

First you say you’ve never drunk wine or harder spirits except for a few sips in your teens because it tasted like cat urine. Fair enough and we’ll put aside the question of how you knew it tasted like cat pee, the answer to which I’m not sure anybody really wants to know.

However, you then go on to indicate that you have, in fact, imbibed more than once at office parties.

 

[oldbadger]

No doubt Jesus had no objection to meat--
God said- "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything" (Genesis 9:3)

Sure.
And...

Mark {7:15} There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

Likewise with wine, he had no quarrel with that either because he changed water into wine, Mary probably said something like "Hey sweetie, the caterers have messed up, can you pull some of that miracle stuff to help us out?"
He also drank wine with his chums at the last supper-
"I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom” (Matthew 26:27-29)

No probs.

...and yet so many folks look down or sideways at alcohol.
Look at Muhammad and Bahaullah.

PS- Personally I've never drank wine or any other type of booze, tried a few sips in my early teens but it all tasted like cat pee to me so I've avoided it ever since except when naughty women have tried to get me drunk at office parties and i've gone along with it to be a good sport.

I'm liking the sound of that...... naughty women..... the joys... but my wife is more brilliant that any, to me, so I'm lucky there. Very lucky.

First thing I noticed was that the earth's axis had developed a pronounced tilt and I couldn't walk straight, then my consciousness began to shrink and was confined to the four walls of the room instead of extending into the far reaches of the universe like before, and I felt as if I was cocooned in cotton wool.
Next day after i'd sobered up i was glad to get my brain back..

Ah... Yeah..... Well.... Jesus wouldn't have had a problem with that.
Think about it. If he had got even slightly merry it wouldn't have been him wobbling about, it would have been the whole World.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Well, sure. That's been among the church's dogmas for millennia so it would be tough to change now, for many folks.

The "church" has believed that the Lord Jesus Christ "paid attention" to previous prophets.

Yes - that is their "dogma" - because it is clearly recorded in the New Testament that He studied and knew the words of the prophets.

I have no difficulty with any of it.

I get the feeling that you think I claimed that I had difficulty with the idea that the Lord Jesus Christ "really enjoyed eating and drinking with his friends those taxmen and sinners all" - but that is not so.

That is the part of your comment that I agreed with.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Physician to the entire human race - not to mention our Lord who loves us all - so of course He enjoyed eating and drinking with his friends, taxmen and sinners all.

If He didn't eat and drink with sinners - then He wouldn't have ate and drank with anyone.

You might have noticed how posts on this thread have used the words 'drunk' or 'drunkard'. Neither were used in the KJV bible accounts.

The KJV tended to use "drunken" when referring to a person who got inebriated - or listed the effects of said inebriation - as well as referring to various effects of other sins.

Genesis 9:21 - "And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent."

This "drunken" spell led to Ham's descendants being cursed.

Isaiah 29:9-13 - "Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:"

Isaiah claimed that the to be "drunken" is not only a reference to drinking too much alcohol - but to refusing God's servants and the revelation they bring.

To be "drunken" is to have one's heart "removed" far from God and to accept falsehoods about God which are taught by men - and not God's servants.

Isaiah 63:6 - "And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

That was an example of the KJV using the word "drunk" as we would.

Jeremiah 23:9 - "Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the Lord, and because of the words of his holiness."

Drunken men cannot withstand or understand the words of God's holiness.

Luke 12:45 - "But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;"

We will assume incorrect things and be caught unaware if we allow ourselves to be drunken - either in alcohol or sin.

Acts 2:15 - "For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day."

The people believed that those speaking in tongues were "drunken" - but Peter corrected them claiming that it was too early for these people to be drunk - proving that the KJV definitely associated being "drunken" with drinking alcohol in excess.

Ephesians 5:18 - "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;"

Another example of the KJV using the word "drunk" as we would - and how being "drunk" can cause us to miss out on being filled with the Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-8 - "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation."

Paul likened being "drunken" to being "asleep" - or those who become complacent - and he claims that they are "in darkness".

Revelation 17:2 - "With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication."

Revelation 17:6 - "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration."

Again - "drunk" being used as we would - but in reference to committing sins - such as fornication and murder.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I believe that the scriptures clearly condemn the practice of drinking alcohol in "excess" to the point where we are "overcome" by the alcohol - when we start to "stagger", lose our "strength", having our hearts "broken" and our bones "shake".

For by so doing we could miss out on the effects of the Spirit - which would have helped us avoid committing sin - and not notice the signs of the Second Coming of the Lord and be caught unaware.

Paul - in his first epistle to the saints in Thessalonica - likened being "drunken" to not having faith, love or hope of salvation.

John was shown - in the Revelation - that those who commit fornication (which the angels likened to "wine") and the shedding of innocent blood are "drunken".

I believe that in order for us to be an active participant in our salvation - a true disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ - we need to "be filled with the Spirit", remain "sober" so that we can "[put on] the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation" and refrain from various sins - such as fornication and murder - that would cause us to be "drunken".

The Lord Himself likens being "drunken" with being in a "deep sleep", with our eyes closed, with the servant's of God "covered" - which leads us to be unable to interpret the things of God - for we are "far removed" from Him and believe falsehoods over the truth.

We need to remain sober - both body and spirit - by resisting drinking in excess and committing sin - in order to have the Spirit with us and the correct interpretation of the Word of God.

Today we (mostly) could use the word 'drunk' for a DUI driver, or a day-by-day alcoholic, but we could use the word 'inebriated' or 'winebibber' for folks who might occasionally have good drinking session.

No - the word "winebibber" meant someone who was a habitual drinker of alcohol - especially wine - and was regarded as a "drunkard" or alcoholic.

Sadly Christians seem to have made Jesus's drink 'bad'.... sad.

I don't know why they do that - the New Testament clearly records Him drinking wine - but I would claim that the wine He drank is not comparable to the wines we drink today.

No where in the Old or New Testament is the drinking of wine - or other alcoholic beverages - condemned.

Only the practice of drinking to "excess" or becoming "drunken" were taught against.

Please show your source of the law which forbade wine. Without wine Palestinians were going to be very sick or dead.

I cannot - for none exists - the Law of Moses did not forbid drinking wine.

I never claimed otherwise

Not true. Jesus loved the (Galilean) Jews...they were his own ...

No - this is not accurate at all - the opposite is true.

Mark 6:1-6 - "And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.

And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching."

The Galilean Jews were "offended at him" - which caused the Lord Jesus Christ to lament - that a prophet is "without honour" in "his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house."

Their refusal of Him - and overall lack of faith - made it difficult for Him to perform miracles among them - and He was "marvelled" by the degree of their unbelief.

He probably did look very strange to the people. He would look strange to us. I've got no problem with that.

No - a nazir - a person who takes upon themselves the vows of the Nazarite - is part of the Law of Moses - the entire 6th chapter of Numbers.

It was not "very strange" to the Jews for people to become a nazir (which means "separate" or "crown") and they were often considered "consecrated" or even "holy" while their vows were in effect.

Yet - the Jews at the time of the Lord Jesus Christ - did not honor John the Baptist for being a nazir - but they claimed that "he hath a devil" - which is contrary to the Law of Moses.

I don't think you know how Jesus ate and drank, FP. I personally hope he enjoyed his meat and wine immensely..... to excess, even.

That would be contrary to the Law and the prophets.

No where is the drinking of wine forbidden - but drinking "to excess" was most definitely condemned and likened to being mired in sin by God through His prophets.

That this is a big issue for anybody is very strange to me, because folks who are judgemental about 'too much food and wine' might not take too much notice of other much more serious actions, like gathering mammon to them. I see lots of rich Christians and Jesus said that these are 'toast'!

The Lord's use of the word "mammon" is not a reference to "wealth" or having "having riches" - but to being "in service" to wealth and riches - rather than to God.

Basically - He was condemning Man's tendency to devote ourselves to our riches - causing us to worship them - over God.

I mean - if money was bad - then how could the Lord Jesus Christ eat and drink "to excess" - as you claim?

You need money to buy food and drink - so obviously the Lord Jesus Christ had no issue with money in the general sense.

Can I have a source for that? I don't think you'll find one that tells us about Nazarites living in townships, nor surviving drinking the water.

Numbers 6:2-3 - "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the Lord:

He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried."

All the Best, FP

/bow

 

[Dropship]

@Dropship -

I’m confused.

First you say you’ve never drunk wine or harder spirits except for a few sips in your teens because it tasted like cat urine. Fair enough and we’ll put aside the question of how you knew it tasted like cat pee, the answer to which I’m not sure anybody really wants to know.
However, you then go on to indicate that you have, in fact, imbibed more than once at office parties.

Nice attempt to try to ensnare me in my own words mate, but it falls flat, just like the snooty Jewish priests tried to ensnare Jesus in his own words and failed miserably..