Do the gospels report that Jesus liked his food and wine with nasty people, sometimes to excess?

[RabbiO]

Nice attempt to try to ensnare me in my own words mate, but it falls flat, just like the snooty Jewish priests tried to ensnare Jesus in his own words and failed miserably..

Nothing of the kind. I simply asked for clarification because what you wrote is contradictory.

That aside, the fact that you feel compelled to try to tie what I wrote, simply on the basis of my being a Jew, to what you call "snooty Jewish priests" says more about you and your own prejudices than anything else.

 

[Dropship]

Nothing of the kind. I simply asked for clarification because what you wrote is contradictory.
That aside, the fact that you feel compelled to try to tie what I wrote, simply on the basis of my being a Jew, to what you call "snooty Jewish priests" says more about you and your own prejudices than anything else.

Personally i've always liked Jews because they're warm friendly people and seem to have broken their old habit of killing prophets, so they're all right by me, I've worked at two jewish family-owned firms and got on great with them, and am a big Judge Judy fan..

 

[oldbadger]

The "church" has believed that the Lord Jesus Christ "paid attention" to previous prophets.

Yes - that is their "dogma" - because it is clearly recorded in the New Testament that He studied and knew the words of the prophets.

I get the feeling that you think I claimed that I had difficulty with the idea that the Lord Jesus Christ "really enjoyed eating and drinking with his friends those taxmen and sinners all" - but that is not so.

That is the part of your comment that I agreed with.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Physician to the entire human race - not to mention our Lord who loves us all - so of course He enjoyed eating and drinking with his friends, taxmen and sinners all.

If He didn't eat and drink with sinners - then He wouldn't have ate and drank with anyone.

The KJV tended to use "drunken" when referring to a person who got inebriated - or listed the effects of said inebriation - as well as referring to various effects of other sins.

Genesis 9:21 - "And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent."

This "drunken" spell led to Ham's descendants being cursed.

Isaiah 29:9-13 - "Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:"

Isaiah claimed that the to be "drunken" is not only a reference to drinking too much alcohol - but to refusing God's servants and the revelation they bring.

To be "drunken" is to have one's heart "removed" far from God and to accept falsehoods about God which are taught by men - and not God's servants.

Isaiah 63:6 - "And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

That was an example of the KJV using the word "drunk" as we would.

Jeremiah 23:9 - "Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the Lord, and because of the words of his holiness."

Drunken men cannot withstand or understand the words of God's holiness.

Luke 12:45 - "But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;"

We will assume incorrect things and be caught unaware if we allow ourselves to be drunken - either in alcohol or sin.

Acts 2:15 - "For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day."

The people believed that those speaking in tongues were "drunken" - but Peter corrected them claiming that it was too early for these people to be drunk - proving that the KJV definitely associated being "drunken" with drinking alcohol in excess.

Ephesians 5:18 - "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;"

Another example of the KJV using the word "drunk" as we would - and how being "drunk" can cause us to miss out on being filled with the Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-8 - "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation."

Paul likened being "drunken" to being "asleep" - or those who become complacent - and he claims that they are "in darkness".

Revelation 17:2 - "With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication."

Revelation 17:6 - "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration."

Again - "drunk" being used as we would - but in reference to committing sins - such as fornication and murder.

...... and none of it, any of it, spoken by Jesus.
Actions speak louder than words.

And yet so many Christians who would make such a fuss about a man enjoying his meat and wine, possibly to excess sometimes, disregard the things that Jesus made much of. It would be better of they quoted Jesus and followed his advice, such as :-

Mark {10:25} It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

So much fuss about inebriation, so much hypocrisy over mammon. It's no good, FP.

 

[oldbadger]

Personally i've always liked Jews because they're warm friendly people and seem to have broken their old habit of killing prophets, so they're all right by me, I've worked at two jewish family-owned firms and got on great with them, and am a big Judge Judy fan..

Oh dear.....! After all the genocides of the North American tribes, the holocaust, the troubles....... best to hide, I think.

 

[oldbadger]

Nice attempt to try to ensnare me in my own words mate, but it falls flat, just like the snooty Jewish priests tried to ensnare Jesus in his own words and failed miserably..

One moment Christians rant about Jewish Priests, the next they rant about 'The Jews'.
Jesus, of course, was pulling for nd on behalf of the Jewish people. Not gentiles. He said so.

 

[oldbadger]

I believe that the scriptures clearly condemn the practice of drinking alcohol in "excess" to the point where we are "overcome" by the alcohol - when we start to "stagger", lose our "strength", having our hearts "broken" and our bones "shake".

How dreadful! Shocking!
But Jesus said nowt about it, acted as he wanted to, and spoke out against Mammon which Christians mostly clutch to themselves, and overlook, and even think of ways to refutre his words.

Now we're getting somewhere.

 

[Dropship]

One moment Christians rant about Jewish Priests, the next they rant about 'The Jews'.
Jesus, of course, was pulling for and on behalf of the Jewish people. Not gentiles. He said so.

Better check out your bible again mate, JC came for EVERYBODY..-

Jesus said-"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16)

Paul said -"For this is what the Lord has commanded us: 'I have made you a light for the gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' (Acts 13:47)

 

[oldbadger]

Better check out your bible again mate, JC came for EVERYBODY..-

Jesus said-"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16)

Jesus said differently. And that John he never ever knew Jesus.

Paul said -"For this is what the Lord has commanded us: 'I have made you a light for the gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' (Acts 13:47)

Paul. .... Paul never knew Jesus

These people built a Church for gentiles.

 

[Dropship]

..John he never ever knew Jesus.
Paul never knew Jesus
These people built a Church for gentiles.

You haven't been paying attention to your sunday school teacher mate.
John was one of the disciples, and Paul spoke to the risen Jesus on the Damascus road, so their street cred is off the scale.

And the early churches were for ALL Jesus's followers whether jewish or not..

 

[oldbadger]

You haven't been paying attention to your sunday school teacher mate.
John was one of the disciples, and Paul spoke to the risen Jesus on the Damascus road, so their street cred is off the scale.

And the early churches were for ALL Jesus's followers whether jewish or not..

Thanks for your reply, Dropship.
I paid more attention to what John wrote, and from his gospel I know that he was not the disciple John.
That in itself is worth its own thread, I suppose.

As for Saul, a man who bust his contract with the priesthood and went off on some other course altogether, I know he never met Jesus. You see, he didn't have the first clue about any thing that Jesus did in all of his mission except what he heard in the last hours days.

 

[Dropship]

As for Saul, a man who bust his contract with the priesthood and went off on some other course altogether, I know he never met Jesus. You see, he didn't have the first clue about any thing that Jesus did in all of his mission except what he heard in the last hours days.

Saul was a bounty hunter on the payroll of the snooty priests, with the job of rounding up Christians for punishment, but he was knocked off his feet on the Damascus road by an instantaneous download of the holy spirit which taught him all about Jesus in an instant.
So he changed his name to Paul (below) and became one of the greatest christians of all..

 

[oldbadger]

Saul was a bounty hunter on the payroll of the snooty priests, with the job of rounding up Christians for punishment, but he was knocked off his feet on the Damascus road by an instantaneous download of the holy spirit which taught him all about Jesus in an instant.
So he changed his name to Paul (below) and became one of the greatest christians of all..

I'll accept that he had s blinding idea on that road. He was contracted to obtain payments or attendance of Folks who were not keeping Temple feasts as required.

 

[wellwisher]

This isn't intended as a dig at Jesus, by the way.
The thought that he enjoyed his food and drink makes me feel good for him.
That he ate and drank with unpopular folks I don't mind at all.
But some Christians can be infuriated by the idea that their God might have got inebriated sometimes.

Here are some references for your scrutiny and comments:-

Mark {2:15} And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him. {2:16} And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?

Mark {7:15} There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which
come out of him, those are they that defile the man.


Matthew {11:16} But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, {11:17} And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. {11:18} For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. {11:19} The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.

Luke {7:32} They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We
have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept. {7:33} For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. {7:34} The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

John {2:7} Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. {2:8} And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare [it. ]{2:9} When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew ....

Jesus was a carpenter which was/is a good paying blue collar job. Jesus would have had blue collar friends and coworkers in the trades. It would be normal for a group of hard working tradesmen, to go out together to have a meal and beverages at the local watering hole. At a job site, both sinners and non sinners can become friends when there is professional respect; team spirit.

All that hard work, eating and drinking would be part of the training Jesus would need to withstand the series of tortures he would soon face. He would need to be strong, healthy and well fed so his body could keep going.

Wine is a central Christian symbol. When one drinks alcohol, the censorship part of the brain can shut off, and what is being hid behind a mask of censorship is brought into the open. Truth is not who we pretend to be, but is often what comes out when we lower our inhibitions. Jesus got to see good people open up, who had been judged by the Pharisees as sinners.

It must have been a pretentious times with alcohol a type of truth detector.

 

[oldbadger]

Jesus was a carpenter which was/is a good paying blue collar job. Jesus would have had blue collar friends and coworkers in the trades. It would be normal for a group of hard working tradesmen, to go out together to have a meal and beverages at the local watering hole. At a job site, both sinners and non sinners can become friends when there is professional respect; team spirit.

All that hard work, eating and drinking would be part of the training Jesus would need to withstand the series of tortures he would soon face. He would need to be strong, healthy and well fed so his body could keep going.

Wine is a central Christian symbol. When one drinks alcohol, the censorship part of the brain can shut off, and what is being hid behind a mask of censorship is brought into the open. Truth is not who we pretend to be, but is often what comes out when we lower our inhibitions. Jesus got to see good people open up, who had been judged by the Pharisees as sinners.

It must have been a pretentious times with alcohol a type of truth detector.

What a wonderful idea.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Jesus was a carpenter which was/is a good paying blue collar job. Jesus would have had blue collar friends and coworkers in the trades. It would be normal for a group of hard working tradesmen, to go out together to have a meal and beverages at the local watering hole. At a job site, both sinners and non sinners can become friends when there is professional respect; team spirit.

All that hard work, eating and drinking would be part of the training Jesus would need to withstand the series of tortures he would soon face. He would need to be strong, healthy and well fed so his body could keep going.

Wine is a central Christian symbol. When one drinks alcohol, the censorship part of the brain can shut off, and what is being hid behind a mask of censorship is brought into the open. Truth is not who we pretend to be, but is often what comes out when we lower our inhibitions. Jesus got to see good people open up, who had been judged by the Pharisees as sinners.

It must have been a pretentious times with alcohol a type of truth detector.

There is nothing in the Torah that forbids wine. In fact, drinking four cups of wine is part of the Passover Seder for Jews (such as at the last supper). I'm not sure where you got the idea that alcohol is supposed to be a truth detector. It is, first of all, a way of preserving and sterilizing drink, and secondly a way to relax and have fun, such as at the wedding at Cana.

 

[oldbadger]

Jesus was a carpenter which was/is a good paying blue collar job. Jesus would have had blue collar friends and coworkers in the trades.

There was no middle class, or blue collar class, WW. There was the High class (mostly Levites) and the peasant orders.
The only people who got to rise above those orders were the successful merchants and Brigands. King Herod had been a brigand.

 

[oldbadger]

There is nothing in the Torah that forbids wine. In fact, drinking four cups of wine is part of the Passover Seder for Jews (such as at the last supper). I'm not sure where you got the idea that alcohol is supposed to be a truth detector. It is, first of all, a way of preserving and sterilizing drink, and secondly a way to relax and have fun, such as at the wedding at Cana.

Absolutely! And the gospels show that Jesus liked his food and drink. I suspect that water could be a killer, back there and then.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

...... and none of it, any of it, spoken by Jesus.
Actions speak louder than words.

And yet so many Christians who would make such a fuss about a man enjoying his meat and wine, possibly to excess sometimes, disregard the things that Jesus made much of. It would be better of they quoted Jesus and followed his advice, such as :-

Mark {10:25} It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

So much fuss about inebriation, so much hypocrisy over mammon. It's no good, FP.

The Lord Jesus Christ claim that He had come to fulfill both the Law and the Prophets.

It was because He lived according to the Law and the teachings of the Prophets that He could justly call out the hypocrisy of the Jewish elders - who claimed to live by both but didn't.

I have provided ample evidence that God - through His Prophets - abhorred drunkenness.

The New Testament is full of examples of the Lord Jesus Christ quoting from the Law and the Prophets.

I understand your lazy argument of, "Jesus didn't specifically talk about X - so it's ok."

But that is an argument made from ignorance.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

How dreadful! Shocking!
But Jesus said nowt about it, acted as he wanted to, and spoke out against Mammon which Christians mostly clutch to themselves, and overlook, and even think of ways to refutre his words.

Now we're getting somewhere.

Aw - the classic, "I'm losing this argument so I'll bring up a random topic to distract everyone from my epic fail!"

*Slow Clap*

 

[oldbadger]

The Lord Jesus Christ claim that He had come to fulfill both the Law and the Prophets.

Source please!

It was because He lived according to the Law and the teachings of the Prophets that He could justly call out the hypocrisy of the Jewish elders - who claimed to live by both but didn't.

Jesus did not live by the law! He disregarded several 'everyday' laws. Do I need to teach you about this?

I have provided ample evidence that God - through His Prophets - abhorred drunkenness.

Enjoying your meat and wine, maybe sometimes to inebriation, doesn't mean you live in drunkenness or food excess. Jesus liked his meat and wine.

The New Testament is full of examples of the Lord Jesus Christ quoting from the Law and the Prophets.

Christians insist that Jesus REDACTED all the Old Testament Laws. You need to make your mind up.

I understand your lazy argument of, "Jesus didn't specifically talk about X - so it's ok."

But that is an argument made from ignorance.

Just stick to what Jesus said and did, FP.
I'm neither ignorant nor lazy (a bit insulting of you....yes?) ........ I just remember about what Jesus said and did and you don't seem to.