Do You Know Why You Don't Believe?

[Super Universe]

SuperUniverse,
Nevertheless, perhaps you could give an example of a revelation that all theists in the world agree to?

I disagreed with your assertion that virtually none of the revelations agree with each other. I did not assert that all theists agreed.

All revelation has been absolutely correct and true, humans are the ones who messed it up. Hinduism has the chakra's correct. Catholics have forgiveness correct. Native Indians are correct in that every living thing is endowed with some level of spirit energy that gives it life. Muslims are correct in that there is only one God. Buddhism has an enlightened view of human personalities.

One man calls it "Wasser", another man calls it "Agua" but the water does not change from place to place.

 

[KingM]

All revelation has been absolutely correct and true, humans are the ones who messed it up. Hinduism has the chakra's correct. Catholics have forgiveness correct. Native Indians are correct in that every living thing is endowed with some level of spirit energy that gives it life. Muslims are correct in that there is only one God. Buddhism has an enlightened view of human personalities.

And only you are wise enough to put all the pieces together.

 

[Jose Fly]

S-U,

How about this one, God exists, the communication is exclusive between He and your soul, revelation to your human personality comes either from another source (think guardian angel) or from reduced frequency memory insertion directly from your soul.

Why? Because you say so? Why are your unsubstantiated assertions about "god" any more valid than those from someone else who disagrees with you?

Do you see a God in the universe? I do. I see Him in children laughing. I see Him in a forest of Redwoods. I see Him in nebula's and stars. I see Him in a racist's tattoo's.

When I see those things, I see children laughing, redwoods, nebula's, stars, and tattoos. Perhaps you can point to something specific inherent in those things that is "god"?

You see what you wish to see

Given that you're the one claiming to see "god", this applies to you more than me. And yes, I would agree that you're seeing only what you want to see.

A universe working all on it's own? Uh, not quite. I wonder why there's no life on Mercury, Venus, Mars, or the moon?

????? That doesn't make any sense. Why does a universe that works on its own necessitate having life on every planet?

I'll ask again: By what means do we differentiate between a universe that was created by a "god" and one that "just is"?

Energy is transformed all on it's own? Transformed into what?

Other forms of energy.

The universe looks completely natural? Compared to what?

It looks completely natural because all we see going on around us are completely natural processes. If you disagree, point to something specific that is a completely non-natural process.

How does complex organization form in chaos? It doesn't on it's own.

Sure it does. All you need is energy running through the system and you get order. And the universe has energy in spades.

 

[Panda]

I should have to justify and give evidence for what I believe and you shouldn't?

Quite the ego you've got going there...

I never said the bible is evidence. I never said God performs miracles.

Why even respond if none of you are going to answer the OP?

What you are asking is like trying to prove that a bottle of milk just isn't there. It is simple you look and it just is not there. I you read what I wrote you would see that I do justify not believing in God, it is because there is no proof of him. For evidence, will why don't you present evidence for the bottle of milk not being their except that it isn't there? That is what you are asking me to do.

 

[Jose Fly]

S-U,

All revelation has been absolutely correct and true, humans are the ones who messed it up. Hinduism has the chakra's correct. Catholics have forgiveness correct. Native Indians are correct in that every living thing is endowed with some level of spirit energy that gives it life. Muslims are correct in that there is only one God. Buddhism has an enlightened view of human personalities.

Again, why? Because you say so? Who are you such that we must take your bald assertions about what is and isn't true as unquestioned gospel?

 

[Super Universe]

Distant from bible thumpers?
"Too often souls build selfish personalities and thus they are not allowed to ascend up the dimensional ladder and return to heaven (God's Son controls the access)"
Your version of God has a son too? Doesn't sound so distant from Christianity to me. I'll admit I am selfish and try to remedy that daily. The most effective way to rid oneself of selfishness is to have children....you are forced to put another life before yours and before too long you become less selfish as a result.

I can almost buy into this line of thinking, sounds harmless enough.

I agree becoming less selfish is one of the higher hallmarks a human should strive for but I'm still confused as to how you know this benchmark is what gains you entrance into heaven. Who told you this? Did you make it up?
Ahhhh, so now you're a part of the Godhead?

Maybe some would say that my version of Christianity is not too distant from mainstream but then, how many Christians think Christ is the Son of God and not God Himself?

You are selfish sometimes? Ahh, finally! Thank you for admitting that. I know how hard it is. I don't mean to get you down about it, we all are to varying degrees. We're supposed to be. Our souls want to see what happens when our personality has a free run of things. Do we tear everything up or have we learned to control our personalities and matured?

Now, if you could see one more thing. Your children are yours, they are an extension of you and not a stranger. Can you view another person, one you have never met (maybe even one you do not like) as an equal to you? Can you provide help to someone who is undeserving? Can you assist someone who is lost even though you have no reason to? Can you do this and receive nothing in return? No one should know.

Gaining control over your selfishness does not get you into heaven, it only gets you to the next level. We have so much more to learn before we find heaven. It's farther away than you can imagine.

Who told me this? That's a tough one to answer, I'd rather not at this time. Did I make it up? Nope, I'm not nearly that smart. I'm terrible at discovering new things but exceptional at putting them together in ways no one ever thought of before.

I'm part of the Godhead? Not sure what you mean by that. I'm just doing what I'm supposed to, I'm a volunteer, just another worker bee supporting the hive...

 

[w00t]

S-U,



Again, why? Because you say so? Who are you such that we must take your bald assertions about what is and isn't true as unquestioned gospel?

Like many of his ilk SU appears to be so taken up with his own rightness he can't see the wood from the trees!

 

[UnTheist]

What is the reason you don't believe in God? Or the reason you're not absolutely positively sure God exists?

I'd guess the number one reason is because people see bad things happening all around them and can't understand why God would allow it to happen.

No. It's because there is no evidence for God, regardless of what I want to happen in this world.

Now the key question, where would you rate your own ego as a reason and do you realize it's the main reason?

Why is my ego the main reason? And what exactly do you mean by that?

 

[Panda]

Like many of his ilk SU appears to be so taken up with his own rightness he can't see the wood from the trees!

Be nice he just has strong beliefs, quite a few of us do.

 

[w00t]

Be nice he just has strong beliefs, quite a few of us do.

Quite, but just because they are strong doesn't make them right!

 

[Panda]

Quite, but just because they are strong doesn't make them right!

Nope but this is a debate forum so strong opinions should be expected. Anyway maybe he is right, maybe you are or me or anyone. We just don't know

 

[Super Universe]

S-U,



Why? Because you say so? Why are your unsubstantiated assertions about "god" any more valid than those from someone else who disagrees with you?



When I see those things, I see children laughing, redwoods, nebula's, stars, and tattoos. Perhaps you can point to something specific inherent in those things that is "god"?



Given that you're the one claiming to see "god", this applies to you more than me. And yes, I would agree that you're seeing only what you want to see.



????? That doesn't make any sense. Why does a universe that works on its own necessitate having life on every planet?

I'll ask again: By what means do we differentiate between a universe that was created by a "god" and one that "just is"?



Other forms of energy.



It looks completely natural because all we see going on around us are completely natural processes. If you disagree, point to something specific that is a completely non-natural process.



Sure it does. All you need is energy running through the system and you get order. And the universe has energy in spades.

All of it is God, looking for a specific thing is like saying that only first base is baseball.

I am seeing what I want to see but not "ONLY" what I want to see. You think I like dealing with selfish people each day who could care less about the person standing next to them? I see you too.

I can't define the level of proof you need to believe. It's up to you. I was once an athiest too, there was just no way I would believe in God because I thought God was represented by the religions and they are all hosed up.

But God has nothing to do with any religion. Even their own books prove that revelation ALWAYS comes to those who DO NOT represent religion. Now I see that I was being stubborn. The proof is everywhere.

Energy is transformed into other forms of energy? Umm, I'm not at all sure what you mean by that.

Point to a completely non-natural process? Okay, life...

So, energy creates physical laws that assemble matter into organized systems? Energy creates time? Energy causes life to form?

 

[Buttercup]

how many Christians think Christ is the Son of God and not God Himself?

Quite a few, actually.

You are selfish sometimes?

I am selfish every day. Not such a great feat to admit.

Now, if you could see one more thing. Your children are yours, they are an extension of you and not a stranger. Can you view another person, one you have never met (maybe even one you do not like) as an equal to you? Can you provide help to someone who is undeserving? Can you assist someone who is lost even though you have no reason to? Can you do this and receive nothing in return? No one should know.

Sure. I've done this many times with complete and total strangers. But, so have most other people.

My best effort was allowing my children to continue to love their father while we were divorcing when I didn't think he deserved it. If you've never been in that situation you have no idea how delicate the balancing can be.

I'm terrible at discovering new things but exceptional at putting them together in ways no one ever thought of before.

We aren't so different. I feel as though I'm also exceptional at putting new thoughts together in ways no one else has thought of too......normally I'm just not egotistical enough to proclaim them outloud. Just teasing you.

 

[Papersock]

What is the reason you don't believe in God? Or the reason you're not absolutely positively sure God exists?

My current knowledge and understanding leads me to believe that it is highly unlikely that any god exists. I have not seen anything that absolutely necessitates that there is a god.

I'd guess the number one reason is because people see bad things happening all around them and can't understand why God would allow it to happen.

That may be part of it for some, but I don't think that is my number one reason.

How would you rate the other reasons not to believe?

What? I'm not sure what other reasons you mean or how to rate them.

Now the key question, where would you rate your own ego as a reason and do you realize it's the main reason?

Is ego anything like self-esteem? I have pretty low self-esteem. My ego actually has nothing to do with my disbelief. You seem to think otherwise.
Reading through this thread, I think it's funny that someone concerned with other people's egos doesn't seem to be lacking any himself.

 

[Super Universe]

No. It's because there is no evidence for God, regardless of what I want to happen in this world.

Your view prevents you from seeing the evidence. Why isn't the universe evidence enough for you that God exists? Why isn't the incredible earth evidence enough? Why isn't life evidence enough of God?

Is it because you are angry that God isn't helping you? Is it because religion has harmed you in some way?

 

[UnTheist]

Your view prevents you from seeing the evidence.

Your view deludes you into seeing evidence

Why isn't the universe evidence enough for you that God exists?Why isn't the incredible earth evidence enough? Why isn't life evidence enough of God?

Because it doesn't follow.

Is it because you are angry that God isn't helping you?

I don't ask for help. I do crap myself.

Is it because religion has harmed you in some way?

Nope. Not even close.

 

[Jose Fly]

S-U,

All of it is God

Again, why? Because you say so? Who are you such that we should take your unsubstantiated assertions as unquestioned gospel?

I can't define the level of proof you need to believe. It's up to you.

I never said anything about "proof". Some actual evidence would be nice. In fact, anything other than bald assertions from you would be a drastic change.

The proof is everywhere

That's a completely meaningless statement. Is that all you have?

Energy is transformed into other forms of energy? Umm, I'm not at all sure what you mean by that.

Take the time to study some very basic physics. One example is how kinetic energy can be transformed into heat energy.

Point to a completely non-natural process? Okay, life...

How so? We've been observing and studying life for centuries now and everything about it is completely natural. It replicates all on its own via completely natural processes, it metabolizes all on its own via completely natural processes, etc.

Point to something specific about life that is non-natural.

So, energy creates physical laws that assemble matter into organized systems? Energy creates time?

Ah, now the dishonest tactics begin....how typical.

You asserted that "order" cannot come from "chaos", and I pointed out that it can quite easily as long as energy is moving through the system. This is very basic physics. And how do you respond? By moving the goalposts and trying to shift the question to "physical laws" and time.

Before I follow you down your latest red-herring, do you concede that order can indeed come from chaos if energy is running through the system?

Energy causes life to form?

Sure. What is "life" but chemistry? If you disagree, point to something specific going on in a cell that isn't chemistry. And we know that chemistry operates via energy.

 

[Super Universe]

Your view deludes you into seeing evidence

Because it doesn't follow.

I don't ask for help. I do crap myself.

Nope. Not even close.

You do crap yourself? Hmm, you grow your own food? Do you grow and stitch your own wool for clothes? Fix your own teeth? Cut your own hair? Do you have an outhouse that you dug and built yourself? Do you have a car that you found all the metal ore for and fabricated into a vehicle all on your own?

Yep, you just do everything yourself...

 

[Super Universe]

S-U,



Again, why? Because you say so? Who are you such that we should take your unsubstantiated assertions as unquestioned gospel?



I never said anything about "proof". Some actual evidence would be nice. In fact, anything other than bald assertions from you would be a drastic change.



That's a completely meaningless statement. Is that all you have?



Take the time to study some very basic physics. One example is how kinetic energy can be transformed into heat energy.



How so? We've been observing and studying life for centuries now and everything about it is completely natural. It replicates all on its own via completely natural processes, it metabolizes all on its own via completely natural processes, etc.

Point to something specific about life that is non-natural.



Ah, now the dishonest tactics begin....how typical.

You asserted that "order" cannot come from "chaos", and I pointed out that it can quite easily as long as energy is moving through the system. This is very basic physics. And how do you respond? By moving the goalposts and trying to shift the question to "physical laws" and time.

Before I follow you down your latest red-herring, do you concede that order can indeed come from chaos if energy is running through the system?



Sure. What is "life" but chemistry? If you disagree, point to something specific going on in a cell that isn't chemistry. And we know that chemistry operates via energy.

Some actual evidence? No, what you want is absolute evidence with no other possible interpretation otherwise you will simply continue to choose NOT to believe.

Absolute evidence does not exist anywhere in this universe. It would require the removal of your ability to choose.

Is that all I have? No, but it's ten times more than you have.

Life is completely natural? Then why isn't it in space? Why isn't it on the moon? On asteroids? On Mars and Venus?

Point to something specific about life that is non-natural? Okay, spirit.

I do not assert that order cannot come from chaos - you shouldn't speak of dishonest tactics when you are doing the same thing. My assertion was that complex order cannot come from chaos.

Chemistry operates via energy? What energy would that be? EMR?

 

[LogDog]

I was once an athiest too, there was just no way I would believe in God because I thought God was represented by the religions and they are all hosed up.

Everyone was once an atheist. We're born that way. At what age did you come to accept this theistic mentality and what changed in you that motivated this transformation? When you were an atheist, was it simply the fact that you thought god was represented by religions that motivated your atheism or were there other factors involved? If it hadn't been for your impression that religion represented god, would you have become a believer earlier? For most atheists, it's a lack of evidence for god that motivates their disbelief, was this not the case for yourself?