Do you really think you are helping anyone?

[Thief]

Let's play nice.

Some quotes come from the founder of the faith.

Jesus, has been reported to be 'the way'...'the light' and 'no man enters heaven' but that he keep 'the sayings'.

As Christians come and go...such things will be quoted.

And though Christian are willing to concede other paths.....
Some players do as Christian do...waving their banners.

And complain as they do so.

Everybody thinks they have it right.
Otherwise each one of us would be dropping our beliefs at the first hint of objection.

I dropped the practice of religion for that cause.

I spend my meditations sorting through the most likely 'foundations'.
I then ask...as if rhetorically...what if your quoting is correct?
What if it's true?

I then proceed to display the consequence for the head nodding.

 

[waitasec]

So truth is just a personal realization? What do you mean by this?

If I personally realize that I am 125 pounds (and I am NOT) - does that mean I am, whether I am or not?

no hun..i wish that for me too.

it's not the same, you can verify your weight with empirical evidence.
gravity is understood by all in the same way

with spiritualism/religion/philosophy, these are based on subjective experiences.

 

[sky dancer]

Subjective experience is not always true either. Without microscopes, we cannot see certain forms of life. We may not even know this life exists until we see it.

We cannot see atoms, but we can mathematically plot their movement in space.

We think the label, me, refers to this or that person, but it's just a label. We cannot find 'me' anywhere.

The label is a convenience. It's not truth.

 

[Kathryn]

My musings on truth are directly related to the concept of proselytizing. I am not defending proselytizing. What I am saying is this - we all believe to some extent that our personal belief system is true - or has much truth to it. Hopefully our lives are evidence of our belief system. Surely when we care about others, we want to help them. One way to help others is to offer guidance, to share our experiences, and why we believe as we do.

I think most people do this - regardless of their faith structure or lack thereof. And I believe that sometimes people are arrogant in their approach - and that this arrogance is not limited to people who espouse religious beliefs.

I want to point out that a strong belief system does not necessarily imply arrogance - that arrogance is in the personal character of people, not necessarily in belief systems. It's in the approach, not necessarily the doctrine.

So - when I hear a doctrine that says, "All paths are valid and truthful to those on the path," I want more clarity about that. Does the person saying that actually BELIEVE that, say, Catholicism is just as valid and true, as, say, Hinduism, or Buddhism, or atheism? Do they believe in absolute truths?

This is an important distinction to clarify.

 

[sky dancer]

Absolute truth is beyond conception. Musings about religious paths are conceptual. That's why I feel closest to people who meditate regardless of what doctrinal religious beliefs they have. In silence, hearts are one. We get in trouble when we toss around religous concepts like enlightenment, love, compassion, joy and equanimity, for example.

Buddhists have very specific definitions for those terms. They mean something else to Christians.

We literally speak different languages.

Imposing a new language on someone else without their permission is a form of violence. I cannot even discuss Buddhism without great permission from the people I'm talking to.

 

[Kathryn]

Clearly, you don't like me Kathryn. I'm sorry for that. It seems to offend you that I chose Buddhism instead of Christianity.

I don't like or dislike you. I don't know you.

I do dislike your insistence on trying to make this debate personal. Stick to the objective topic, please. Quit whining.

 

[youfaith]

Pushing your specific beliefs on another can work against you in my opinion. People really must find what fits for them.

 

[waitasec]

My musings on truth are directly related to the concept of proselytizing. I am not defending proselytizing. What I am saying is this - we all believe to some extent that our personal belief system is true - or has much truth to it. Hopefully our lives are evidence of our belief system. Surely when we care about others, we want to help them. One way to help others is to offer guidance, to share our experiences, and why we believe as we do.

I think most people do this - regardless of their faith structure or lack thereof. And I believe that sometimes people are arrogant in their approach - and that this arrogance is not limited to people who espouse religious beliefs.

I want to point out that a strong belief system does not necessarily imply arrogance - that arrogance is in the personal character of people, not necessarily in belief systems. It's in the approach, not necessarily the doctrine.

So - when I hear a doctrine that says, "All paths are valid and truthful to those on the path," I want more clarity about that. Does the person saying that actually BELIEVE that, say, Catholicism is just as valid and true, as, say, Hinduism, or Buddhism, or atheism? Do they believe in absolute truths?

This is an important distinction to clarify.

i sort of agree...but i also think a strong conviction one has "the truth" can lead to arrogance...
like you said, it's best to let the way one lives their life speak for them.

 

[sky dancer]

I don't like or dislike you. I don't know you.

I do dislike your insistence on trying to make this debate personal. Stick to the objective topic, please. Quit whining.

I've extended my hand in friendship. If you choose not to take it, I respect that.

 

[Kathryn]

You are telling me that all faiths cannot be true. That there is only one truth faith--yours. That is dogmatic.

I have neither said nor implied this. At this point, your insistence that I'm saying this, in spite of my repeated statements to the contrary, seem to border on deceit.

 

[Thief]

I wanna play!

Picture the hour of your last breath.

You will stand up or not.
If not...eternal darkness waits for you.
It's not a philosophical idea.
No form of light follows anyone into the ground.

If you stand...anyone having spiritual life could be the one standing over you.
The advantage will be their's.
They will know the language, the territory, and the scheme of things.

You came into this life naked....you leave the same way.
Here in this life your thoughts and feelings are shielded.
In the next...they will see through you as if you are made of glass.
All that was done in secret will be made known.

Judgment follows....no exceptions.

 

[sky dancer]

I have neither said nor implied this. At this point, your insistence that I'm saying this, in spite of my repeated statements to the contrary, seem to border on deceit.

If you don't want to be friends, so be it. What you've said is there can only be one truth. Yours.

We disagree. Big deal. That just makes life interesting.

 

[waitasec]

as far as sharing goes, in my version of Hinduism, which leans to the mystical, truths discovered within oneself are kept there because we strongly believe in 'sacred is secret, secret is sacred, in other words, blabbing merely diminishes the mystical power of that experience. So legitimate teachers will rarely speak of their own realisation, if at all. So no, we don't share. Not because it comes across as arrogant, but because you lose some of the power in sharing. Kind of like sharing with the public intimate moments with your spouse. You may not ever get another intimate moment if you did that.

:clap

this is what i'm talking about...


but this is where i find a problem with christianity...
they are told by jesus to go and preach his message or good news to all nations...
(i have another understanding of this, perhaps for another thread)
christians can't help it...t is a apart of their doctrine

 

[sky dancer]

:clap

this is what i'm talking about...


but this is where i find a problem with christianity...
they are told by jesus to go and preach his message or good news to all nations...
(i have another understanding of this, perhaps for another thread)
christians can't help it...t is a apart of their doctrine

Christians can't help it. They think they corner the market on truth.

 

[Kathryn]

If you don't want to be friends, so be it. What you've said is there can only be one truth. Yours.

This is not what I have said. You are being dishonest, and I believe you know that you are.

There is truth, and there is dishonesty. You are perfectly illustrating this. I have not said nor implied that the only truth can be "my truth." And yet you are claiming that I've said this - as if saying it makes it true.

Sad, really.

Besides that - I prefer that my friends don't accuse me of saying or believing things that I obviously don't say or believe.

 

[waitasec]

Christians can't help it. They think they corner the market on truth.

john 14:6
"I am the way and the truth and the life."

how does one receive this?
is jesus claiming to be the objective truth or subjective truth...

edit:
and do christians believe this to be objective truth?

 

[sky dancer]

Your choice, Kathryn. I have friends that don't agree with me about certain topics. I can live with that. You can't, I guess.

You've spent all morning trying to back me into a corner to say that Buddhism is true and Christianity is not when I've repeatedly stated the opposite.

What's up with that?

You call me dishonest, because you don't like my answers. They don't fit your black and white thinking of what truth is.

If you want to call me enemy, that's your choice.

My practice is to see friends, enemies and strangers as equal.

 

[Kathryn]

I believe that truth is truth. Period. I also believe that we try to burden Truth with a lot of additional baggage that's unnecessary and that dilutes core Truths.

 

[waitasec]

I believe that truth is truth. Period. I also believe that we try to burden Truth with a lot of additional baggage that's unnecessary and that dilutes core Truths.

would the bible be considered as baggage or a part of the core truth?

 

[sky dancer]

john 14:6
"I am the way and the truth and the life."

how does one receive this?
is jesus claiming to be the objective truth or subjective truth...

This is what is true to me. Life is suffering. We suffer in birth, in aging, in illness and in death. We suffer because we don't see that everything in impermanent. We cling to things we must ultimately let go of.

There is a state beyond suffering. There is a path that leads to a state beyond sorrow.

This is the teaching that lead me to take up Buddhism.

If you want to know the context of my personal life story as to why those truths made sense to me I can share that.

Truth is in the moment, it is non-conceptual. It can be pointed to, but the finger pointing is not the truth.

Same way with all paths of spiritual practice. They point to the truth, but they are not the truth. Religions are like fingers that point to truth. The fingers are not the truth.

No religion owns the truth. Truth just is.