Do you really think you are helping anyone?

[Thief]

act upon what?



but i can't lie to myself can i?

So you DO assume assumption to be a lie!

And that technique will leave you standing.

When incoming info fails...and it will...
You will have no choice but to make an intelligent guess....
And step forward, with no more than an assumption.

And you would say this is lying to yourself?

 

[BruceDLimber]

So far as I can tell, NO ONE in thread has even implied they do.

To the contrary!

I repeat the quote:

Do you really think that other people want to hear you chastise their beliefs and tell them they believe wrong...?

This sort of broad-brush attack targets everyone, Baha'is included; hence my response.

Bruce

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Are we to assume the proselytizer has not done "due diligence"?

I didn't say that.

Here's my point: it seems to me that a common sentiment is that as long as the proselytizer is sincere, it's reasonable for him to behave the way he does. What I think should be added to this is that for proselytizing to be reasonable, the facts of the matter (including both the material being proselytized and the factual basis for why the proselytizer thinks that it's necessary and urgent for him to proselytize) should also have been investigated and confirmed to a reasonable degree.

Basically, I'm saying there are two criteria for reasonableness here, not just one. Whether that second criterion is actually met is a separate question.

 

[waitasec]

So you DO assume assumption to be a lie!

no....i have to figure it out for myself...i am not not just going to take anyone's word, it's called being skeptical

And that technique will leave you standing.

i agree...but as i said...just because someone says something is true without me validating it, won't make it true or false for me.

When incoming info fails...and it will...
You will have no choice but to make an intelligent guess....
And step forward, with no more than an assumption.

assumption and an intelligent guess are not synonymous
one is based on facts or past experiences while applying logic and reason.
the other takes something for granted (which isn't reasonable or logical) or accepts it as true without fact.

And you would say this is lying to yourself?

give me the facts, show me the proof, let me experience it for myself; that is my criteria for lying.

 

[blackout]

In so much as you are happy and secure in your way,
others are happy and secure in their own way/s.

They don't want or need your way,
any more than you want or need theirs.

 

[sky dancer]

What about militant atheists? I see a lot of my friends who are atheists actively attempting to convert Christians in our neighborhood? What place do they hold in your opinion?

I have never seen an atheist try and convert a Christian. I have seen atheists assert that there is no god. That's the definition of an atheist, non-belief in god.

 

[Pegg]

True, it does come from from the non-religious side as well. Either way, all it does is come off as condescending and rude. If the goal is to change someone's mind preaching is not the way to go about it.

i am a preacher but i dont go out with the one thought to change someones mind. I go out, first and foremost, because its is a direct bible command for me to do it.

Secondly i go because i know there may be someone somewhere who wants to learn something about the bible. They are the ones we are searching for.

 

[blackout]

I have never seen an atheist try and convert a Christian. I have seen atheists assert that there is no god. That's the definition of an atheist, non-belief in god.

People "push" all kinds of things though.

Not every world view is religious.
Not every attempted "conversion" has to do with religion.

So many people cannot find the place where their domain ends,
and other persons' domains begin.
They do not RESPECT the autonomy of others,
to be who and what THEY choose/want/desire to be.
People are intrusive, opinionated, judgmental, arrogant, pushy, assuming,
righteous, forceful, manipulative, dilusional, misguided and just plain annoying
in their attempts to get everyone around them
to "see, do, live, believe and 'understand'" like they do.
Whether it be religion, philosophy, politics, lifestyle, personal Style,
career, school and education, jobs, 'hobbies',
causes, traditions, status quo... whatever.

This usually begins at home with family, then school.
Work, friends, church, neighbors....
The pressure to "be this" or "that",
because someone else "believes you should be".
It all reduces to pier pressure.
People themSelves are pillars/piers.
We all hold up/ up'hold something, or another.

 

[McBell]

This sort of broad-brush attack targets everyone, Baha'is included; hence my response.

Bruce

That was not a broad brush attack, regardless of how desperately you need it to be one.

That statement is talking about people who do that.
So your reply that you do not do that and your claim that it is some sort of an attack on you tells us much more about your guilty conscience than anything else.

 

[Draka]

To the contrary!

I repeat the quote:



This sort of broad-brush attack targets everyone, Baha'is included; hence my response.

Bruce

As Mestemia has pointed out, it is not a broad brush attack. It is a statement quite obviously directed at those who DO chastise others' beliefs. If that does not apply to you then why take offense at it? Unless there is something in what you do and how you talk with others that would make you think that you could possibly be one of those I am referring to then why strike back?

 

[Draka]

I can tell you now that it isn't.

I take the "approach me rather than me approach you" way of helping people, by people seeing how I act in my daily life.

But before that, I took a different approach. I tried to speak to my friends about Jesus, because I loved them so much, and I desperately wanted them to achieve salvation. There is no arrogance involved. Merely sadness and deep anguish when they reject you. There is no arrogance involved when you believe that your friends and family will suffer in eternal flames because they did not believe in the Christ. There is no arrogance when you realise you have done nothing to try and bring someone to Christ, and in a way feel guilty that you didn't at least try to speak to them about Christ before it was too late. There is no arrogance involved. There is no sense of superiority. The burden of the truth-bearers is not one that can be carried with arrogance or superiority.

Others may think they can. I can't, anyway. Don't think for one moment you can call it an act of unbelievable arrogance. It isn't for me, anyway.

As much as you don't think there is any arrogance involved, others see it plainly. There is arrogance involved when you think you have some great answer others don't have or cannot understand. There is arrogance involved when you think that by your mere belief alone you are somehow better off than others around you. There is arrogance involved when you think, by your sheer words about your religion alone, can somehow "save" someone else. The thought that your beliefs, your words, your religion are that much better and more important and more RIGHT than anyone else's is sheer arrogance. This is what makes proselytizing an act of condescension. This is what makes it so insulting, vile, and disgusting.

 

[waitasec]

As much as you don't think there is any arrogance involved, others see it plainly. There is arrogance involved when you think you have some great answer others don't have or cannot understand. There is arrogance involved when you think that by your mere belief alone you are somehow better off than others around you. There is arrogance involved when you think, by your sheer words about your religion alone, can somehow "save" someone else. The thought that your beliefs, your words, your religion are that much better and more important and more RIGHT than anyone else's is sheer arrogance. This is what makes proselytizing an act of condescension.

well said...

This is what makes it so insulting, vile, and disgusting.

it is arrogance disguised in humility which makes it hard to pinpoint.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

To the contrary!

I repeat the quote:

Do you really think that other people want to hear you chastise their beliefs and tell them they believe wrong...?

This sort of broad-brush attack targets everyone, Baha'is included; hence my response.

Bruce

Do you think that you, a Baha'i, chastising people and telling them that they're wrong helps your case that Baha'is don't chastise people and tell them that they're wrong?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I can tell you now that it isn't.

I take the "approach me rather than me approach you" way of helping people, by people seeing how I act in my daily life.

But before that, I took a different approach. I tried to speak to my friends about Jesus, because I loved them so much, and I desperately wanted them to achieve salvation. There is no arrogance involved. Merely sadness and deep anguish when they reject you. There is no arrogance involved when you believe that your friends and family will suffer in eternal flames because they did not believe in the Christ. There is no arrogance when you realise you have done nothing to try and bring someone to Christ, and in a way feel guilty that you didn't at least try to speak to them about Christ before it was too late. There is no arrogance involved. There is no sense of superiority. The burden of the truth-bearers is not one that can be carried with arrogance or superiority.

Others may think they can. I can't, anyway. Don't think for one moment you can call it an act of unbelievable arrogance. It isn't for me, anyway.

The arrogance comes in the implicit idea behind proselytizing: that regardless of what process of experience, reflection or study went into forming that other person's belief, you know better than they do about what that other person should believe.

To use my analogy of the ship and the lifeboat, it may very well be a matter of arrogance for you to presume that your knowledge of naval architecture and marine engineering is superior to mine when you're saying the ship is sinking and I'm saying that it isn't.

 

[linwood]

I can tell you now that it isn't.

I take the "approach me rather than me approach you" way of helping people, by people seeing how I act in my daily life.

But before that, I took a different approach. I tried to speak to my friends about Jesus, because I loved them so much, and I desperately wanted them to achieve salvation. There is no arrogance involved. Merely sadness and deep anguish when they reject you. There is no arrogance involved when you believe that your friends and family will suffer in eternal flames because they did not believe in the Christ. There is no arrogance when you realise you have done nothing to try and bring someone to Christ, and in a way feel guilty that you didn't at least try to speak to them about Christ before it was too late. There is no arrogance involved. There is no sense of superiority. The burden of the truth-bearers is not one that can be carried with arrogance or superiority.

Others may think they can. I can't, anyway. Don't think for one moment you can call it an act of unbelievable arrogance. It isn't for me, anyway.

Oddy enough your entire post reeks of arrogance.

 

[ChristineES]

Maybe we should just all shut and never tell anyone anything, so that we don't run the risk of ever offending anyone.

 

[linwood]

Maybe we should just all shut and never tell anyone anything, so that we don't run the risk of ever offending anyone.

Matthew 6:6 (New International Version)

6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

 

[waitasec]

Maybe we should just all shut and never tell anyone anything, so that we don't run the risk of ever offending anyone.

i've always maintained the fact that if the religious right didn't stick their noses where it didn't belong we wouldn't be having this conversation right now

throughout history it has been the mission of religion to spread it's ideology around...i never, maybe i'm wrong, read anywhere in any history book that there was an atheistic mission...people going door to door or holding town hall meetings saying, 'hey your delusional, there is no god'

 

[gzusfrk]

Its much easier to be a hearer of the Word than a doer of the Word. Most young christians are hearer's of the Word and are more likley to be preachy. Unless of course you have been called to preach.

 

[ChristineES]

i've always maintained the fact that if the religious right didn't stick their noses where it didn't belong we wouldn't be having this conversation right now

throughout history it has been the mission of religion to spread it's ideology around...i never, maybe i'm wrong, read anywhere in any history book that there was an atheistic mission...people going door to door or holding town hall meetings saying, 'hey your delusional, there is no god'

I get more people at my door trying to sell me newspapers. :beach: