Do you really think you are helping anyone?

[McBell]

I get more people at my door trying to sell me newspapers. :beach:

same here.

In fact, I get more people at my door trying to sell me Girl Scout Cookies....

 

[waitasec]

I get more people at my door trying to sell me newspapers. :beach:

at least newspapers are more practical.... cupons, classifieds

 

[McBell]

at least newspapers are more practical.... cupons, classifieds

Not nearly as good as Girl Scout Cookies.

Thin Mints Rule!!

 

[Draka]

Not nearly as good as Girl Scout Cookies.

Thin Mints Rule!!

Nu uh! Tagalongs all the way!

 

[sky dancer]

i am a preacher but i dont go out with the one thought to change someones mind. I go out, first and foremost, because its is a direct bible command for me to do it.

Secondly i go because i know there may be someone somewhere who wants to learn something about the bible. They are the ones we are searching for.

That's cool. Concentrate on the people who want to learn about the bible. Makes sense.

Doesn't make sense to proselytize other other religions because you don't respect other people's choices. (I use the 'you' generally, not referring to you specifically, Pegg).

 

[sky dancer]

As much as you don't think there is any arrogance involved, others see it plainly. There is arrogance involved when you think you have some great answer others don't have or cannot understand. There is arrogance involved when you think that by your mere belief alone you are somehow better off than others around you. There is arrogance involved when you think, by your sheer words about your religion alone, can somehow "save" someone else. The thought that your beliefs, your words, your religion are that much better and more important and more RIGHT than anyone else's is sheer arrogance. This is what makes proselytizing an act of condescension. This is what makes it so insulting, vile, and disgusting.

Love the sentiment in your post. Your signature line is a hoot, too.

 

[sky dancer]

People "push" all kinds of things though.

Not every world view is religious.
Not every attempted "conversion" has to do with religion.

So many people cannot find the place where their domain ends,
and other persons' domains begin.
They do not RESPECT the autonomy of others,
to be who and what THEY choose/want/desire to be.
People are intrusive, opinionated, judgmental, arrogant, pushy, assuming,
righteous, forceful, manipulative, dilusional, misguided and just plain annoying
in their attempts to get everyone around them
to "see, do, live, believe and 'understand'" like they do.
Whether it be religion, philosophy, politics, lifestyle, personal Style,
career, school and education, jobs, 'hobbies',
causes, traditions, status quo... whatever.

This usually begins at home with family, then school.
Work, friends, church, neighbors....
The pressure to "be this" or "that",
because someone else "believes you should be".
It all reduces to pier pressure.
People themSelves are pillars/piers.
We all hold up/ up'hold something, or another.

I'm sure it's possible for atheists to go door to door proselytizing, I've just never encountered it.

I do understand having enthusiasm for what moves you in life. Some Christians are pushy and arrogant, others are just enthusiastic and mean no harm or insult.

 

[Pegg]

That's cool. Concentrate on the people who want to learn about the bible. Makes sense.

Doesn't make sense to proselytize other other religions because you don't respect other people's choices. (I use the 'you' generally, not referring to you specifically, Pegg).

everyone has some form of belief system though...so naturally we will be speaking to people who already have a religion. But for many people, religion was not a choice but a matter of geographic location or a family tradition

some people are of religions they do not even believe in. Talking to such ones does not constitute a lack of respect because we are not going with the intent on changing their religion...only they can do that. We go with the intent giving them a choice.

 

[waitasec]

everyone has some form of belief system though...so naturally we will be speaking to people who already have a religion. But for many people, religion was not a choice but a matter of geographic location or a family tradition

and tat can be applied to your religion too...

some people are of religions they do not even believe in. Talking to such ones does not constitute a lack of respect because we are not going with the intent on changing their religion...only they can do that. We go with the intent giving them a choice.

until they move on to something different yet again...

 

[sky dancer]

everyone has some form of belief system though...so naturally we will be speaking to people who already have a religion. But for many people, religion was not a choice but a matter of geographic location or a family tradition

some people are of religions they do not even believe in. Talking to such ones does not constitute a lack of respect because we are not going with the intent on changing their religion...only they can do that. We go with the intent giving them a choice.

If you try and convert me from Buddhism to Christianity, by telling me that Buddhism is completely invalid, I wouldn't be able to be your friend, (especially, if you won't take no for an answer). Christianity, Catholicism specifically, was not my choice, but forced on me by family tradition. When I was old enough to choose, I left the RCC and found Buddhism.

Just so you know, I'm never rude to a JW who comes to my door. I merely tell them I'm Buddhist and I appreciate that they are motivated by wanting to keep people from suffering.
I think its rude to tell other people their religious choices are wrong and your path is the only valid one.

 

[Mister Emu]

As much as you don't think there is any arrogance involved, others see it plainly.

Maybe that is just projection.

There is far more arrogance involved in presuming to know the inner workings of the mind of someone you've never met and only have a single behavior to work with than involved in believing you have a religious truth.

There is arrogance involved when you think you have some great answer others don't have or cannot understand.

How is it at all arrogant to think you have an answer, perhaps if you believe others cannot understand it, but just the thought of having an answer in and of itself? Is it arrogant to tell a flat-earther that the world is an oblate spheroid?

There is arrogance involved when you think that by your mere belief alone you are somehow better off than others around you

What do you mean by "better off"?

There is arrogance involved when you think, by your sheer words about your religion alone, can somehow "save" someone else.

That would indeed be arrogance, I might even think it more arrogant than you. I'd also say greater than 90% of Christian proselytizers would never presume this.

The thought that your beliefs, your words, your religion are that much better and more important and more RIGHT than anyone else's is sheer arrogance.

That is absurd, at least two of those can have empirical bases. Beliefs, and words, can most assuredly be more right than others, reference again a flat-earther.

Further, beliefs and words can certainly be better, depending on what you are measuring. For instance, some words can be better at inspiring than others. Some beliefs can be better at promoting peace than others.

Import is at least somewhat in the eye of the beholder, though there can be objective understanding as well. At this moment in time, Islam might just be the most important, as far as worldly concerns go, belief in the world because of the impact it has.

 

[sky dancer]

How can you presume to speak for "90% of Christians who proselytize"?

 

[Mister Emu]

How can you presume to speak for "90% of Christians who proselytize"?

Because I am unabashedly arrogant

Also, I know what Christianity teaches in this regard.

 

[sky dancer]

Because I am unabashedly arrogant

Also, I know what Christianity teaches in this regard.

Arrogant Christians aren't the best PR reps for their faith.

 

[Draka]

Maybe that is just projection.

There is far more arrogance involved in presuming to know the inner workings of the mind of someone you've never met and only have a single behavior to work with than involved in believing you have a religious truth.

Ah, but does not the proselytizer presume to know the inner workings of the mind of someone they are trying to preach to? Are they not presuming that the person they preach to is somehow lacking in regards to spiritual or religious knowledge because they don't believe the same as them? And is it not presumptuous to assume they know better than their poor victim?

How is it at all arrogant to think you have an answer, perhaps if you believe others cannot understand it, but just the thought of having an answer in and of itself? Is it arrogant to tell a flat-earther that the world is an oblate spheroid?

To assume you have the one and only CORRECT answer to the point of feeling you must tell it to everyone else and encourage them to believe as you...that is, in fact, very arrogant...yes.

What do you mean by "better off"?

The whole attitude of being "saved" or having "achieved salvation" and having the opinion that others are not "saved" from some eternal wrath or torture. That attitude in itself is arrogant. That they are specially loved and will get rewarded for their particular belief while others will suffer for not basically agreeing with them. That's what I mean by "better off".

That would indeed be arrogance, I might even think it more arrogant than you. I'd also say greater than 90% of Christian proselytizers would never presume this.

I also have to wonder how you can claim to speak for more than 90% of all Christian proselytizers.

That is absurd, at least two of those can have empirical bases. Beliefs, and words, can most assuredly be more right than others, reference again a flat-earther.

Further, beliefs and words can certainly be better, depending on what you are measuring. For instance, some words can be better at inspiring than others. Some beliefs can be better at promoting peace than others.

Import is at least somewhat in the eye of the beholder, though there can be objective understanding as well. At this moment in time, Islam might just be the most important, as far as worldly concerns go, belief in the world because of the impact it has.

I have yet to see a person who believes in proselytizing their religion honestly believe that their religion is at least equal to, let alone worse, than mine. That their words, their scripture, is equal to mine, let alone worse. That my religion is just as important, in the grand scheme of things, as theirs. If they believed all that, they most likely wouldn't be telling me I'm wrong and I should believe what they believe.

 

[Pegg]

If you try and convert me from Buddhism to Christianity, by telling me that Buddhism is completely invalid, I wouldn't be able to be your friend, (especially, if you won't take no for an answer). Christianity, Catholicism specifically, was not my choice, but forced on me by family tradition. When I was old enough to choose, I left the RCC and found Buddhism.

Just so you know, I'm never rude to a JW who comes to my door. I merely tell them I'm Buddhist and I appreciate that they are motivated by wanting to keep people from suffering.
I think its rude to tell other people their religious choices are wrong and your path is the only valid one.

i agree with you that to go to someones door with the intent of proving them wrong or telling them they are wrong, then that is certainly rude and unnecessary.

the way i see it is that in this life, we all have choices to make. We must choose a path that we believe to be right and we must choose it based on knowledge. I believe that God wants the knowledge of himself to be widely available to all so everyone is given the opportunity to make an informed decision. Being a buddist is fine if that is your informed choice...that is exactly what Gods wants each of us to make - informed choices.

 

[Greyn]

Arrogant Christians aren't the best PR reps for their faith.

^^^^^^^
This.

 

[Wombat]

I'm sure it's possible for atheists to go door to door proselytizing, I've just never encountered it.

Sit back...relax...and prepare to "encounter it": hamster :

[youtube]U58wgn-9Y3c[/youtube]
YouTube - ‪John Safran Atheist door knocking skit‬‏

 

[Thief]

no....i have to figure it out for myself...i am not not just going to take anyone's word, it's called being skeptical

This position is stagnant. As pointed out before....you're stuck.
Having doubt is one thing....failing to proceed is something else.

but as i said...just because someone says something is true without me validating it, won't make it true or false for me.

Holding something as true...without proof is called faith.
We know you lack this ability.

assumption and an intelligent guess are not synonymous
one is based on facts or past experiences while applying logic and reason.
the other takes something for granted (which isn't reasonable or logical) or accepts it as true without fact.

Open a thread for logic and let me know.
It's not what most people think.

give me the facts, show me the proof, let me experience it for myself; that is my criteria for lying.

So you're going to wait for a photo?... a fingerprint?... a repeatable experiment?....
a slap up side the head?

The last one could happen.
Standing up from the flesh, with denial in hand.

 

[waitasec]

This position is stagnant. As pointed out before....you're stuck.

how presumptuous of you...no i'm not. i'm figuring out for myself...meaning there is movement, progress.

Having doubt is one thing....failing to proceed is something else.

but isn't that statement coming from and angle of control?
it's either your way...or no way?
for your information, i am proceeding..just not in your direction
(oh i opened the door for another snooty remark i imagine... )

Holding something as true...without proof is called faith.
We know you lack this ability.

you want to buy some land? send me some cash...
otherwise where is your faith if you don't send me the cash..

Open a thread for logic and let me know.
It's not what most people think.

another assumption on your part....

So you're going to wait for a photo?... a fingerprint?... a repeatable experiment?....
a slap up side the head?

The last one could happen.
Standing up from the flesh, with denial in hand.

sorry, i will not be bullied into believing (not by you), that is what this belief system stands on...and i'm not buying into it