Do you support marriage rights for homosexuals?

[Draka]

firstly what are you reffering to by islamic laws that affect non-muslims?

Why don't you ask a non-Muslim woman who happens to live in an Islamic country who gets raped? SHE gets jailed.

secondly, marriage is a private matter, i agree, but in marriage there too are boundaries, because if i were to rape my wife, we all know what would happen. so what happened to privacy?

Rape is a crime. It has a victim. Falling in love with and being attracted to the same gender is not a crime. There is no victim there. You have every right to marry the woman you love, just not to rape her. Why should there be any difference if I happened to want to marry a woman I might love? I still could not rape her. The laws would apply equally to us. See how that works?

 

[Gharib]

Why don't you ask a non-Muslim woman who happens to live in an Islamic country who gets raped? SHE gets jailed.

no need to ask her, there is no such law in islam that says to punish the rape victim. arab countries are not the representatives of the islamic state. leaders in arab lands are voted into power like non-muslim, muslims have a different way of electing a leader, for one, we don't elect those who make the most false promises, we elect him who has more knowledge of islam. among other things. if you want to have another go at answering that question again, please do so.

Rape is a crime. It has a victim. Falling in love with and being attracted to the same gender is not a crime. There is no victim there. You have every right to marry the woman you love, just not to rape her. Why should there be any difference if I happened to want to marry a woman I might love? I still could not rape her. The laws would apply equally to us. See how that works?

and it's always muslims who are labeled closed minded. i don't know if i should go on with this thread, no offence to you draka, i'm just making a general statement.

 

[Foxfire]

Well, I'm sorry you equate my belief that everything will work out but it will take time for same sex couples to inherit the same rights as heterosexual couples as not caring. I don't think I said anywhere that I don't care.

I beleive they are halfway there. I hope they get what they want. I'm not stopping them. I'll help them if I believe they make a good case for individual cases of wrong doing. Having compassion is possible even when you don't go protest at every protest and even when others think you don't display enough of it.

I've had some time to think about this and I think I just wasted a whole lot of space here explaining my "non-position". I'd like to change my answer now to " Yes, I support marriage rights for homosexuals." I think my verbal diarrhea was a case of simply getting fed up with the news media in this country, poll after poll after poll. You must take a stand, blah, blah, blah. All right and good I suppose. I'm just getting too old for this. I don't go on bandwagons, I look at the road ahead. I am not someone who joins a lot of clubs. I am a cat, and we are notoriously bad in the herd-ability department.

Anyway, enuf said. I'm outta here.

 

[LuisDantas]

firstly what are you refering to by islamic laws that affect non-muslims?

A good example would be the forbiddance of alcohol in Islamic countries. People aren't excused just by virtue of not being Muslims.

secondly, marriage is a private matter, i agree, but in marriage there too are boundaries, because if i were to rape my wife, we all know what would happen. so what happened to privacy?

I don't why you mentioned that. Rape is a violent act. Why compare it to same-sex marriage?

 

[LuisDantas]

Islam speaks for itself:

It is He who created you from clay and then decreed a term and a specified time [known] to Him; then [still] you are in dispute. [6:2]

And We did certainly create man out of clay from an altered black mud. [15:26]

So you are saying that those references to the creation of mankind out of clay are to be understood literally? In effect, that Muslims are forbidden of accepting the reality of biological evolution and its role in the origin of mankind despite it being very much established fact?

 

[McBell]

Islam speaks for itself:

It is He who created you from clay and then decreed a term and a specified time [known] to Him; then [still] you are in dispute. [6:2]

And We did certainly create man out of clay from an altered black mud. [15:26]

Funny, those verses say absolutely nothing about marriage, same sex or otherwise, nor do they talk about you being in any kind of position to speak for all of Islam.

Care to try again?

 

[darkendless]

Funny, those verses say absolutely nothing about marriage, same sex or otherwise, nor do they talk about you being in any kind of position to speak for all of Islam.

Care to try again?

Off topic: Do you remember the 34567 page thread where it was debated whether or not humans were made out of clay. Most frustrating week on my life, I became stupider debating that topic.

 

[McBell]

Off topic: Do you remember the 34567 page thread where it was debated whether or not humans were made out of clay. Most frustrating week on my life, I became stupider debating that topic.

Yes I do.

Perhaps eselam will be back and will tell us what the verses he posted have to do witht he topic at hand...?

 

[Gharib]

Funny, those verses say absolutely nothing about marriage, same sex or otherwise, nor do they talk about you being in any kind of position to speak for all of Islam.

Care to try again?

i'm afraid you've lost track of what you asked me.

 

[Gharib]

Yes I do.

Perhaps eselam will be back and will tell us what the verses he posted have to do witht he topic at hand...?

they have nothing to do with the topic, but everything to do with your question.

 

[Gharib]

A good example would be the forbiddance of alcohol in Islamic countries. People aren't excused just by virtue of not being Muslims.

yes that is one example.

I don't why you mentioned that. Rape is a violent act. Why compare it to same-sex marriage?

i'm sorry but this is the second example i made in order to give you an understanding as to how muslims see homosexuality, don't get me wrong i'm not saying it is like rape, and based on the responses i'm getting around here, it seems like i'll just be going in cirlces, i don't like to do that. i can't continue anymore. thanks for your time.

 

[LuisDantas]

Thank you for your openness, Eselam. I realize it is unpleasant to be questioned like this.

 

[Gharib]

Thank you for your openness, Eselam. I realize it is unpleasant to be questioned like this.

i don't have a problem with being questioned, i just don't see a point in a discussion where i get asked questions but then the answer turns out unpleasent for the questioner, and i have to go in cirles. just read mestemias comments from the start, (thats just 1 example of what i mean)

 

[Draka]

and it's always muslims who are labeled closed minded. i don't know if i should go on with this thread, no offence to you draka, i'm just making a general statement.

I fail to see how I called anyone closed-minded or how I was somehow being closed-minded by merely pointing out the fact that rape is a crime and homosexuality isn't. You are the one who made the argument that marriage is not a "private" matter because you cannot rape your wife and it stay a private matter. That simply cannot be used in comparison to same sex marriage as the act of rape is a crime with a clear cut victim. Two women or two men who happen to love each other an want to spend their lives together is not a crime...in that...it has no victim whatsoever. The marriage between a same sex couple harms no one...inside or outside the marriage. So what possible logical/secular/legal reason would there be to oppose it? Quite simply, there isn't one. There is only certain religious thought that has issue with it, not even most religions, just a handful. So how is that any reason to prohibit legally sanctioned same sex marriage? It isn't. Simply Eselam, you can believe whatever you like, you can internally disapprove of something, you can even voice your opinion that you don't like something...however...there is no reason for you to oppose the legality of something if it not only bring absolutely no harm to anyone else, but can only bring joy and fulfillment to the ones it actually does affect...regardless of your opinion.

 

[Gharib]

I fail to see how I called anyone closed-minded or how I was somehow being closed-minded by merely pointing out the fact that rape is a crime and homosexuality isn't. You are the one who made the argument that marriage is not a "private" matter because you cannot rape your wife and it stay a private matter. That simply cannot be used in comparison to same sex marriage as the act of rape is a crime with a clear cut victim. Two women or two men who happen to love each other an want to spend their lives together is not a crime...in that...it has no victim whatsoever. The marriage between a same sex couple harms no one...inside or outside the marriage. So what possible logical/secular/legal reason would there be to oppose it? Quite simply, there isn't one. There is only certain religious thought that has issue with it, not even most religions, just a handful. So how is that any reason to prohibit legally sanctioned same sex marriage? It isn't. Simply Eselam, you can believe whatever you like, you can internally disapprove of something, you can even voice your opinion that you don't like something...however...there is no reason for you to oppose the legality of something if it not only bring absolutely no harm to anyone else, but can only bring joy and fulfillment to the ones it actually does affect...regardless of your opinion.

look for the earlier statement i apologise if you took it personally, it was never personal and you never called anyone closed-minded, i'm not saying that you did.

i was reffering to this post of mine that everyone failed to understand, and i believe it was intentional rather than just a missunderstanding same goes for my example of the husband raping his wife thing that i mentioned.

i said the following a few pages back:

being homosexual means harming yourself, in islam there are sins with which one harms others, and sins with which one harms ones' self.

with sinning against ones self this is in 2 parts, sinning that is physically punishable and sinning that isn't physically punishable. with that which is punishable if one is caught, he must be punished. if one is not caught and repents then there is no punishment for that sin in the hearafter either if Allah forgives them.
now homosexuality is a sin against ones self that is physically punishable if one is caught/testifies to it. i hope that explains the matter a bit better.

since you cannot see things through my eyes, i have to give you an example of the same meaning:

in a society where robbery is common, would you be helping the situation if the president said let the robbers rob you and then come claim from the governemnt that which you were robbed? does that example make any sense?

now if anyone has difficulty in understanding what a sin means, it means a crime, so substitute all the words 'sin' with crime if you can't understand my point.

if this is unclear, please tell me and i will explain what i mean.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

now if anyone has difficulty in understanding what a sin means, it means a crime, so substitute all the words 'sin' with crime if you can't understand my point.

if this is unclear, please tell me and i will explain what i mean.

Eselam, you do realize that this is about same-sex marriage, not about homosexuality, don't you?

In any country where same-sex marriage is being debated, homosexuality is perfectly legal, and will stay legal regardless of what happens with same-sex marriage.

Your choices are not between homosexuality or not. Your only choices are:

- homosexual people in relationships with legal protection.
- homosexual people in relationships with no legal protection.

Voting against same-sex marriage doesn't say "I'm against homosexuality" as much as it says "I prefer homosexual people to be unmarried".

 

[Vendetta]

I guess some of you prefer to not entertain the "devil's advocate" on why I don't support gay marriage. I think I would pose a greater challenge than esalem I assure you. Besides I am coming from a non religious standpoint which is a lot more difficult to debate against than religious

 

[Vendetta]

Eselam, you do realize that this is about same-sex marriage, not about homosexuality, don't you?

In any country where same-sex marriage is being debated, homosexuality is perfectly legal, and will stay legal regardless of what happens with same-sex marriage.

Your choices are not between homosexuality or not. Your only choices are:

- homosexual people in relationships with legal protection.
- homosexual people in relationships with no legal protection.

Voting against same-sex marriage doesn't say "I'm against homosexuality" as much as it says "I prefer homosexual people to be unmarried".

Good point but people who typically are against same sex marriage are against homosexuality I say this loosely.

 

[Barcode]

I guess some of you prefer to not entertain the "devil's advocate" on why I don't support gay marriage. I think I would pose a greater challenge than esalem I assure you. Besides I am coming from a non religious standpoint which is a lot more difficult to debate against than religious

Ok "devil's advocate" why are you against marriage rights for homosexuals?

 

[Gharib]

Eselam, you do realize that this is about same-sex marriage, not about homosexuality, don't you?

In any country where same-sex marriage is being debated, homosexuality is perfectly legal, and will stay legal regardless of what happens with same-sex marriage.

Your choices are not between homosexuality or not. Your only choices are:

- homosexual people in relationships with legal protection.
- homosexual people in relationships with no legal protection.

Voting against same-sex marriage doesn't say "I'm against homosexuality" as much as it says "I prefer homosexual people to be unmarried".

well in islam what is condemned about homosexuality, is the act of same sex. that act is what warrants the death penalty. i do not know if islam has a punishment for someone who happens to like the same sex. but like all rules in islam that which leads to sin (crime) is also forbiden. maybe that makes sense?